[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Lombardest]

Originally Posted by haguruma

We haven't yet heard an official claim on who decided to set the bomb. If Sayo set it before she left the room to seal her catbox, if Eva set it to protect the family's honor, if Battler and Sayo decided to set it to protect the family, if Kyrie set it to be free of blame...

More like who had the final word in it after Kyrie set it and Eva left it be. In the entirety of 5th October a lot of things could have happened. I also thought that maybe Battler didn't know that the bomb could be switched off, poor devil was pretty much tricked by the "trial" and that stupid ingot :c, wouldn't surprise me if that wasn't all of it.

At some point I thought that maybe Battler actually escaped just before 6th october arrived, it would have given him a sense of urgence in escaping the explosion instead of escaping after it had passed, but I have decided to trust in the suicidal nature of that action during the typhoon.

But, if he learned about the switch then there are two possibilities:

1. He was forced to leave it alone at gunpoint by Eva, and midway through the tunnel he slipped off (without Sayo the chaces of a fight between them are not only due to being the only survivor of the massacre, but from her part she could have suspected that Battler was involved since his fathers were the intentional culprits).

2. ... Or he was willing to go along with all of that in the end. And if that's the case I can't imagine other motivation than Sayo. Because, what's there to gain from stopping the police investigation and uncovering the truth to make justice? If Eva told him, would he really assume that easily that his fathers were the killers and that maybe Eva wasn't lying? I mean sure if it had been for Ange, EP8 makes you think that he would rather hide that pain from her, but that would mean he believed Eva more than his own parents, than Ange's parents. I don't buy that even with the story behind that family. But if Sayo told him EVERYTHING then it fits, specially with the finale of the IV tea party where it's clear that not even for Ange could he forsake the well being of Beatrice... that's why he would be willing to start from zero with her, let the bomb cleanse everything and the world to assume they died that day.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Lombardest

More like who had the final word in it after Kyrie set it and Eva left it be. In the entirety of 5th October a lot of things could have happened. I also thought that maybe Battler didn't know that the bomb could be switched off, poor devil was pretty much tricked by the "trial" and that stupid ingot :c, wouldn't surprise me if that wasn't all of it.

At some point I thought that maybe Battler actually escaped just before 6th october arrived, it would have given him a sense of urgence in escaping the explosion instead of escaping after it had passed, but I have decided to trust in the suicidal nature of that action during the typhoon.

But, if he learned about the switch then there are two possibilities:

1. He was forced to leave it alone at gunpoint by Eva, and midway through the tunnel he slipped off (without Sayo the chaces of a fight between them are not only due to being the only survivor of the massacre, but from her part she could have suspected that Battler was involved since his fathers were the intentional culprits).

2. ... Or he was willing to go along with all of that in the end. And if that's the case I can't imagine other motivation than Sayo. Because, what's there to gain from stopping the police investigation and uncovering the truth to make justice? If Eva told him, would he really assume that easily that his fathers were the killers and that maybe Eva wasn't lying? I mean sure if it had been for Ange, EP8 makes you think that he would rather hide that pain from her, but that would mean he believed Eva more than his own parents, than Ange's parents. I don't buy that even with the story behind that family. But if Sayo told him EVERYTHING then it fits, specially with the finale of the IV tea party where it's clear that not even for Ange could he forsake the well being of Beatrice... that's why he would be willing to start from zero with her, let the bomb cleanse everything and the world to assume they died that day.

Probably we aren't meant to think too deply about it but let's assume the Teaparty is truthful enough Sayo leaves the room of the gold before Eva wakes up and possibly head for the main house. It's hard to say if by that time George was dead already but let's assume he was and that she didn't meet Rudolf or managed to hid from him and only met Battler.
Now, the padding might have reduced the damage of the shot but she's probably still hurt. She tells Battler the truth which causes Battler to waste time so Rudolf, who's waiting for him at the church, complains he's taking too long.
At this point either Battler goes back and see what Kyrie did to the main house (possibly searching for Nanjo's help because Sayo's hurt) or goes forward and sees the fight between Rudolf and Eva.
At this point they decided to escape, not to Kuwadorian, to the underground base.

I was told that an underground passage led to a hidden mansion on the opposite side of the island. ......However, the place we escaped to was a submarine base, not Kuwadorian.

