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Cephei Mordred · 2010-09-20, 18:04

Probably a dumb question that I could find out the answer to myself, but...

Did CC know all along that Marianne was hiding inside Anya?

azul120 · 2010-09-20, 18:09

CC basically knew everything, so yes.

Betteroffer · 2010-09-20, 21:56

I don't think this is actually the case. If I recall, in China, when C.C. attacked the Mordred and Anya had her "episode", C.C. was surprised at first and then said something to the effect of "I see, so this is..." and was cut off by Asahina. I think that this would at least allow a case to be made that C.C. didn't know who exactly Marianne was hiding in until that moment.

morbosfist · 2010-09-20, 23:37

That might fly if C.C. hadn't been talking to Marianne ever since Marianne "died". Marianne makes a point of this when describing what happened. C.C. always knew.

Xander · 2010-09-21, 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

I think that this would at least allow a case to be made that C.C. didn't know who exactly Marianne was hiding in until that moment.

Or, as an alternative, that C.C. simply didn't know where Marianne's "host" was located at the time.

Cephei Mordred · 2010-09-21, 13:02

Also...was it ever explained anywhere why Anya and Gino hung out so much?

Betteroffer · 2010-09-21, 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by morbosfist

That might fly if C.C. hadn't been talking to Marianne ever since Marianne "died". Marianne makes a point of this when describing what happened. C.C. always knew.

Does Marianne explicitly state that C.C. knew she was in Anya at any point? I remember that Bismarck apparantly didn't even know she was "alive" despite having his own Geass and being in on the other aspects of Ragnarok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xander

Or, as an alternative, that C.C. simply didn't know where Marianne's "host" was located at the time.

As a Knight of the Round, Anya was rather well known, as was the Mordred, so I doubt C.C. would be in the dark as to who she was facing.

Xander · 2010-09-21, 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Does Marianne explicitly state that C.C. knew she was in Anya at any point? I remember that Bismarck apparantly didn't even know she was "alive" despite having his own Geass and being in on the other aspects of Ragnarok.

Actually, I believe you are correct about that after checking episode 20 of R2.

During the sequence where "Marianne" finally meets C.C. and brings her back there isn't any evident sign of mutual recognition until she changes into her original appearance. Then again, it's worth noting C.C. didn't really mention Anya by name either. In fact, she seemed ignorant enough about her identity.

Quote:

As a Knight of the Round, Anya was rather well known, as was the Mordred, so I doubt C.C. would be in the dark as to who she was facing.

I would say the evidence is insufficient, to be quite honest. C.C. herself makes no comments to that effect.

I also don't recall anyone, at least not among the general population, automatically identifying Anya with Mordred or Gino with Tristan before having already interacted with them in some sort of capacity (ie: Villetta was still posing as a teacher at Ashford Academy when Anya and Gino briefly enrolled).

Cephei Mordred · 2010-09-21, 23:59

It's a fair question, that has many possible reasons...and I was wondering if it was ever addressed in any of the other media.

Cephei Mordred · 2010-09-23, 00:59

Actually...Gino and Anya are both nobles, right? They are probably longtime childhood friends.

So that makes them good de facto partners, especially since part of Gino's role seems to be babysitting her to an extent. Without supervision, Anya would probably be exhibiting lack of "common sense" far more often, like in the case with the school event.

FoxxFireArt · 2010-09-25, 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by morbosfist

That might fly if C.C. hadn't been talking to Marianne ever since Marianne "died". Marianne makes a point of this when describing what happened. C.C. always knew.

That was always one of the more damning things against C.C. That she knew the whole time the truth of what happened to Marianne. Watching as Lelouch went after his family in order to discover what happened to his mother and her real killer. All of this while C.C. was in contact with Marianne

Though, that doesn't mean that C.C. know for a fact just who Marianne was in. Just that she was inhabiting another person and talking to her via the World of C. She did discover later in that battle at China that he was the pilot of the Modred, but couldn't see her.

I did finish writing a beginner's guide to the Code Geass series on an anime community site. It's pretty cool. Sort of a mixture of facebook/wikipedia/ANN. It's just odd how little response it's getting on the site. One jerk is even mocking all of Code Geass. Can you believe this person compared it to the Xena series? I'd tell you where you could read it, but I'm unsure if that kind of link would be inappropriate.

Betteroffer · 2010-09-25, 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxxFireArt

That was always one of the more damning things against C.C. That she knew the whole time the truth of what happened to Marianne. Watching as Lelouch went after his family in order to discover what happened to his mother and her real killer. All of this while C.C. was in contact with Marianne.

This part really bothered me as well. I had hoped that there would be some reason for all of this, and I would like to believe that there was one in the original plans, and that the infamous timeslot change can be blamed for what we got, but it's anyone's guess.

In truth I think C.C. came off as a bit colder in R2, but I attribute this more to Unfortunate Implications and careless writing than actual intent on the writers' part.

azul120 · 2010-09-25, 18:59

I believe it's all because C. C. only cared about having her contract fulfilled so she could pass on her code, and of course, Lelouch ended up a pawn in said plan.

Hooves · 2010-09-25, 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by azul120

I believe it's all because C. C. only cared about having her contract fulfilled so she could pass on her code, and of course, Lelouch ended up a pawn in said plan.

Spoiler for C.C's emotions at last episode:

Betteroffer · 2010-09-25, 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by azul120

I believe it's all because C. C. only cared about having her contract fulfilled so she could pass on her code, and of course, