Love and Responsibility

[escimo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm not saying the girl is definitely a thief, but I'm saying the probability is higher for her than for someone who's been raised following ideals of honesty, loyalty, integrity, and so on.

I for one want to believe in inner morality and goodness of people. Something that's nature rather than nurture. If that makes me naive so be it. Don't feel a least bit bad about it. Naturally upbringing plays a big part in forming the morality norms a person lives by but the parents role in this tends to diminish the older the child gets. I think the society itself teaches the most of the norms and nurtures ones conscience. Parents role lies in laying the foundations and in scenario in question I think it's quite impossible to determine what these foundations are like. Still most parents tend to want the best possible future for their children so even if they can't or choose not to live by the socially accepted morals they still tend to do their best teaching them to their offspring. Generalization, I know but still...

Or someone whose interests are in continued loyalty, and who's demonstratedly good at knowing where her interests are. A long term business alliance would have ensured the first half of that... if it'd worked. Now she's just someone they have no real hold over, and whose family has a history of thieving and of abandonning their own.

I know a number of people coming from a wide variety of completely screwed up family backgrounds. To some extent my own is as well. Still the people in question have turned out just fine at least as far as moral values are concerned.
I can give a drastic example of one of my acquaintances. He's a son of a convicted double murderer. His father later died in prison fight in which he killed one of is fellow inmates. So three times killer. The second murder was even an attempt to cover up the first. As a father he was mostly absent but when he was around he usually was drunk of high and was abusive towards his family. Mother of this acquaintance committed suicide when he was 15 years old and he ended up spending the next three years of his life in orphanages and foster homes. I'd say that if you want to pass judgment on him for the actions of his parents the prognosis is quite far from good. You'd be dead wrong though. This acquaintance of mine is one of the most wholesome, honest and moral persons I know. I know that he's been judged by his background and knowing what he's like that just pisses me off. He doesn't even fight back in these situations because he somehow feels that he needs to atone for the sins of his father. That's a trait in him that I really hate.

So, yeah. I certainly think she'd bear watching some more before committing to a long term relationship with her. Note, even if her parents were saints, I wouldn't approve of rushing into marriage, no matter how much "in love" they are. But in the circumstances? I'd definitely like some indication she is committed.

As far as rushing into marriage is concerned I'd say that in the depicted scenario this is not the case. I'd guess that the situation must have been pretty much settled since the guys parents were partnering with the girls parents in business. I doubt that this would have been the case if they wouldn't have approved of her in the first place or if there would have been some uncertainties about the marriage. So... Can't just see how the girl would have changed into a whole another being over night when her parents for what ever reason decided to screw everybody over.

[bbduece]

This marriage is over. She has to realize her family F'D thier own daughter. Plenty of fish in the sea move on because problems will emerge and his fate should he choose to pursue the girl in question will be brutal.

If her parents F'D my parents then they are basically F'ing with me so i wont be so lenient.

Payback Time.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by escimo

I for one want to believe in inner morality and goodness of people. Something that's nature rather than nurture. If that makes me naive so be it. Don't feel a least bit bad about it. Naturally upbringing plays a big part in forming the morality norms a person lives by but the parents role in this tends to diminish the older the child gets. I think the society itself teaches the most of the norms and nurtures ones conscience. Parents role lies in laying the foundations and in scenario in question I think it's quite impossible to determine what these foundations are like. Still most parents tend to want the best possible future for their children so even if they can't or choose not to live by the socially accepted morals they still tend to do their best teaching them to their offspring. Generalization, I know but still...

Even if Nature plays a role (so, does that mean that bad people are born that way, and can't change?), so does Nurture. And in this case, Nurture doesn't look promising.