We tend to assume this means he wanted to go to Kuwadorian but lost his way and ended there but it could be the submarine base was the original destination. If Sayo is hurt and the adults or just Eva are on the lose (I don't know if he saw Kyrie die or not) going to Kuwadorian is dangerous.
Ergo they decide to risk an escape even if there's a storm.
After all the base might be in the range of the explosion or the explosion can still cause the tunnel to crumble.
It's suicidal but as there are no better options it might work. So Battler escapes during the night in between the 4th and the 5th and not on the morning of the 6th day as we're lead to believe by the magic ending.
The boat capsizes, Sayo is hurt so she can't swim or can't swim for long and drown (it's hard to drown yourself the way Beatrice seems doing if you don't have a weight pulling you down as instinct will push you to try to save yourself), Battler reaches the coast while it's still raining goes in a car accident and then later meet up with Ikuko while it's still raining. Ikuko doesn't suspect him being Ushiromiya Battler because escape from the island shouldn't have been possible during the storm and ence after she saved him she didn't connect him to Battler.

Leaving the switch on or off won't change things for Battler. If he was escaping with the adults still wandering on the island even if he turned off the switch they could have turned it on.
And he might not have known about it anyway. Sayo was shot before Kyrie turned the switch on and when Eva let it on Sayo wasn't there anymore.
Maybe in their rush they simply hadn't checked if it was on or off.

Just food for your thoughts! ^_-

[Lombardest]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Probably we aren't meant to think too deply about it but let's assume the Teaparty is truthful enough Sayo leaves the room of the gold before Eva wakes up and possibly head for the main house. It's hard to say if by that time George was dead already but let's assume he was and that she didn't meet Rudolf or managed to hid from him and only met Battler.
Now, the padding might have reduced the damage of the shot but she's probably still hurt. She tells Battler the truth which causes Battler to waste time so Rudolf, who's waiting for him at the church, complains he's taking too long.
At this point either Battler goes back and see what Kyrie did to the main house (possibly searching for Nanjo's help because Sayo's hurt) or goes forward and sees the fight between Rudolf and Eva.
At this point they decided to escape, not to Kuwadorian, to the underground base.

What this makes me realize is that Sayo must not have been that resigned after she lost the gamble. For her to actually leave the place to do whatever she did, there was enough intent to not remain there lingering and waiting another order as the furniture she was, or for death. Must have felt like another mockery of fate, that even in this "Neutral" outcome where everything would essentially remain the same for her, being the furniture of the family and without a sign of what she should do with we life... Everyone were gonna die anyways. At the end she must have tried to prevent it since that was not part of her own terms.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

We tend to assume this means he wanted to go to Kuwadorian but lost his way and ended there but it could be the submarine base was the original destination. If Sayo is hurt and the adults or just Eva are on the lose (I don't know if he saw Kyrie die or not) going to Kuwadorian is dangerous.
Ergo they decide to risk an escape even if there's a storm.
After all the base might be in the range of the explosion or the explosion can still cause the tunnel to crumble.
It's suicidal but as there are no better options it might work. So Battler escapes during the night in between the 4th and the 5th and not on the morning of the 6th day as we're lead to believe by the magic ending.

A lot of the ambiguety in that dialogue has also to do with who is he including in that "We", unlike the previous line where he and Eva were told about the tunnel, here is not that clear. I think I will just go in circles trying to keep figuring that out.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

The boat capsizes, Sayo is hurt so she can't swim or can't swim for long and drown (it's hard to drown yourself the way Beatrice seems doing if you don't have a weight pulling you down as instinct will push you to try to save yourself), Battler reaches the coast while it's still raining goes in a car accident and then later meet up with Ikuko while it's still raining. Ikuko doesn't suspect him being Ushiromiya Battler because escape from the island shouldn't have been possible during the storm and ence after she saved him she didn't connect him to Battler.

This makes the idea more interesting, because that would mean she didn't intend to commit suicide after that. Jumping from the boat in the middle of the storm would mean neglecting his safety and worrying him even more, contradicting her drive mentioned before. If we are to believe at least the emotinal part of the ending then she did not intend for Battler to die along with her at that moment--- Although remember, the ingot is the thing that made her sink in the ending.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Leaving the switch on or off won't change things for Battler. If he was escaping with the adults still wandering on the island even if he turned off the switch they could have turned it on.
And he might not have known about it anyway. Sayo was shot before Kyrie turned the switch on and when Eva let it on Sayo wasn't there anymore.
Maybe in their rush they simply hadn't checked if it was on or off.

