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Old 2010-02-20, 21:14   Link #281
ShadowSeed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaluckyboy View Post
That is a very interesting theory. But what if there were to be power above Bankai that Ichigo could also learn? Would that make Ichigo's powers closer to 200 or 500?

I was wondering if it might be possible for a Shinigami to learn powers from other beings like Quincy's. That would be weird.
Ah, you missed one thing. It's not 100, it's 100 TIMES. So basicly, ichigo's powwers while using his shikai is 1 in my theory. Shikai = 1, as a formula. So 100 times that strength he has while he is 1, get it?

And i think it could be possible. Ishida already stated that Quincy use the reiatsu floating around the atmosphere to attack. I am sure Shinigami could learn this ability if they would just have enough time.
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Old 2010-02-20, 22:09   Link #282
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One other type of power that really interests me is the power that Chad has. It seems to have roots in Hollow-based abilities and seems to respond around Chad's memories of his Abuelo. I think that these powers might in fact be due to the actual spirit of his Abuelo being channeled through Chad's body. If this is true, then other people might also be able to learn this ability. Both Human and Shinigami.
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Old 2010-02-21, 12:45   Link #283
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Originally Posted by ShadowSeed View Post
.
Fist of all, Bankai modifies USUALLY by 5 to 10 times
(and looking at Ichigo's bankai it is probably 5), then your statement on how ressurecion boost the attack makes some sense so I can go with that but your statement on hollofication double booster just doesn't make sense by far not enough to put it in calculation.
Also the level you control your bankai, your dexterity make another huge difference, so I can't say that this is too accurate.
Plus the statement how Bankai increase you strength to your shikai strength by tenfold, while Ressurecion multiplys your own strength by 10 (let's say this is true)
But then again, what makes you think they stack?
Also Yoruichi said that it multiplys by 10 (let's forget about the 5 - 10 as it won't matter on what I plan to say now)
But that doesn't mean that you have y amount on strength and then have 10y strenght but you have y+x strenght, where x is usually about 9y.
So then saying that z is the boost you get from ressurecion, means:
y+x+z= roughly 20
Why do I think so: simply it doesn't make much sense for the boost you get from bankai to double just cause you get twice as much SPP from an effect.
And even if it multiplies there is no guarantee that it will be 1x10x10 and not 1x10+1x10, as why would Ressurecion raise the boost of Bankai, it just strenghtens your base strength thus it won't effect your Bankai strength boosts.

Also I would say ressurecion is a smaller boost than bankai as most of the time we see that a captains need their bankai to put up against an Arrancars normal form but with just getting a smaller power-up they can overhelm it.
I personally think it is like this:
Captain with SHikai: 1, Arrancar in normal form: 8
Captain Bankai: 10, Arrancar Ressurecion: 10
Captain Bankai Secret Move: 10+2, Arrancar Ressurecion Secret Move: 10+1
Though exept the first line everything is rather spectaculation based so there is no real way to tell if it will be around 20 or 100.

Also everyone is able to draw spiritual energy from the enviroment but Quincys base their battle style on it.
Also as Quincys seem to be normal humans in base traits and their techniques are simple reiatsu control I think Shinigamis could learn it but wouldn't profit them really much.