I know a number of people coming from a wide variety of completely screwed up family backgrounds. To some extent my own is as well. Still the people in question have turned out just fine at least as far as moral values are concerned.
I can give a drastic example of one of my acquaintances. He's a son of a convicted double murderer. His father later died in prison fight in which he killed one of is fellow inmates. So three times killer. The second murder was even an attempt to cover up the first. As a father he was mostly absent but when he was around he usually was drunk of high and was abusive towards his family. Mother of this acquaintance committed suicide when he was 15 years old and he ended up spending the next three years of his life in orphanages and foster homes. I'd say that if you want to pass judgment on him for the actions of his parents the prognosis is quite far from good. You'd be dead wrong though. This acquaintance of mine is one of the most wholesome, honest and moral persons I know. I know that he's been judged by his background and knowing what he's like that just pisses me off. He doesn't even fight back in these situations because he somehow feels that he needs to atone for the sins of his father. That's a trait in him that I really hate.

Yeah, so that's one guy. There are also plenty of people who were born in honest families and grow up to be thieves and murderers. So? It doesn't change the fact that growing up in a family of thieves doesn't spell "trustworthy".

As far as rushing into marriage is concerned I'd say that in the depicted scenario this is not the case. I'd guess that the situation must have been pretty much settled since the guys parents were partnering with the girls parents in business. I doubt that this would have been the case if they wouldn't have approved of her in the first place or if there would have been some uncertainties about the marriage. So... Can't just see how the girl would have changed into a whole another being over night when her parents for what ever reason decided to screw everybody over.

What has changed? Well, they've suddenly learnt she came from a family of thieves, for one. For another, the marriage has changed from "part of a business partnership" to "charity act". As I already wrote, the partnership was a way to bind the two together. It broke, so now it makes sense to make doubly sure she isn't going to leave.

[Xellos-_^]

A relationship is base on trust. can you be sure that she didn't know what her parents were planning or maybe that she knew but didn't tell you. that marriage is doom even if they do get married as there is always going to be some nagging doubt about whether you can trust her or not. and when the marriage hits that rocky patch this incident will come rearing up. it would be better for them both at this stage to go thier seperate ways and maybe down the road try it again.

[Vexx]

And of course, if ya'll read back up the thread --- the whole scenario is just one of those "false choice" binary problems... in the same family as "when did you stop beating your wife".

[Anh_Minh]

Not really. "When did you stop beating your wife?" assumes you've started. "Should they elope at that point?" makes no such assumption. The only problem is that we're working with incomplete data.

[Vexx]

The constructed scenario on which the decision point is to be based on just doesn't stand up under analytical scrutiny. Therefore I see no reason to answer the poll question.

I'm ducking a lot of phone poll surveys recently (politics in the US, meh) which basically do the same thing.

[Thentus]

Thinking and reasoning vs instincts, huh?

Thinking should prevail in this, and I am pro-guy on this one. What kind of crappy parents was that girl raised by? Does she "respect", per se, her parents' decision to basically hit and run? What kind of true personality does that show, and the personality that she was raised to have (by her asshole parents).

Love is blind because love is instinct. Instincts do not require thinking, and when thinking is needed, like in this scenario, you clearly should use it and not fully rely on instinct. If you consider humans to be an advanced race act like it. OK dramatization on that last point...but yeah. Thinking FTW.

Originally Posted by escimo

Hell if you automatically inherit all the bad personality traits of your parents.

You mean literally traits like genetics or traits like -acquired- characteristics.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by FireBorn

some major flaws in this situation:

1) I don't need my parent's permission to get married.

Legally, no. But it's still nice to have. I guess a good part of it is about how the guy was raised.

2) My parents aren't dumb enough to blame the girl if it's truly not her fault.

It's not a matter of blaming her. It's a matter of trusting her for the future. What if her parents resurface, and ask her to steal for them?

There's also the problem that she went from heiress to destitute.

3) I wouldn't date a girl who would be selfish enough to demand something like that.

What, marriage? It's not that uncommon a demand, though the timing here seems off.

4) Even if I did choose the girl, I could still send my parents a check in the mail or send them to a home or something (lol).

so sorry, but this scenario kinda fails

That's really not the issue.


Vexx: I don't know. The actions of the girl seem to - unreasonably - force a binary choice when patience would offer more options, but I don't see what's so unbelievable about theft and family disapproval. I also agree that saying "the company would definitely go under" is probably an exaggeration, but, well, I can see how the son leaving would be a blow.