Shinn's Character....

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by 4tran

Oh, I know where wingdarkness is coming from, all right. From what I've seen, it's little more than a case of emotional attachment. I just find that emotional attachment makes a very poor basis for analyzing characters. I was hoping that wingdarkness would have some more substantial ideas with which to back up his opinions.

It's a big case of emotional attachment, but aside from that I'm capable of discussing this purely academically as I have on countless occasions...If you think my total examination of Shinn to be poor in nature then....

Ask your question...

Additionally I find your assessment of this series on the whole to be poor...for it to be your second most respected G-series of alltime..I also think your concepts of Gundam are so outside of the box it resembles a nearly different genre entirely...But please what is it you want to know that i haven't at some point been ridiculously in-depth or substative on??

[4Tran]

In what way does Shinn's final scene in Final Plus not contribute to making his character more interesting?

While you're at it, can you drop all the appeals to emotion?

[wingdarkness]

4tran I'm always gonna be me, my natural disposition and emotional appeals are apart of my personality and exhibits my passion for what I talk about...

In what way does Shinn's final scene in Final Plus not contribute to making his character more interesting?

First off I hope you are not assuming that Final Plus is the apex of my ire...It's more or less the avalanching caused once I reached the peak...Now I'm not sure what you mean by interesting...If by interesting you mean it's interesting because it's better than his ep 50 final development...I guess it's the definition of interesting...However I don't find forced implied development to be that interesting...So FP does make a contribution (I mean it has to because it exists), but in my mind that contribution betrayed the character (whether you deem it by exceled development, invalid development, irrational development, or simply not believable in a 50 episode context)...So yeah I guess FP does add to his character, but that's like saying an extra page adds to a manilla folder...Yeah the folder has more information for me to glance over, but it's not necessarily the full-report or something I thought would be in it...It doesn't contribute because I don't find it to be believable or in anyway a acceptably rational forced development...I don't know what else you want to hear from me, in-terms of your question I have been pretty clear since day 1...

@aeriolewinters - To answer your question I have no clue if the SE will attempt to change the whole Mia thing and parced episode thing which Fukuda said they were struggling with during deadlines...

[aeriolewinters]

Originally Posted by grandmaster192

Correct! If we becomes a part of Team Kira all of that will go away. I'd rather have no Shinn then to see him become a Kira dick rider.

But this has no basis... Thinking that Shinn would automatically join any fight with Kira is yet to be seen. It does not mean that Shinn is what you have said him to be. I actually think that people who use this basis of calling him a Kira-dick-rider is actually not reading between the lines. Kira already sent Shinn an invitation not on the lines of joining his side. But rather, Kira just gives him a sense of purpose. Kira will not by any means, try to manipulate anyone.Just because he shook hands with him doesn't mean that Kira will pull any Jedi mind tricks on him. Rather, he helps Shinn rid of his dilemma. That scene did not make Shinn a lesser person, it was the opposite.

Losing doesn't mean the end, rather it is a new beginning. So why would he not be a better person?

[cloudedge]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Hmm....That can be interpreted in more ways than one.

*Goes to plan the possibilities of Shinn x Cagalli in my fanfics*

OMG!? Did I manage to convert you into a ShinnCaga believer XDDDD
I'm sorry >.>; I'm actually an avid ShinnCaga fan :x oh damn I said it... now everyone is going to give me weird looks...

Originally Posted by 4Tran

cloudedge, you bring up quite a few good points. However, that was Cagalli when she was at her nadir. She was getting pushed around by everyone, and she put up little resistance, even when it was against her better instincts. She knew that Shinn was wrong, but her self-doubt coupled with her inarticulation made it impossible for her to retaliate.

Cagalli has grown quite a bit from that period, and it's very unlikely for her to take any more of that nonsense from Shinn. One of the things she's learned is the importance of power, and the dire consequences which can arise if she were to lose control of it. Cagalli doesn't bear grudges, but there's also no reason for her to trust him. If Shinn's words had any effect on Cagalli, it's only to make her realize that Orb has to take a path different from the one her father proposed.

