[Manga] Chapter 445 Discussion

[Mr. Johnny 5]

It seems that only Shikamaru had a normal life. Everyone has their own trauma's..and totally flips out. If the world would be like in Naruto...we'd all be dead. And the living would be total killing machines..

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by DeDe

I just wish Kishi could have showed us in this chapter. The few that wanted a Nagato Gaiden are getting their wish I guess. I just rather get to the point and move on with the plot.

This isn't so important because of Nagato or Jiraiya, this is important because of Naruto. Naruto is changing now, and his answer to Nagato's story will show us the new Naruto, also this story may affect Naruto's future decision, what i mean is that Naruto already may have an answer but the story of Nagato may change his answer and have a big impact on how will Naruto relate to Konoha and Sasuke. Naruto is now becoming a legend from a noname ninja, it is important to show also the mental transformation and not only the physical (physical being sage and demon mastery and mastery of various S-rank jutsu). Whatever Naruto's answer will be it is important to show what were the reasons for that. I'm really interested how will Naruto handle Konoha after his answer was given, since i'm sure that his view of the world will be completely different than Konoha's. The first debate was between Naruto and Ino's father, this was still peaceful, but in the future Naruto will probably have to kick Konoha ninja's asses too. Because to change the world he must think above the village level, he must distance himself from Konoha, however formally he is a Konoha ninja who has to follow orders.

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

It seems that only Shikamaru had a normal life. Everyone has their own trauma's..and totally flips out. If the world would be like in Naruto...we'd all be dead. And the living would be total killing machines..

Check the history books, for example about 20th century But if you go back in time even more you'll see even more blood and genocide, human history is the history of wars and agression, the current civilized world is kind of a utopia becoming reality. But even now you have places like middle east or central africa where many people die every day. So imagine if in our world some people had special abilities, that allow them to kill even more people

In shikamaru's team everybody had a normal childhood, their parents are alive despite being ninjas. Hinata's team is ok too. In other teams there's at least one who had normal childhood, for example Sakura in team7.

[Tech-Guy]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

This isn't so important because of Nagato or Jiraiya, this is important because of Naruto. Naruto is changing now, and his answer to Nagato's story will show us the new Naruto, also this story may affect Naruto's future decision, what i mean is that Naruto already may have an answer but the story of Nagato may change his answer and have a big impact on how will Naruto relate to Konoha and Sasuke. Naruto is now becoming a legend from a noname ninja, it is important to show also the mental transformation and not only the physical (physical being sage and demon mastery and mastery of various S-rank jutsu). Whatever Naruto's answer will be it is important to show what were the reasons for that. I'm really interested how will Naruto handle Konoha after his answer was given, since i'm sure that his view of the world will be completely different than Konoha's. The first debate was between Naruto and Ino's father, this was still peaceful, but in the future Naruto will probably have to kick Konoha ninja's asses too. Because to change the world he must think above the village level, he must distance himself from Konoha, however formally he is a Konoha ninja who has to follow orders.

yeah i think the same as you that konoha is going to disagree with naruto's answer and that he'll have to leave the village because of that, maybe he'll turn into a jiraiya traveling around the world writing icha icha books xD lol jk. anyways i think that will have to be done to have a new timeskip.
originally i thought that naruto was gonna get kicked out from konoha because teh village, danzoue, root will tell naruto to leave because it was his fault the village got destroyed, etc. but now i think he'll leave konoha, probably to myobokuzan? same as jiraiya?

and about the chapter i was hoping for a little more information in nagato's past but its ok . and poor puppy.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

It seems that only Shikamaru had a normal life.

I think that his whole team has it and i think that is important to understand their personality, their laid-back attitude and the simplicity of their way of thinking.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

In shikamaru's team everybody had a normal childhood, their parents are alive despite being ninjas. Hinata's team is ok too. In other teams there's at least one who had normal childhood, for example Sakura in team7.

It's different in Hinata's team... yeah, Shino it's ok, but she had not a normal life being almost rejected by her father and Kiba's dad left his house.

And for Sakura... i really don't know... by now i'm only thinking that Kishi is silent about her background life with some purpose. It could be nothing, but you never know.

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The first debate was between Naruto and Ino's father, this was still peaceful, but in the future Naruto will probably have to kick Konoha ninja's asses too. Because to change the world he must think above the village level, he must distance himself from Konoha, however formally he is a Konoha ninja who has to follow orders.