Though then their main concern would have been the adults since, even with the switch on, the time for the explosion wouldn't be until the night between 5th and 6th October.

Wooo, I don't think there's anything more I can come up with until the fateful day that chapter gets published.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Lombardest

What this makes me realize is that Sayo must not have been that resigned after she lost the gamble. For her to actually leave the place to do whatever she did, there was enough intent to not remain there lingering and waiting another order as the furniture she was, or for death. Must have felt like another mockery of fate, that even in this "Neutral" outcome where everything would essentially remain the same for her, being the furniture of the family and without a sign of what she should do with we life... Everyone were gonna die anyways. At the end she must have tried to prevent it since that was not part of her own terms.

Yes, but this works only if the events in the TeaParty are mostly truthful and actually we've no way to prove this if the only source of info is Eva's diary. Eva was unconscious when Kyrie supposedly shot Sayo and she had no idea how Rudolf and Kyrie handled the killing so she can't know that Battler was the last to be called out.

So it can be that for example they didn't kill Beatrice on the spot but dragged her out following some plan (for example pushing the blame of the murders on her or believing they could squeeze more money out of her before killing her) or they shot her but actually Battler wasn't the last being called, he left the house because he solved the epitaph or something, discovered the golden room and that Sayo was still alive but didn't realize Eva was also alive so he tried to save Sayo by taking her away but when he tried to return back to the house witnessed the murders or found the corpses and so they went back and tried to escape from the island.
After all Battler says he was told about the tunnel but he never says he was told about it by Eva or while he was with Eva so it's possible to assume Sayo was still alive and told him about it.

Personally I think it makes things more easier to believe in the teaparty otherwise everything goes, even that Genji, unaware that the epitaph had been solved, had also started murdering people in accordance with the epitaph (after all the manga claims in red that Kyrie and Rudolf killed 5 names. 2 are Hideyoshi and Rosa but who are the other 3? Beatrice? The cousins? This would let the servants alive. It is of course possible that Rudolf and Kyrie killed more than 5 people and the manga just didn't bother mentioning the servants to Ange because she wouldn't care but well... it leaves open the possibility we've another murderer on the lose).

Originally Posted by Lombardest

A lot of the ambiguety in that dialogue has also to do with who is he including in that "We", unlike the previous line where he and Eva were told about the tunnel, here is not that clear. I think I will just go in circles trying to keep figuring that out.

Nope, he never told he was told about the tunnel with Eva. Is Ange who assumes he and Eva were together.

"......Eva oba-san avoided the explosion accident by escaping to Kuwadorian. ......How did you escape the accident, onii-cha......nii-san?"
"On that day, ......I escaped through the underground passage."
"The one that goes to Kuwadorian?"
"I was told that an underground passage led to a hidden mansion on the opposite side of the island. ......However, the place we escaped to was a submarine base, not Kuwadorian."
I don't know under what circumstances my brother entered the underground passage on that day.
At any rate, he went into the underground passage, split up with Eva oba-san there, and escaped to the submarine base.
There, he escaped the explosion...and survived......
"From there, I got away on a motorboat. ......However, ......it must have capsized somewhere along the way."
"It...must have...?"
"......Please forgive him. Tohya suffers from memory loss. His memory from around the time he was drowning in the ocean is hazy."

Actually from the test we can't even be sure if the boat really capsized or Sayo really tried to drwon herself and he jumped in the water trying to save her and ended up being unable to return to the boat.

Originally Posted by Lombardest

This makes the idea more interesting, because that would mean she didn't intend to commit suicide after that. Jumping from the boat in the middle of the storm would mean neglecting his safety and worrying him even more, contradicting her drive mentioned before. If we are to believe at least the emotinal part of the ending then she did not intend for Battler to die along with her at that moment--- Although remember, the ingot is the thing that made her sink in the ending.

Unless she's tied to the ingot the ingot won't make her sink. As soon as she starts suffering of lack of air she'll lack the strenght to cling to the ingot, and drop it. By this time her brain should panic, go in automatic mode and push her to try and get some air. Add that bodies don't tend to sink deep as the air inside us tends to push us up.
She might drown herself because she won't reach air fast enough but she won't sink herself so easily as it looks in the ending.
Also if she jumps in the water without swimming and clinging to the ingot she'll start sinking but likely it won't be so fast that Battler, swimming after her, won't reach her.