Sure, Cagalli isn't about to take anymore insults from Shinn like she did in GSD... afterall Shinn would at least need to let go of his irrational hate for her inorder to accept her offer to work "under" her... I never mean that Cagalli would continue tolerate his constant yelling at her... afterall, even if she could hold it, she can't possibly allow Shinn to ruin the Head Rep. image that much...

But if it's a matter of welcoming him back to Orb and work at a pose that his skill deserve, I sure think Cagalli would be open to that. Afterall, she was also one who readily accepted Athrun's defect and wanted to defend him from Mwu's (very reasonable) accusation about his defect.

Actually, the fact that Shinn openly had his outburst at her when they first met, probably makes him trustworthy in her eyes... those who show their true color in their every words cannot be that dangerous... It's people like Gil and Yuna who pays her false respect that make Cagalli weary...

And about Shinn's words making her realize that Orb has to take a path different from the one her father proposed. That's perhaps one of the most important thing in her life at this moment. To her, Orb and her father's ideal is all she got now. And having him as a living reminder of her father's ideal, and of the people she tries to protect is sure something that she wouldn't refuse.

Shinn doesn't hate Orb, but he really did hate the Atthas. He doesn't do so based on any rational reasoning, though – I feel that it's really just a projection of his own helplessness.

And with his development in FP, he should realize that there really is no reason for him to keep hating Cagalli... and thus slowly begin to accept her as he tries to understand her side of the story...

[Anh_Minh]

Shinn gave Stellar back to Neo. He was also generally abrasive and insolent. That doesn't spell reliability to me, even if he doesn't stab them in the back (myself, I'd still watch that one. But maybe I'm just generally untrusting.)

Sure, if you're hard up for good pilot, you may tolerate it. But with to Lacus and Cagalli, who already have Kira, Athrun, Mwu, Andy, Yzak, and Dearka... he's just not worth the trouble.

[Skyfall]

If you ask me Shinn hates Atthas not for their ideals but for clinging on to the ideals without power to support them. All those ideals mean jack if you cant stand up for them. His family died not because of the ideals, but because of lack of power from Attha side.

And now Shinn has obtained some power to protect things he wants to protect, and then suddenly an Attha, whose lack of power is responsible for his familys death, is coming up and starting to talk "idealistic nonsense' that power is not needed at all.



And what should happen to him... im not sure there is anythin that can happen to him at this point. Id say he will settle down with Luna and starte at ocean... there isnt much left you can do with his character imo, its been raped to non existance allready

[Bleed Kaga]

This thread is great, it helped me waste a good 4 to 5 hours @ work

Anyway, I don't think things should be this complicated with all these old Shinn fans, new Shinn fans, Final Plus good bad, etc. In my opinion, I don't even think this is about Shinn, it's more about Kira.

Prior to Final Plus, I would say the large majority of Kira fans are Shinn haters, and vice versa. Very rarely will you find someone who likes both (well, maybe females cuz they're both bishounens). I don't really want to repeat the same stuff that has been said for almost 2 years and since I'm a big NBA fan, I'll offer this pathetic example.

Shinn = Kevin Garnett (ZAFT = Minnesota Timberwolves)
Kira = Tim Duncan (Terminal = San Antonio Spurs)

Duncan fans hate Garnett and vice versa. They have a very intense rivalry and the fans of both sides are @ war with each other. What Final Plus did was basically similar to if Garnett, one day, asked to be traded to the Spurs to play 2nd fiddle to Duncan. The reaction of Garnett fans would be the same as "old" Shinn fans after Final Plus (they rather have Garnett / Shinn retire or disappear than be Duncan / Kira's sidekick). As for the Duncan fans, some of them now don't hate Garnett because 1. He is playing 2nd fiddle to Duncan 2. He is now on the Spurs aka "good guys".

I can't speak for WD but I think most Shinn fans not liking Final Plus is because Kira is the guy who shook his hand. I believe if it was somebody else like Cagalli (who also had some history with Shinn and is more "flawed" than Kira), most would not have much problem with it. I also see people who come to like Shinn in Final Plus are all Kira fans (although I believe the majority of them still hate Shinn).

To me, Shinn's development in Final Plus can be argued to be consistent and believable, but it was horribly executed. The difference in opinion is because of Kira. Quite frankly, Kira fans "won", just like the Duncan fans in the example.