I doubt he distances himself from Konoha. That would also mean distancing himself from Sakura, Shikamaru, Tsunade, Hinata, Shikaku, and the others who believe in him. And that's not Naruto's way. Kishi has continually mentioned Konoha's Will of Fire. It's about the people and not the village. The Will of Fire burns bright in Naruto and he will never turn his back on it or his friends/nakama.

Naruto will never kick the Konoha ninja's asses outside of maybe Danzou and ROOT who will be clearly labeled evil. First off, violence to create peace is Pain's way and we see how that is fail. Second, a lot of Konoha nin died to not give up where Naruto was. The Konoha nin love him now. Remember Shikamaru's words? Naruto brings about changes in people and makes them want to walk and follow him. Naruto will be all about non-violence to bring his peace. Like Gandhi. Well except for Madara. We have to see some fighting.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by DeDe

I doubt he distances himself from Konoha. That would also mean distancing himself from Sakura, Shikamaru, Tsunade, Hinata, Shikaku, and the others who believe in him. And that's not Naruto's way. Kishi has continually mentioned Konoha's Will of Fire. It's about the people and not the village. The Will of Fire burns bright in Naruto and he will never turn his back on it or his friends/nakama.

Naruto will never kick the Konoha ninja's asses outside of maybe Danzou and ROOT who will be clearly labeled evil. First off, violence to create peace is Pain's way and we see how that is fail. Second, a lot of Konoha nin died to not give up where Naruto was. The Konoha nin love him now. Remember Shikamaru's words? Naruto brings about changes in people and makes them want to walk and follow him. Naruto will be all about non-violence to bring his peace. Like Gandhi. Well except for Madara. We have to see some fighting.

If you want people to do things differently you have to either convince them peacefully or to make them do as you say by force. In this situation you have a world order with 5 major and many minor villages that had many ninja wars in the 70 years of it's existence, that means there is a lot of hatred between the countries that's the result of all those wars. Take for example the Sand village, they were supposed to be allies with Konoha but when they had a chance they attacked them, we also know they were at war in the past. So if Naruto acts on behalf of Konoha many villages will not even bother to listen what he wants to say, but if he distances himself from Konoha and shows that he is acting on his own free will then other villages who hate Konoha might listen to him. Or take for example Nagato, many smaller countries hate Konoha because they are the number one village and their ninja probably are too proud of themselves, thinking that Konoha is better than others, you see that in Nagato's speech too.

Konoha is still under the influence of the elders, so i was referring to this when saying that Naruto will probably have to kick some asses there. The new generation as you mentioned is already under his influence, but it would be too easy if suddenly Naruto could be hokage and all his advisors would become Shikamaru, Sakura and other loyal people. That wouldn't be an interesting story
So if Naruto distances himself from Konoha that does not mean that he forgets about his friends in Konoha, it just means that he could do the same thing Jiraiya or Tsunade did, but eventually he can return there and become hokage. It may seem a crazy idea in your eyes, but i think that if Naruto finds the answer and creates a new world in the end of the manga it would be a good ending that he makes Sasuke the hokage and he becomes some kind of legendary ninja who stands above the villages.

[Gamma_Sennin]

Originally Posted by james0246

I have to say, Yahiko looks like a crazy jerk in this chapter...he also reminds me of Jio Freed from Satan 666 .

I wouldn't call him a jerk, hes just an angry misguided child, similar in many ways to the prankster naruto from the first chapter's, just naruto is less extreme lol..

My prediction is that Nagato, inherits the same idealistic veiws of peace Jiraiya taught him... but after he leaves the 2nd pain make's him lose faith.. the once timid nagato becomes to realises the chain of hatred and how believing people can change is indeed a "pipedream' (which he said to naruto)

Also it seem's nagato has taken on more than just yahiko's veiws... his pain persona mimic's yahiko personality... the "god' complex, the bashful outburst... not to mention the deva realm is yahiko.. it might be the reason nagato hide's.. the bodies are a vice which give him confidence (he lives through him).. like 'hands' from boston legal and his wooden cigarette lol (pain has Asperger's)

[Kid Ying]

But Yahiko was like that when Jiraiya founded him. He wanted vengeance and to crush the ninjas that make that to his village.