There's to say though that the manga implied Sayo didn't grasp a hand that was offered to her when she thought that living won't be that bad.
So maybe she fell in the water or let herself fall into it and when Battler tried to save her she simply didn't fight enough to reach him. After all it wouldn't be so troublesome reaching her if the sea was calm but if the storm was still going on saving her won't be so easy for Battler.
She won't sink like in the magic ending but there are high chances she'll drown just the same.

Therefore, even if the scene comes out rather differently from how it was depicted, it's still possible she tried to drwon herself, possibly believing that if Battler had to provide to her she'll be a dead weight in his life or refusing to accept he would continue to provide to her or simply unable to picture a life with him at that point.

Last but not least I've always assumed that the ingot was actually another credit card. Carrying away an ingot would be troublesome as they've to convert it into money but a credit card would insure they could have fast money.

If it was a credit card we can even assume it slipped in the water, she tried to recover it and fell.

But well, I'm probably stretching things too much.

Originally Posted by Lombardest

Though then their main concern would have been the adults since, even with the switch on, the time for the explosion wouldn't be until the night between 5th and 6th October.

Wooo, I don't think there's anything more I can come up with until the fateful day that chapter gets published.

Well, if they leave the island in the night between the 4th and the 5th they also leave behind the adults.

[Mali]

Next, we see Eva and Hideyoshi accidentally killing both krauss and natsuhi while both of battler's parents are depicted as merciless killers.

I find that scene in the VN a bit funny. Natsuhi were arguing with Rudolph and then she jumped suddenly on Eva. I guess Eva and Hideyoshi like to provoke start a physical confrontation? Does Krauss got a gun after Natsuhi was shot in the manga version?

Although remember, the ingot is the thing that made her sink in the ending.

Where you got that? I assumed she was shocked and it was a suction from some current that dragged her down. Well of course there are things where she lost could make her jump into the sea (ring, brooch or money card I suppose?)

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

I find that scene in the VN a bit funny. Natsuhi were arguing with Rudolph and then she jumped suddenly on Eva. I guess Eva and Hideyoshi like to provoke start a physical confrontation? Does Krauss got a gun after Natsuhi was shot in the manga version?

Yes, the scene was downright poorly explained.
The manga version on this one didn't make a good job.
In chap 41 none of the siblings have a gun.
Chap 42, third page shows Rosa and Krauss holding a gun out of the blue although they're keeping them lowered (I'll assume Eva and Kyrie are already holding theirs). Krauss put down his gun and pick up an ingot and then we can see Eva and Kyrie holding a gun, everyone looking at Krauss, Kyrie keeping her gun lowered while Eva is pointing her at Krauss. Then she lowers it again to grab Krauss's shirt. Then we see Krauss grabbing his gun again.
Kyrie and Rosa have their guns in their hands but it seems they're keeping them lowered and the adults are divided in two groups, on one side Krauss, Hideyoshi and Eva, on the other, giving her back to Krausss's group Natsuhi, who's talking with Rosa, Rudolf and Kyrie.

Then the manga goes on showing us the door to the room of the gold and then there's a shot and Rosa, Kyrie and Rudolf see Natsuhi falling on the ground. Rosa has her gun lowered, Rudolf has no gun, Kyrie is behind Rudolf and Rosa so she couldn't shot.
Then in the next scene we see that Eva was apparently in front of Natsuhi and that she, in shock, drop her gun while Krauss is still holding his own.

So... it's totally unclear when Natsuhi decided to drop arguing with Rosa, Rudolf and Kyrie to go and get in between Eva and Krauss who originally were goddamn close as Eva was holding Krauss' shirt.

The way they deal with guns is almost ridicule (really, why did they let Krauss get his own back in the first place? they've 3 guns and he put down his own, threaten him with the guns, do not lower them!).

It almost seems like they want to use the guns, yet they don't (Eva aiming her gun at Krauss, then lowering it to grab his shirt, conveniently allowing him to retrieve his gun... Kyrie and Rosa holding a gun they keep lowered and with thom right then do nothing, not even threaten Krauss when he put down his gun or when he picks it back).

Sure, they're probably in a messy emotional state but still it comes out bad. But well, that's it in the manga and VN.

Originally Posted by Mali

Where you got that? I assumed she was shocked and it was a suction from some current that dragged her down. Well of course there are things where she lost could make her jump into the sea (ring, brooch or money card I suppose?)