[wingdarkness]

Bleed Kaga you don't post much, but I remember alot of them and pretty much always regard your posts highly...You should do more of it...Love how you used the sports analogy and you pretty much are telling it like it is...The biggest thing about the whole Kira--Shinn thing is that it had NO SOUL...But in Final Plus you are given a scene which has more soul and more cosequential impact than their rivalry ever had...That's why most people get on me thinking my primal concearn is with the Kira handshake when it's more about how it gets to that point...There was a dynamic there with Cagali ("flawed" as you make a point of saying), there IS a dynamic there with Athrun, but Kira and Shinn have no dynamic other than one is piloting the Evil Gundam and the other is piloting the Good Gundam (and that reverses between Kira and Shinn depending on who you like)...Basically you've hinted at the core of why I reject that final development and always will...You can't just come in the 11th hour and not only intestinally murder atleast 80-90% of the Shinn fanbase, but do it in a pretty grand, serious manner when you didn't give the dynamic between the two over the course of the series any seriousness or grandness (In character interaction that is)...


If the main pilots in Gundam don't have one decent conversation at any point during the fighting in the series there can be no rivalry...Shinn was never fighting Kira he was fighting a symbol....and Kira certainly didn't dedicate more than one or two lines of dialouge on Shinn all series...Shinn's impact on Kira as a character(even with the destruction of Freedom) was still basically microscopic at best...If they had any type of dynamic together watching that handshake wouldn't have been much of a problem, but with the lack of one it is rightly//wrongly a very controversial thing to do...

Anyways, overall I tend to agree with what you have brought to the discussion....

[Eidolon Sniper]

Shinn also hates the Athhas because they still SINCERELY believe in all those ideals even if everything around them is burning down; and that they won't let go of these very ideals whatever happens. The Athhas have much "people power"; the public adores them. So it cannot be said that they don't have power. See all those people/Orb soldiers who decided to stick with Cagalli. They remain loyal to her because of her Athha name, and of the ideals she strives to uphold.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Oh, I know where wingdarkness is coming from, all right. From what I've seen, it's little more than a case of emotional attachment. I just find that emotional attachment makes a very poor basis for analyzing characters. I was hoping that wingdarkness would have some more substantial ideas with which to back up his opinions.

Being emotional is also a sign of being human. Characters with deep emotions tend to be often misunderstood, because they weren't simply made. If all characters were simply made, with a set formula for all his or her basic attitudes or whatever...how could a book/play/movie/show/story be interesting?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

4tran I'm always gonna be me, my natural disposition and emotional appeals are apart of my personality and exhibits my passion for what I talk about...

wingdarkness, in that case address the points however you like. Those of us who liked Shinn's development have put up lots of points – I'm just wondering if you actually have any rational reasons for dismissing them. I don't really care about whatever passion you have about the subject, I only care about whether you have a logical basis for your positions.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

Actually, the fact that Shinn openly had his outburst at her when they first met, probably makes him trustworthy in her eyes... those who show their true color in their every words cannot be that dangerous... It's people like Gil and Yuna who pays her false respect that make Cagalli weary...

And about Shinn's words making her realize that Orb has to take a path different from the one her father proposed. That's perhaps one of the most important thing in her life at this moment. To her, Orb and her father's ideal is all she got now. And having him as a living reminder of her father's ideal, and of the people she tries to protect is sure something that she wouldn't refuse.

Normally, blunt honesty is a desirable trait in a subordinate. However, it's the least of Shinn's flaws as far as Cagalli is concerned. She has absolutely no reason to even give Shinn the benefit of the doubt. If he had survived, Lincoln wouldn't have given John Wilkes Booth a Cabinet position, nor did Reagan give John Hinckley a medal. Speech is one thing, an attempt to kill a national leader is quite another.

Orb's change of course has very little to do with Shinn. It's simply that Orb in Cosmic Era 74 is very different from Orb under Uzumi. It's no longer a little country amidst a vast number of larger powers. Instead, Orb is now the most politically powerful nation on Earth. It's no longer possible for Orb to continue Uzumi's policies in the face of a wide-spread conflict. Cagalli is simply acknowledging this reality.