[Gamma_Sennin]

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

But Yahiko was like that when Jiraiya founded him. He wanted vengeance and to crush the ninjas that make that to his village.

but remember yahiko crying when Jiriaya left, he show's that he care's about him, even though he is from another village... a village that played part in the demise of his own... however as I said... Yahiko's veiws will seem not so radical to nagato once the 2nd pain occurs... and what little faith he had in others, diminishing.. who knows, maybe after J_Man leaves yahiko begin's to believe that people can one day change.. only to be proven wrong by the "chain of hatred" continuing its cycle.. leading to his own death... in which is the main reason behind nagato's distorted veiws on peace

[Fran~]

I still don't know why Nagato was OK with Jiraiya being his teacher...

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Fran~

I still don't know why Nagato was OK with Jiraiya being his teacher...

Why not? It has happened some time ago, and it is possible for him to have pushed back those memories as deep as possible by that time, especially after he joined with Yahiko and Konan. Friendship is a good healer for such pain. Considering the scenes and other fights those kids experienced, Nagato feeling a grudge at the level of refusing the help of a good person, regardless of where he is from, at the level of getting separated from people who care about him would not be quite normal.

And it is not like he was feeling hatred towards Konoha more than his hatred towards the other countries, who also helped in the destruction of his own country.

[james0246]

^Wow...I didn't think any human had the ability to shrug off their parents deaths as easily as you described...I guess Nagato must truly be a monster then...

[Gamma_Sennin]

Id lean more toward Nagato taking advantage of what J_Man could offer, learning Ninjutsu etc... It would make more sense if the acceptance of J_Man as a close bond came after the time they spent together, where he was able to see the man and not just the Konoha Nin... I agree with james, it would be hard for the best human beings on this earth to shrug of something like that..

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Why not? It has happened some time ago, and it is possible for him to have pushed back those memories as deep as possible by that time, especially after he joined with Yahiko and Konan.

You're missing Chibi's death, it seems that his death was because Sannin vs. Hanzou's battle... i'm not sure about this though...

I don't see Nagato taking advantage of Jiraiya's teaching. the way he was with him, speaking from the heart... i can't see that on him.

Probably is like Gamma_Sennin said, Nagato saw Jiraiya's human side...

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Wow...I didn't think any human had the ability to shrug off their parents deaths as easily as you described...I guess Nagato must truly be a monster then...

I was referring to the part with Konoha (see the post I was quoting, and the Jiraiya connection). You seem to be forgetting that Sasuke pushed back the memories related to his brother's tears on the night the Uchiha got massacred. I don't think Sasuke was a monster, do you? And you are also forgetting that the more time Sasuke spent with Naruto, the more he strayed from his revenge path. That doesn't mean he actually forgot those, but his positive feelings started to suppress them.

And in Nagato's case, the pain related to his family's death might have a less impact compared to what Sasuke felt (losing your family during war conditions-not saying Konoha was innocent- vs. losing your family and clan in the hands of your brother whom you had admired all your life in a rather peaceful environment). Also, unlike Sasuke, who developed a goal of becoming an avenger, Nagato, may not have developed such goals at the times. And for him finding a place he can consider a new home might be sufficient for him to make a new beginning. Enough to not keep those memories as if they are written on his hand.

Of course, this is my opinion. You are free to not share them. (and, even though it was not my point, psychologically, a human is capable of shrugging off those memories, and that never makes them a monster. just like kids affected by the Stockholm syndrome. those only make them human, as created by the god.)

[hmongstang]

i have a feeling that the rinnegan can freeze time! which will give the user the option to walk around the enemies as long as he or she wants.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Of course, this is my opinion. You are free to not share them. (and, even though it was not my point, psychologically, a human is capable of shrugging off those memories, and that never makes them a monster. just like kids affected by the Stockholm syndrome. those only make them human, as created by the god.)

I'm quoting you, because i think is very mind-healthy remember that in a forum like this always will be differents PoV, and the first thing is respect them, and how fipskuul wrote, we are free to share them or not. But we need to remember that the most important thing is to respect those opinions.

Just my 2 cts.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

I was referring to the part with Konoha (see the post I was quoting, and the Jiraiya connection). You seem to be forgetting that Sasuke pushed back the memories related to his brother's tears on the night the Uchiha got massacred. I don't think Sasuke was a monster, do you? And you are also forgetting that the more time Sasuke spent with Naruto, the more he strayed from his revenge path. That doesn't mean he actually forgot those, but his positive feelings started to suppress them.