Also the reason while Chad powers respond the Abuelo cause we all know how resolve can unlimitedly multiply your strength in anime and it is his resolve that actually gets stronger so his ability probably has nothing do to with that guy, but yeah I also remember it being mentioned to be hollow-like but personally I don't wanna see Chad fight cause his battle style is boring, he can do no more than straight pucnhes (I mean at least he could use some martail art to make it more interesting if his move pool is so boring) or shot a straight line attack from his arm or do a really strong punch, which though is a skill it only differs from a normal punch in strength. Also realistically he couldn't defeat anyone as he can't do thing against Steps (Shunko, SOnido, Hirenkyaku(might spelled it wrong) as he doesn't have a equalient of it yet he defeated a privanon, which is annoying in my opinion.
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Old 2010-02-21, 12:56   Link #284
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Old 2010-02-21, 20:57   Link #285
ShadowSeed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyenn View Post
Fist of all, Bankai modifies USUALLY by 5 to 10 times
(and looking at Ichigo's bankai it is probably 5), then your statement on how ressurecion boost the attack makes some sense so I can go with that but your statement on hollofication double booster just doesn't make sense by far not enough to put it in calculation.
Also the level you control your bankai, your dexterity make another huge difference, so I can't say that this is too accurate.
Plus the statement how Bankai increase you strength to your shikai strength by tenfold, while Ressurecion multiplys your own strength by 10 (let's say this is true)
But then again, what makes you think they stack?
Also Yoruichi said that it multiplys by 10 (let's forget about the 5 - 10 as it won't matter on what I plan to say now)
But that doesn't mean that you have y amount on strength and then have 10y strenght but you have y+x strenght, where x is usually about 9y.
So then saying that z is the boost you get from ressurecion, means:
y+x+z= roughly 20
Why do I think so: simply it doesn't make much sense for the boost you get from bankai to double just cause you get twice as much SPP from an effect.
And even if it multiplies there is no guarantee that it will be 1x10x10 and not 1x10+1x10, as why would Ressurecion raise the boost of Bankai, it just strenghtens your base strength thus it won't effect your Bankai strength boosts.

Also I would say ressurecion is a smaller boost than bankai as most of the time we see that a captains need their bankai to put up against an Arrancars normal form but with just getting a smaller power-up they can overhelm it.
I personally think it is like this:
Captain with SHikai: 1, Arrancar in normal form: 8
Captain Bankai: 10, Arrancar Ressurecion: 10
Captain Bankai Secret Move: 10+2, Arrancar Ressurecion Secret Move: 10+1
Though exept the first line everything is rather spectaculation based so there is no real way to tell if it will be around 20 or 100.

Also everyone is able to draw spiritual energy from the enviroment but Quincys base their battle style on it.
Also as Quincys seem to be normal humans in base traits and their techniques are simple reiatsu control I think Shinigamis could learn it but wouldn't profit them really much.