Originally Posted by Bleed Kaga

To me, Shinn's development in Final Plus can be argued to be consistent and believable, but it was horribly executed. The difference in opinion is because of Kira. Quite frankly, Kira fans "won", just like the Duncan fans in the example.

I think that it's rather childish to couch this in terms of winning and losing. The main reason has been stated several times already: we tend to like Shinn's development in Final Plus because it was an actual sign of character growth.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

If the main pilots in Gundam don't have one decent conversation at any point during the fighting in the series there can be no rivalry...

Destiny works a lot better if there was no rivalry in it to begin with.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Being emotional is also a sign of being human. Characters with deep emotions tend to be often misunderstood, because they weren't simply made. If all characters were simply made, with a set formula for all his or her basic attitudes or whatever...how could a book/play/movie/show/story be interesting?

How the heck does having a story or a character that appeals to emotions mean that the analysis is supposed to as well? An appeal to emotion in a logical debate is basically an attempt to deflect from the actual points in an argument.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Being emotional is also a sign of being human. Characters with deep emotions tend to be often misunderstood, because they weren't simply made. If all characters were simply made, with a set formula for all his or her basic attitudes or whatever...how could a book/play/movie/show/story be interesting?

True, Shinn is an interesting character to dissect, emotionally, mentally, pscyhologically and physically due to his sublime, underdeveloped and less-narratively fleshed out nature that can both be interpreted and analysed into the lines behind the lines which is why there are differing view on Shinn. However, we're talking about wingdarkness here, whose flair and emotion in every post he makes, while very insightful, can't really be seen without some form of bias. 4tran wants wd to go OOC and type like him for once.

Anyway, the issue on Shinn's character is pretty much an idea of what he chooses to believe himself as. Shinn is interesting due to how he connects his over-attachment to his past and connects them with what he wants to be his future. It's natural for every human being to do so, but Shinn looks upon the negative side of his life as something that must be lashed out upon and in a way, reaffirms himself that he's white while others are black.

[frok]

Man do I hate Shinn!! I wished that the director had given him better characteristics and not to be such a lackey. I also wished he would be less kamikazelike and wished that he had more skills to combat against Kira or Athrun.

[cloudedge]

Shinn also hates the Athhas because they still SINCERELY believe in all those ideals even if everything around them is burning down; and that they won't let go of these very ideals whatever happens. The Athhas have much "people power"; the public adores them. So it cannot be said that they don't have power. See all those people/Orb soldiers who decided to stick with Cagalli. They remain loyal to her because of her Athha name, and of the ideals she strives to uphold.

It's funny how you bring that up, because part of the reason why Cagalli did end up agreeing to ally with EA is precisely because Shinn yelled that exact point at Cagalli... and Cagalli took that to heart...(the flashback Cagalli had when she gave up convincing the cabinet to not ally EA is one of Shinn yelling at her) but when Cagalli tries to be pragmatic about Orb's safety first by allying EA, Shinn still yells at her for it again! >.>;

Unfortuantely, bills and decisions aren't make by the "people" and Orb isn't a democrating social structure either... Sure the people loves her, and support her, but that doesn't give her any more say in the chamber. People and Soliders adore her and that is usually only useful in "upraise" against an existing government.. (which she didn't really made full use of it because Seiran is dumb enough to give her back her name) But popularity among people doesn't grant you any more power, especially when Orb doesn't even hold election.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Normally, blunt honesty is a desirable trait in a subordinate. However, it's the least of Shinn's flaws as far as Cagalli is concerned. She has absolutely no reason to even give Shinn the benefit of the doubt. If he had survived, Lincoln wouldn't have given John Wilkes Booth a Cabinet position, nor did Reagan give John Hinckley a medal. Speech is one thing, an attempt to kill a national leader is quite another.

Orb's change of course has very little to do with Shinn. It's simply that Orb in Cosmic Era 74 is very different from Orb under Uzumi. It's no longer a little country amidst a vast number of larger powers. Instead, Orb is now the most politically powerful nation on Earth. It's no longer possible for Orb to continue Uzumi's policies in the face of a wide-spread conflict. Cagalli is simply acknowledging this reality.

Let's not forget that Athrun too had once took an attempt at her life... and she never made a big fuss out of it... Andy could have very likely killed her during the desert days, she never hold anything against him.