Well, she's described as not shocked short before she jumped in the water (she jokes around and even kisses Battler).
The idea that Beato jumped with the ingot is born by the fact that when Battler notices she has disappeared he can't see the ingot anymore as well.
Since they had apparently disappeared together it seems logic to assume they jumped in the sea together.
I've always thought silly Beato would hand him an ingot (he can't convert it, what can he do with it) and than that she would toss herself in the sea with it without even making a splashing sound but well, I think a good part of the scene is fantasy so maybe those are all hints about it.
Or not.
We'll see if the manga clarifies it a bit.

[jTiKey]

If Ryu never touched Knox and Dine - it be just an amateur attempt of a detective novel, that couldn't be solved, with a nice story behind it. Just like the epitaph... The reader could've never solve it, and it never was, because all the keys were never given.

That's why people are disapointed and search for other answers. Sayotrice isn't fair for the reader. It doesn't tolerate Knox and Dine at all. It has no logic patern. For all the years there was no games solved with it. Every freaking person had their own theory. Only after the 8th manga, this theory had some sort of base, so people would have a reason to believe that way.

Answers in mysteries should explain the given information - not give new information \ rewrite old information.

For some reason, I still believe, we'll get a "Real Truth" in some years after the manga. You can't just imply another theory that obeys Dine and Knox by accident. You cant make a George\Rosa team in Cross in the Yasu story line by accident. You can't make a half frame with "this is all truth" with a figure that looks like Rosa.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

The reader could've never solve it, and it never was, because all the keys were never given.

Just as we here always point out to counter this argument, people have solved both the epitaph AND the mystery before it was revealed even in the VN.

But let's go into the meat of your argument:

Sayotrice isn't fair for the reader. It doesn't tolerate Knox and Dine at all.

Does it really?! Let's have a look.

It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story.
We are introduced to Shannon and Kanon as early as the second chapter of EP1, and the character introduction screen (which works like the character-list in a mystery novel) introduces us to the fact that their names are not their true names:

Originally Posted by Shannon

Furthermore, Shannon is nothing more than an alias that she uses during working hours and not her real name.

Originally Posted by Kanon

There are several other servants carrying the -on alias.

The proposal scene with George in chapter 8 gives us Shannon's real name, Sayo. In this scene George and the narrative also comments on how Sayo and Shannon are basically seperate people with seperate lives.
It is also explained that the Fukuin children are either orphans or people who have been cut off from their family through special circumstances.

Sayo is very much mentioned early in the story.

Knox's 2nd
It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.
There is no supernatural force involved in either Sayo's murder plan or Kyrie's killings.

Knox's 3rd
It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist.
No hidden passage is used to carry out any of the murders. We are introduced to the existence of the hidden gold chamber in EP3, so it becomes at least possible to use it as a setting to hide and an important part of figuring out the culrpits identity.

Knox's 4th
It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.
The only drugs or poisons that seem to be used are easy to come by through doctor Nanjo, as is mentioned several times during the first 4 Episodes.

Knox's 6th
It is forbidden for accident or intuition to be employed as a detective technique.
Ths one could be argued with, but it isn't really a problem in connection to Sayotrice but rather the construction method for the Umineko narrative as a whole in which at least emotional intuition becomes an important factor.

Knox's 7th
It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit.
They aren't.

Knox's 8th
It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
Sayo is introduced in EP1.
Kanon and Shannon's connection is highlighted in EP1.
Their magical origin is highlighted in EP2, 3 and 4.
The possible existence of a secret child is introduced in EP1.
The death of Kinzo's lover Beatrice is confirmed in EP1.
Kinzo's possible death is brought up from EP2, and EP4 highlights the fact that somebody must have inherited his name.
Beatrice is described as the master of this island during the night, while the servants strangely only speak of "the master of this estate" even when the Kinzo-illusion is still upheld.

Knox's 9th
It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard.
Isn't broken.

Knox's 10th
It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any clues.
As mentioned before, the fact that Shannon and Kanon are an alias, that they are both basically being somebody else while they work for the family, is introduced from their very introduction into the story onwards.

Answers in mysteries should explain the given information - not give new information \ rewrite old information.

Mysteries always give a certain element of "new information" when they reveal the culprit, since his/her identity must be hidden enough that it is not immediately apparent. The background of Sayo is not based on any new information, it simply uses everything we have been given through story-bits and metaphors during the main-story and brings it into order.
It doesn't rewrite anything, since you can practically go back to old Episodes and make sense of the events there with it.