Also the reason while Chad powers respond the Abuelo cause we all know how resolve can unlimitedly multiply your strength in anime and it is his resolve that actually gets stronger so his ability probably has nothing do to with that guy, but yeah I also remember it being mentioned to be hollow-like but personally I don't wanna see Chad fight cause his battle style is boring, he can do no more than straight pucnhes (I mean at least he could use some martail art to make it more interesting if his move pool is so boring) or shot a straight line attack from his arm or do a really strong punch, which though is a skill it only differs from a normal punch in strength. Also realistically he couldn't defeat anyone as he can't do thing against Steps (Shunko, SOnido, Hirenkyaku(might spelled it wrong) as he doesn't have a equalient of it yet he defeated a privanon, which is annoying in my opinion.
Well, you're right about the stacking. I cannot know that for sure, and this is exactly why Tite Kubo has headaches. Because people like us go and email him tons of questions about the series. Anyways, i cannot know that for sure, as i said. It might stack, then again your theory about Resurreccion being a separate power boost is pretty believable. I mean, Zangetsu and Hollow Ichigo aren't really the same guy, right? So they wouldn't have shared powers, meaning their buffing techniques (Bankai, Hollowfication) aren't stacked? But wait. In an episode not mentioned by number, Shirosaki said himself that Zangetsu and him are the same. Each one gains the right to rule as their power grows. So now they ARE the same, meaning they could stack as well. Goddamnit, this fillering around in the anime and messing around in the manga makes my head hurt. Some day, Tite Kubo could release a book about Shinigami, Hollow and Vizored physiology and buffing, stacking, technique physics etc. because otherwise we speculate and ejac- speculate until our heads explode. Wait what.
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Old 2010-02-22, 16:06   Link #286
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They certainly are the same (in the same way like zanpakutos and Shinigamis) and they certainly do stack but whether they add up or multiple each other is unknown and yes some explanation of how exactly it goes wouldn't hurt sometimes in the future.
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Old 2010-02-24, 13:09   Link #287
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tooo much maths it hurts my head
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Old 2010-02-24, 14:32   Link #288
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Quote:
Shirosaki said himself that Zangetsu and him are the same. Each one gains the right to rule as their power grows. So now they ARE the same, meaning they could stack as well.
Complete control over bankai means having Zangetsu on 100%, which leaves Ogichi at 0%, meaning that when Ichigo goes bankai+hollow mask, he is using both effects at the same time (be it 40/60 or 90/10 is unknown). As we all know from DotA, orb effects do not stack :P
To explain a bit better, the spirit density of HM and SS reiatsu is different, Ichigo having both means that: his SS reiatsu (blue) multiplies by bankai, an unknown number of times. By any kind of plot device and character development this can reach infinity...as for his HM reiatsu (black), it augments when using the hollow mask.
Spoiler for manga:
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Old 2010-02-24, 15:04   Link #289
Hyenn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Complete control over bankai means having Zangetsu on 100%, which leaves Ogichi at 0%, meaning that when Ichigo goes bankai+hollow mask, he is using both effects at the same time (be it 40/60 or 90/10 is unknown). As we all know from DotA, orb effects do not stack :P
To explain a bit better, the spirit density of HM and SS reiatsu is different, Ichigo having both means that: his SS reiatsu (blue) multiplies by bankai, an unknown number of times. By any kind of plot device and character development this can reach infinity...as for his HM reiatsu (black), it augments when using the hollow mask.
Spoiler for manga:
There is no way we can say this out for sure but I agree that this is the more logical way BUT HM and SS's reiatsu is not different so naming the two kinds differently doesn't make sense in both realms exist normla Spirit Particle, neutral if you want, while Ichigo has soul reaper reiatsu , and hollow reiatsu,
Also his black and blue reiatsu are not the same as hollow and soul reaper respectives cause in normal bankai he has soul reaper reiatsu but is shown in black actually the types of reitsu aren't really divided by colour, reitsus colour is more like a property of a person.
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Old 2010-02-25, 10:37   Link #290
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At the very least, Kubo has provided us with the fact that HM particles are better (denser) than SS ones (back in the desert, Ishida talking about the atmosphere). A similar statement was made, also by Ishida, during the Bount arc, that SS particles are denser than real world ones, that's why he'd be stronger in SS. So, if there are "normal" spirit particles, those should be on earth. So, that leaves the question: do the different types of reiatsu that Ichigo uses affect his power (HM>SS>default) or are they all the same and just add up?
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Old 2010-02-25, 14:58   Link #291
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Look the only difference is that in HM its density is higher in otherwords, if we cut off a x stere of HM and an x stere of SS, the number or measure of Spirit Particles will be bigger in the HM ones, this is not a matter of quality but a matter of amount.
Plus Hollow reitsu and shinigami reitsu are both different to this spirit particles' quality so really this is totally irrelevant to the matter of Ichigo's strength.
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Old 2010-02-27, 04:32   Link #292
ShadowSeed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Complete control over bankai means having Zangetsu on 100%, which leaves Ogichi at 0%, meaning that when Ichigo goes bankai+hollow mask, he is using both effects at the same time (be it 40/60 or 90/10 is unknown).[/SPOILER]
You're saying there that no matter which effects he uses, his reiatsu stays the same. His full potential would be both Zangetsu's shinigami and hollow side at 100 %. You can also put it like this:

Zangetsu 100%
Hichigo 100%
=
Ichigo's full potential unlocked *ka-ching*

And why can't they stack? I just don't see why. Ichigo's Bankai is rushed and has little to no training before it was used against Byakuya. Although his growth rate is "fukken epiks"-level, he still can't master Bankai in 3 days. Sure, he unlocked it, but that doesn't mean he can completely wield it with super skill. This was shown when he fought against Hichigo in his soul. He was nearly obliterated, but plot armor saved him there (again)
This could explain why his Bankai is so shitty nowadays. All he needs is his Superman Hollowfication and boom! he's back in action. Look at the other captains. They've had years and years of practice with their Bankais, and they can fight Espada without any friggin Hollowfication.