Sure, Shinn had attempt to shoot her, but it's on a battlefield, and he's on ZAFT side back then... As far as Cagalli know, she and AA might not even know where that beam come from - it's a battlefield after all... If anyone who raised a gun at Cagalli don't deserve a post in Orb then, none of Amagi crew would have been accepted for all those missles the Orb's fleet had directed at Cagalli and AA. All of them were acting on order as far as Cagalli is concern.

And you forget there's one difference between Lincoln/Reagan and Cagalli... she's a woman, and thus many of her decisions has emotional attachment to them. She has always trust the people who have cross path with her (and made an impression) on the battlefield pretty unconditionally. Just look at Kira and AA, Athrun, Andy, Amagi, she had pretty much trusted them based on instinct. There was never any reason for her to give Athrun and Andy the benefit of the doubt, but she trust them anyway, and imo, that's part of what makes Cagalli, Cagalli. She trust people in general, sometimes the right ones (Kira) sometimes wrong ones (Seiran).

And imo, Orb's changing influence in the world... and it becoming more powerful than Cagalli and Uzumi had ever anticipate it ever be is going to take a toll on Cagalli's mind. Even at the end of GSD, she still just a fledgeling politician... a lot better than when she started out in GSD, but still a fledgeling none the less.

As far as we know, Cagalli by end of GSD had sign a peace treaty with PLANT... (did she lead Earth to sign it? I can't remember)... even so, I don't think she ever said anything about "actively" maintaining world's peace by taking offensesive measure... as far as we know, it was Kira who said he is willing to fight... for all we know, in the Movie, Cagalli might want to uphold Uzumi's ideal and not actively invovle in other nation's revolution wars and terrorism that Kira decide to fight under the Clyne wagon. Heck, maybe Cagalli actually needed Shinn to yell at her once again to knock some sense into her that Uzumi's ideal just wasn't enough for a world this day and the ones with "power" should do more for the world than staying out of harm's way.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by 4tran

wingdarkness, in that case address the points however you like. Those of us who liked Shinn's development have put up lots of points – I'm just wondering if you actually have any rational reasons for dismissing them. I don't really care about whatever passion you have about the subject, I only care about whether you have a logical basis for your positions.

Dude what didn't I answer? It's not like the question you asked was that deep...Does Final Plus contribute to Shinn's character in an interesting way? Yes it does...Do I find that contribution good or overwelmingly acceptable or believable?? No I do not...What the hell else do you want? I've stated my logic a billion times...It was forced development that was a means to an end rather than a means of valid progression...I can't jump the fence and be on the side of people who accept it because it was better than nothing...That's not how I operate...

As for the rest I'm doing just fine...99% of this thread seems to have gotten my point, my logic, and most importantly my passion for Gundam...

we tend to like Shinn's development in Final Plus because it was an actual sign of character growth

Character growth that was forced and virtually unacceptable to most Shinn supporters...It's the classic "Better than nothing argument..." Some of us feel nothing is better which is as psuedo-logistical as what we got...

Destiny works a lot better if there was no rivalry in it to begin with

Then how in Zeus' name can you love this $hit when they force feed us a souless rivalry all series? Next your gonna say, there should be no rivalry in Gundam (When this is shown to be one of it's most visceral, successful aspects [Must I list all of them?])... After that your gonna tell me they should do away with Gundams alltogether too...Just a series of Dullindal and Lacus playing a mental chessgame...Wait a minute isn't that your favorite rivalry?

An appeal to emotion in a logical debate is basically an attempt to deflect from the actual points in an argument.

Boo-hoo...You just discredited every lawyer that has ever won any case... If you can't capture the attention of an audience you can't really succeed with an argument in a venue such as this...I have flair, I have flavor and I have won or succeeded in my argumentative quests more times than I can count...I wear my passion on my sleeve at times, but that's because I love Gundam...As for the Shinn thing, ain't much logical about any of it...I have had straight content debates with you before, but in this case I don't see what more you want...If you don't really understand me, to quote one of my favorite lyricists Rass Kass "My style is sex and violence, vocabulary and science in an uneasy alliance..." Which means I ain't you...I have my own style of debating points and issues that has worked for me...