You can't make a half frame with "this is all truth" with a figure that looks like Rosa.

When did that ever happen?!

[Levani]

The reader could've never solve it, and it never was, because all the keys were never given.

People figured out the truth before EP5 was even released Think again.

And also, about the epitaph, it's impossible to solve for people who has no Japanese knowledge, but the Japanese and my English friend (who speaks Japanese) all managed to solve it or at least reach the final stage of Quadrillion.

[GoldenLand]

The latest chapters of the manga have been amazing. If only the VN of ep 8 had been so good and so clear! It's not just something which feels like bonus content, but an appropriate and necessary wrap-up to the series.

I can understand some of the ep 8 manga content not being in the VN, certainly, since it removes some of the last shreds of ambiguity about several developments, but there is really no excuse for most of the parts surrounding Ange being so different. It's surprising how much Ryukishi messed up in the VN.

[jTiKey]

Any link of somebody solving the epitaph before the 6-7the games?

I didn't see any Sayotrice (No Shkanontrice) before the 7th game either. Link, please, as well.

Dine 10:
"The culprit must turn out to be a person who has played a more or less prominent part in the story — that is, a person with whom the reader is familiar and in whom he takes an interest."

Nothing about Sayo, except her name. We know more about Gohda than about Sayo Yasuda in game 1-6.

>When did that ever happen?!


Also, why Lion and Sayo look different? They have different hair color and eye color. Why? They have the same body.

[Levani]

Nothing about Sayo, except her name. We know more about Gohda than about Sayo Yasuda in game 1-6.

I guess you missed all those characterization in EP2 and 3 with Kanon and Shannon.

Any link of somebody solving the epitaph before the 6-7the games?

I didn't see any Sayotrice (No Shkanontrice) before the 7th game either. Link, please, as well.

Japanese fandom and old archives of 4chan which I am so not going to go digging now.

Also, why Lion and Sayo look different? They have different hair color and eye color. Why? They have the same body.

Don't take sprites and the way they look as something part of the narrative, it's just an anime visual, Battler had red hair, Jessica is blond, Eva is ginger, which are literary impossible for Japanese, that's not how they look. If you want to visualize all the characters in a realistic way, all of them most likely have black hair.

The VN doesn't describe the way the characters look except for Beatrice the golden Witch, who we know had blond hair.

[jTiKey]

>I guess you missed all those characterization in EP2 and 3 with Kanon and Shannon.

Sayo =\= Kanon, Sayo =\= Shannon. I need Sayo. These are different pesonbalities, aren't they? Both die in EP 3 and are no use. They are servants that cannot commit crimes.

>Japanese fandom and old archives of 4chan which I am so not going to go digging now.

So Umineko fans are so greedy, that they read the solved epitaph, but didn't share it to the english community?

> Don't take sprites
I didn't asked for this. I ask, why did the author draw the SAME character TOTALY different? Kanon and Shannon look alike, but Lion isn't.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

>When did that ever happen?!

Dude, that's half of a two page spread... OF ANGE. IT'S LITERALLY ANGE. YOU CAN SEE HER FACE.

[jTiKey]

>Mr. Dent
I know it is. Still looks like the silhouette of Rosa. On the page of "This is all truth". It is just ironic, that all. Don't take this at face value. ;D

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

>Mr. Dent
I know it is. Still looks like the silhouette of Rosa. On the page of "This is all truth". It is just ironic, that all. Don't take this at face value. ;D

Okay, sorry. The problem is, I've heard just as bizarre and insane "proof" for theories, in this very forum. (The Jessitrice theory from a few months back was a particularly recent one.)

[Mali]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, she's described as not shocked short before she jumped in the water

I meant a shock recieving from (cold) water.
In the past, noble women got unconscious easily because of their tight dresses. This may the same case with Beatrice.
The scene may be inspired from Final Fantasy VII? The wiki page said Ryu was/is a FF fan...

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Sayo =\= Kanon, Sayo =\= Shannon. I need Sayo. These are different pesonbalities, aren't they? Both die in EP 3 and are no use. They are servants that cannot commit crimes.

We have been over this so many times, I wish there was a quick way to just reference all these discussions...
EP1 makes it clear that Sayo is Shannon's real name, so you cannot JUST say that Sayo=/=Shannon without going against the text. They are not personalities, they are roles, just like you are a different person at work than you are around your friends, the harder you draw the lines the more likely it is that they will actually feel like two lives.