Anyways, i'm going off-topic. What i'm saying is that it just doesn't make sense to me. Ichigo's Bankai is so weak that it has to stack with Hollowfication. Otherwise, Ichigo would be too weak to kill even that damn ninó-guy (The Privaron Espada he killed in HM arc.)
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Old 2010-02-28, 14:26   Link #293
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Interesting read to say the least.

My opinion is that Zangetsu and Hichigo represent Ichigos two extremes of his personality Zangetsu is his typical cool-headedness where he tries to use logic and Hichigo is desperation and ichgo himself is meerly a medium/mediator between the two.

As for his power blue glowing eyes are his "clarity or instinct" manifesting that come from neither of Zangetsu or Hichigo. Also for the cero question raised its his Getsuga Tensho as both shinigami and hollowized just one is more powerful than the other.

The whole next level thing will come from ichigo having to now truely beat hichigo and become the king that rides the horse.
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Old 2010-03-01, 01:21   Link #294
ShadowSeed
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Originally Posted by TakumiFuji View Post
The whole next level thing will come from ichigo having to now truely beat hichigo and become the king that rides the horse.
I just HAVE to quote a fery famous Texan here. I think what Ichigo could say right now is:

"I'm going to beat you like a rented mule, boy!"
Then 'ride' Hichigo on a bumpy road until he's completely exhausted and dirty. I'd like that.
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Old 2010-03-13, 04:39   Link #295
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Some people like me, be it for whatever reason they had throughout life, develop different personalities. I myself, suffered a lot in my childhood so I became a jerk in my teens. Eventually I realized it made things even worse because not only people hurt me, but also I did so to myself by hurting the few that actually cared. Well whatever, those were some of my reasons, for Ichigo's I would think it was the Death of her Mother that frustrated him (me thinks, me thinks).
My point is... people change. Some dramatically like me.

And what they were never actually disappears fully.

I, for myself, am nowadays, I'd say, a mature person, I think conflicts should be solved with conversation. I believe in honesty above all. All that kind of goodie goodie stuff. I got back some of that childhood feeling that the world is a great place and life is worth living bla bla.
And out of hurting myself by hurting those who were actually dear to me because "I was an animal (an idiot). Eventually, just like Ichigo does, I had to set my foot down. As in, "enough is enough, I am me, I will not be controlled by this rage". And so I became the King of myself.
And if there's one thing I'm fully aware of is: deep deep inside, there's still that hateful character, that personality of myself I built for trying to fit in this harsh wild hell of a world and try to beat everyone as they would do me (or so I would think like back then). That character still exists within me and will always exist.
When frustration on life appears (because there are and will always be stupid people), it rings. Oh, it certainly does ring. Not loud enough that I can't ignore it, but it's clearly there.

Now before you laugh, just keep on reading, if you still have to laugh in the end, that is alright, I'm not gonna give a crap. Just saying there's somewhere I want to get behind this.

What I see here is Ichigo is simply aware of his dark personality inside just like I am. And just like I do sometimes, if I'm really pushed in order to defend myself or the others around me, I also somewhat... let it out. Take use of its cold bloodedness, refered in the anime as "killer instinct". And just like Ichigo does, I also always keep the reigns. Because I am the King, it is the horse.
So, ultimately, I believe Ichigo's hollow is nothing but exactly that I just said. The cold bloodedness inside him. And when he pulls his mask out, he's reaching for a balance between being too soft-hearted and being an animal. Hence why Hollow Ichigo is and will always be there. Being more of a part of him than Zangetsou ever will.

Since we're so much into philosophy - That's how some people grow, I believe. Even if some develop a full shield instead of an animal.

Then you have the anime factor... so it had to be exagerated and materialized since it's all about bloody battles, reiatsu and all.
Either way, that's what I believe to be the root of the author's concept of his hollow and why or how it is there.