Originally Posted by Nightengale

However, we're talking about wingdarkness here, whose flair and emotion in every post he makes, while very insightful, can't really be seen without some form of bias. 4tran wants wd to go OOC and type like him for once.

Once again, how else would you have me answer the question? Even If I answer with no concievable bias, I'm still gonna go the route of un-natural or forced character development...The primary issue here as that some people want to jump that hurdle because they believe it makes Shinn a better character or more interesting (whatever that means) character forsaking the issue I'm arguing against....Now I asked 4tran what question he wanted me to answer and i answered it...I've had many arguments where I strip my emotions, but I don't see how that will help here...I've been pretty clear as you yourself have admitted...

[Nightengale]

You see, it all boils down to this, really.

The self proclaimed old Shinn fans believe,
1. his character development was weak.
2. his character development was inconsistent.
3. his character development was horribly executed.
4.his character development was not believable and pulled out of their @$$es.

Main point : Final Shinn + Plus is a disgrace to thee who thinks nothing is better than something, in which they believe that something disgraces Shinn's character more than nothing.

The wingdarkness claimed new Shinn fans believe,
1. his character development was weak. Even idiots will admit that.
2. However, his character development was consistent. Horribly executed, but still believable and consistent. (( It's far from a 180 that a lot of people think. ))
3. His character development was horribly executed.
4. His character development was believable and improved Shinn as a whole.

Main point : Final Shinn + Plus is still a pale shadow of what he could've been, given better writing/character development/etc, however we believe that the minor substance given to his character that led him to the Road of Final Plus is something that contributed to his character, rather than him having nothing.

[Undertaker]

I'm not a Shinn fan, in fact sometime I use the work s#ck on him, but he is an interesting charater to dissect and analyze.

The main reason I don't like him was because with the hints that pops up during his development it seems he'll either turn into a redemption-type character or ends up as mad and self-destruct. In Final Plus (even episdoe 50 hinted), show to be the former of the two path, which is great, but like so many had said before, the change seem force. We know and can imagine the whys but we can't explain the hows.

I agree with Bleed Kaga's analysis that the end would be much more receptive if there were more Kira/Shinn moments. The series teased us with they meeting each other in the early part of it yet there was no development. I also blame Athrun for this, he should have been a better mentor that he had and could have told him more about Kira or what each of them went through during last war. Instead of reasoning with Shinn, Athrun has either been puzzling at best with his advices considering how much was going on during last war.

I firmly believe that if Athrun had told Shinn about everything that is behind the first war Shinn will not end up where he is with Durandal and it also make taht final scenes much more convincing and easier to digest.

Even though I'm a Kira fan, I still can't see how Shinn changed this quickly toward Kira other than a regretting Shinn got mesmerized by the power of the eyes bewteen the King Kira and Queen Lacus.


As for Shinn hatred toward Cagalli, I really do think it could be avoided as well if Athrun try harder. Yes, Athrun did ask Luna to pass words to Cagalli that she also lost her family and friends during the war as well, but to a rage person, it means little if it is just that. Instead, if Athrun go to shin and tell him HOW cagalli lost her friends and family, than it might have more impact. Also, I don't think many people, at least the civilianss, knows exactly how Uzumi died. I believe that other then the few on Kusanagi, most people just know that Uzumi died during the battle and didn't know that he and others actually had chance to leave but DECIDED TO REMAIN in the base as a way to stand by their decision. If Shinn knows that, I doubt he would say those words when he first met Cagalli, therefore, if Athrun bother to explain on all those advices he gave Shinn, the whole series will have a different complextion.

This is most evident during Kira and Athrun meeting, while some might said Athrun won the argument because Kira and Cagalli left without words, I have always believe the only thing Athrun won was the shouting part. He fail to address all the doubts and questions Kira has, and turn the meeting into a one-sided shouting match. When Kira raised the assasination attempt, Athrun only said it sould have been a renegade faction, but fail to show any proof that Durandal didn't do it than condaming Kira on why he and archangel had not joint Durandal yet, when it is obvious Kira did the right thing by stand neutral while they are still suspecting Durandal, Than Athrun again fail to address Meer situation when Kira asked, and the meeting ends up with virtually no infomation gained on Kiras side and Athrun missed a chance to compare notes with Kira which might lead to faster revelation on Durandal's plot.