And why do you need Sayo to be mentioned for it to count as her development?
That's like saying that at the end of the respective novels you don't know anything about the Hollow Man, U.N.Owen, and many famous murder aliases in Japanese mystery novels...

So Umineko fans are so greedy, that they read the solved epitaph, but didn't share it to the english community?

When I searched on Google right now, the first result for the Lord U solution of the epitaph is back from September 2009, so very shortly after the release of EP5. Even then the blog-author already talked of the Taiwan-theory being one among many, so it was already heavily discussed.
The answer to why it wasn't shared is, (a) it just wasn't as popular and (b) many non-Japanese speaking fans were grumpy because they couldn't solve it as easily.

I didn't asked for this. I ask, why did the author draw the SAME character TOTALY different? Kanon and Shannon look alike, but Lion isn't.

This makes me wonder if you actually read EP7.
I think it was Bern who mentions that Lion isn't necessarily what that person would look like but simply an appearance that was chosen because it is easier to associate with a person than with an amorphous concept. That's basically what Lion is, a what-if fanfiction'esque scenario.

[jjblue1]

I've already posted this but I guess repetita iuvant

In an interview Ryukishi gave his final answer on the manga.

APGNation: The character of Sayo Yasuda in Umineko is interesting. What were your thoughts in Sayo’s creation? Additionally, what were your thoughts on her expansion in the Umineko manga?

Ryukishi07: The secret of the character of Sayo is the core of Umineko’s story, so her inner workings and development were designed carefully and with the utmost complexity.

In the original version, in order to leave room for imagination for the reader to solve the mystery, I chose not to draw Sayo’s secrets in great detail (of course, it’s still possible to grasp, but I didn’t show things in a way where everyone would get it.)

With the manga version of Umineko, however, we considered the work to be a “period” to the “sentence” that is the world of Umineko.

Because of this, when I met with Natsumi-sensei [Kei Natsumi, the artist of the manga adaptation of Umineko’s eighth episode], I asked her to show all the secrets in a way that can easily be understood by anyone.

Thus, all of the episode of Sayo that appeared in the EP8 manga is the official answer to the world of Umineko.

By no means is the manga version a individual interpretation. It is an official answer from me, Ryukishi07.

Full interview here

What's funny is that many people, after saying this interview, said: "Now people will stop discussing about Ryukishi having in truth in mind another solution for Umineko, and will be forced to admit that Ryukishi had in mind Sayotrice right from the beginning."
And I was all "Wanna bet on it?"
Really, it's a concept discussed in Umineko itself. Ryukishi can even say in red that the culprit is Sayo but this can't force people to believe it.

I only wish people rejecting the Sayotrice culprit were at least able to come up with more engaging theories because so far, all I've seen being offered, is way worse than the official theory.

[jTiKey]

>EP1 makes it clear that Sayo is Shannon's real name
It is you, Sayotrice believers, who say that the death of Shannon =\= death of Sayo. Therefore, Shannon =\= Sayo. Read some logic books or smth. But it is useless. You have your own logic. nothing to debate about here.

>And why do you need Sayo to be mentioned for it to count as her development?
Cuz Vine Dine says those kind of characters are forbidden to be the culprit. Nicknames don't commit murder. If a person is paranoic and makes imaginary characters - you cant blame them for commiting a crime.

>Japanese mystery novels...
Well, Ryuu did mention Knox and Dine to be effective in his novel. That what i check. I don't compare it with other works.

>Even then the blog-author already talked of the Taiwan-theory being one among many, so it was already heavily discussed.

Well, it is a comment under the blog. You need to know the solution to even find that comment amount the others (searching for the Lord U).
There is no word "Taiwan" on the whole page. Anyway, there is no mention of Taiwan before game 7, is there? Therefore how does the reader even get the key for solving it? Chech the map of the whole world for sweetfish rivers?

>I think it was Bern

Seems your are the one who didn't read episode 7. I didn't find anything like that there. Just looked up the manga. please, when making this kind of argument - use somekind of proof. Just writing your opinion doesn't proove anything.

>Ryukishi can even say in red that the culprit is Sayo but this can't force people to believe it.

Well, that will just mean, that the whole game is broken and it isn't solvable.

jjblue1, the interviews before were even more worse for Rosatrice. But even then, the same author said:

You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!

Also, people ignore Ryuu's first interviews, where he stated, he won't give any direct solution to his game.