Nagato repressed nothing. Nagato knows his parents were murdered. He knows who murdered them. He even knows that he killed his parent's murderers. And he has never gotten over their murder. So, the analogy you are trying to make does not make sense. Sasuke repressed Itachi's tears because Sasuke wanted to hate Itachi; Nagato has forgotten nothing, he even has mentioned Konoha's deeds to Naruto just a few chapters ago (which was a sure indicator that he had never gotten over his parent's murder), and is now explaining everything (which has proved that Nagato never got over his parent's deaths (considering he claims that it was his "first pain"), and has decided, in the long run, to act upon that "pain").

To put it another way, Nagato has precise information of the events at hand, and he has even used said events as one of the two cornerstone of his entire belief system. So, to claim that his emotional trauma was somehow solved by friendship, or something to that effect, before meeting Jiraiya, makes very little sense, considering just how important Nagato treats his parent's murder.

So, once again, the question of why Nagato would decide to approach Jiraiya, let alone work with him, is a very relevant question that needs to be answered.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by james0246

You are confusing repressed memories (due to a shocking situation or a traumatic event) with "getting-over" an emotional crisis.

Am I? Especially when I am trying to combine both to achieve the end result, as it is connected with both.

Nagato knows his parents were murdered. He knows who murdered them. He even knows that he killed his parent's murderers. So, the analogy you are trying to make does not make sense.

Why? I don't remember him saying/thinking at the time he met with Jiraiya that Konoha was behind his family's death. Why is it not possible for him to forget about that part by that time, and remember later on? If there is some information to invalidate that, I will surely keep that in mind.

Sasuke repressed Itachi's tears because Sasuke wanted to hate Itachi;

I didn't know that. Must be from a chapter that is yet to be published.

Nagato has forgotten nothing, he even has mentioned Konoha's deeds to Naruto just a few chapters ago (which was a sure indicator that he had never gotten over his parent's murder), and is now explaining everything (which has proved that Nagato never got over his parent's deaths (considering he claims that it was his "first pain"), and has decided, in the long run, to act upon that "pain").

I think you are deviating from the point. I had never said Nagato forgot those information for eternity. I mentioned the possibility of suppressing those part of his family's death, and remembering later on. It doesn't change the fact that he knew when he met Naruto, and that fact doesn't say he did remember by that time. Unless of course the current chapter talks about that part specifically.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Why? I don't remember him saying/thinking at the time he met with Jiraiya that Konoha was behind his family's death. Why is it not possible for him to forget about that part by that time, and remember later on? If there is some information to invalidate that, I will surely keep that in mind.

Why is it not possible? Because there has never been a hint to say that Nagato had forgotten anything nor is there any evidence to suggest that Nagato has ever forgotten anything. Simply because Nagato never told Jiraiya (during Jiraiya's flashback, btw) that Konoha-nin had killed his parents, does not mean that he had somehow forgotten their deaths. It simply means that their relationship was more complicated than initial thought, and Nagato will now have to explain why he teamed up with Jiraiya.

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

I didn't know that. Must be from a chapter that is yet to be published.

Actually, going back over 403, it seems that Sasuke did recall Itachi's tears, but he always thought it was his imagination. So, actually, Sasuke did not suppress any memories, he simply thought that he dreamed the last encounter.

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

I think you are deviating from the point. I had never said Nagato forgot those information for eternity. I mentioned the possibility of suppressing those part of his family's death, and remembering later on. It doesn't change the fact that he knew when he met Naruto, and that fact doesn't say he did remember by that time. Unless of course the current chapter talks about that part specifically.

There has been absolutely no sign that Nagato has ever suppressed his memories. In his story that he is telling to Naruto, he goes from his parents being killed by Konoha-nin, to killing the same Konoha-nin, to burying his parents the next day. There is no info about suppressing any memories, nor does Nagato treat the situation as anything but a memorable traumatic event. He then explains that he hooked up with several other orphans. Never once does Nagato mention that he stopped hating Konoha-nin, or that he had forgotten his parent’s deaths by the hands of Konoha-nin, or anything along those lines.

You have argued that Nagato somehow magically simply got over his parent's death (due to friendship...I think) or had forgotten them somehow, but the last chapter (as well as previous ones) all indicate, if not outright explain (see chapter 444) that Nagato has never gotten over his parent's murder. Additionally, there has never been any evidence that Nagato has ever suppressed or repressed his emotions concerning his parent's death.