So, in the end I believe it is Athrun that fail to connect both ship (Minerva and Archangel) and both main characters (Kira and Shinn) and leave us with an unsatisfied ending of the series.



PS. I do wish they show more about after war in Gundam series. I'm dying to know if Kira decide to stay with Lacus in Plant or not. The shots and the flow of their relation seems to sugget that he did, but he does have the rank of an Orb General.

[Crusader]

Shin has proven he is not a leader, and that thinking for himself is hard. I like shin. anyhow, i think shin "bowed" to kira becuase he and lacus were in a sense a leader. He found others to manipulate him. lol.

[wingdarkness]

Well there seems to be an influx of some newer members who are giving there opins on alot of stuff that weve discussed in this vindictive cyclical cycle for nearly a year now...I thought I'd link them to the orginal Final Plus thread that has to be one of the most entertaining reads in forum history (Great debates and great humor thru-out the thread)...here are the first reactions to pretty much what we have been talking about here in-terms of Shinn's character...The emotions and comments are much rawer since this takes place right when FP originally aired...Obviously feel free to comment on the episode itself if you feel the need...Here it is....

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

4tran wants wd to go OOC and type like him for once.

That's sort of it. I was pretty sure that I knew what wingdarkness' position was, I was just wondering if he actually had any rational points with which to back it up. I believe that his response settles that question quite conclusively.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

It's funny how you bring that up, because part of the reason why Cagalli did end up agreeing to ally with EA is precisely because Shinn yelled that exact point at Cagalli... and Cagalli took that to heart...(the flashback Cagalli had when she gave up convincing the cabinet to not ally EA is one of Shinn yelling at her) but when Cagalli tries to be pragmatic about Orb's safety first by allying EA, Shinn still yells at her for it again! >.>;

I found that very ironic as well. If Shinn had actually thought things through, he'd have realized that Uzumi's best move when faced with invasion was to actually ally with the EA and launch an attack on Carpentaria.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

Sure, Shinn had attempt to shoot her, but it's on a battlefield, and he's on ZAFT side back then... As far as Cagalli know, she and AA might not even know where that beam come from - it's a battlefield after all... If anyone who raised a gun at Cagalli don't deserve a post in Orb then, none of Amagi crew would have been accepted for all those missles the Orb's fleet had directed at Cagalli and AA. All of them were acting on order as far as Cagalli is concern.

I'm referring to the attack in episode 28. Nobody else was firing at that point, and Shinn simply took matters on his own initiative. And he only attacked her because he had a grudge against her. This is not the kind of action that is forgivable.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

And you forget there's one difference between Lincoln/Reagan and Cagalli... she's a woman, and thus many of her decisions has emotional attachment to them. She has always trust the people who have cross path with her (and made an impression) on the battlefield pretty unconditionally. Just look at Kira and AA, Athrun, Andy, Amagi, she had pretty much trusted them based on instinct. There was never any reason for her to give Athrun and Andy the benefit of the doubt, but she trust them anyway, and imo, that's part of what makes Cagalli, Cagalli. She trust people in general, sometimes the right ones (Kira) sometimes wrong ones (Seiran).

I wouldn't pin anything on Cagalli on the basis that she's a woman. While she made lots of errors in judgment, she's also taken steps to redress that fault. In contrast to the your examples, the problem is that all of her encounters thus far have given absolutely no reason to trust Shinn.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

As far as we know, Cagalli by end of GSD had sign a peace treaty with PLANT... (did she lead Earth to sign it? I can't remember)... even so, I don't think she ever said anything about "actively" maintaining world's peace by taking offensesive measure...

The final battle in Destiny was fought between PLANT and the Orb-EA-Terminal alliance. The EA no longer exists as a viable nation, and Terminal was never a nation to begin with. Thus the only signatories at the peace table were Orb and PLANT (as far as I know). By default, Orb represented the rest of Earth – and by default, Orb will become embroiled with any widespread conflicts. That's sort of the price of leadership: it confers a lot of power, but it also incurs a great deal of responsibility.