O well random philosophy is random! They do say I think too much ~~

Last edited by TheCake; 2010-03-13 at 16:56.
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Old 2010-03-14, 20:48   Link #296
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I don't really understand the maths being used here but I can say for certain hichigo isn't invincible, at least not in the anime. Muramasa nearly killed him until Ichigo stepped up to stop it.

Personally I don't really like the Hichigo character, can't imagine how someone would always have to suppress his evil side. That aside, it does amplify his powers, a lot.

Last edited by philly; 2010-03-14 at 21:00.
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Old 2010-03-14, 21:07   Link #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyenn View Post
Also realistically he couldn't defeat anyone as he can't do thing against Steps (Shunko, SOnido, Hirenkyaku(might spelled it wrong) as he doesn't have a equalient of it yet he defeated a privanon, which is annoying in my opinion.
wouldn't it be considered he has his own variation now since he has use of both arms? since before he was being beaten because he couldn't keep up with Gantabein.
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Old 2010-03-15, 23:03   Link #298
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Originally Posted by philly View Post
Personally I don't really like the Hichigo character, can't imagine how someone would always have to suppress his evil side. That aside, it does amplify his powers, a lot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissoci...ntity_disorder
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Old 2010-03-19, 06:09   Link #299
TheCake
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Originally Posted by kamyu View Post
well I wouldn't call it multiple personality since he has perfect conscience of its existence and of what happened while it was "out"

Quote:
Originally Posted by philly View Post
can't imagine how someone would always have to suppress his evil side.
You don't. Sometime eventually you put your foot down and claim yourself the king of yourself. I guess there's no way to explain it properly, but if I had to make an adaptation, Ichigo and Hichigo's story would make it pretty good. "Enough is enough, I will not be a slave to my own hate".

In fact, my favourite avatar ever, and the one I believe I'll always use is the one I'm currently using for feeling so identified with "Ichigo+Hichigo". I can be the greatest of men or the most hateful of diseases. I chose to be good, but my evil side is still a part of me. Had to accept it to live well with myself, and in the series, so did Ichigo.

Spoiler:

Last edited by TheCake; 2010-03-19 at 13:04.
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Old 2010-03-19, 13:02   Link #300
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My thoughts on Strawberry and his hollow powers.

1:

His power is undeniably rigged. His hollow power is cool in the first few fights, but it eventually became a crutch/plot convenience. While he has Shinigami powers, augmented by his healthy physique would've atleast made him a lieutenant, eventually.

However, due to his hollow powers he can now fight with augmented strength via a 'third party', 'third party' being Hichigo. His bankai has lost it's popularity, as he has been forced to use it more times then not, making it stale to me. The last time I liked his bankai was during his Grimmjow fight. Though it was a killjoy Orihime was there with her wallowing in self-pity.

Ichigo has 75 points in strength, Hichigo has 500 in strength. That augments it to 575. This is both a jab of how much stronger his hollow is, and how much he relies on it to win nowadays.

2:

It's skeptical, in my opinion - that his hollow/Orihime/Zangetsu would let him die. Hichigo will die along with him, so he forces Ichigo's body 'beyond the limit'. (A constantly used lifesaver in abttles that would actually KILL him.) Orihime, being the stereotypical mary-sue healer saves Ichigo with... amazing healing powers! Who saw that coming? Zangetsu is his 'other self', his 'spirit in him'. He isn't suppose to intervene, but help him when necessary. Necessary being when he is actually holding back his powers subconsciously or purposefully for varying reasons. (But sometimes he saves him anyways, which is considered unlikely as explained about shinigami's zanpaktou's. Mind you, the excuse is/will be "Ichigo is special".)


Ichigo could probably be even stronger if he took the time to train his bankai without relying on his hollow. He could actually win against enemies without his hollow if he did train his body, and not his hollow's powers instead.

Hichigo must be getting tired of being a crutch, in my opinion. I think Hichigo is awesome, especially his seiyuu's 'evil laughter'. Then again, Johnny Yong Bosch does a good job with Hichigo, too.
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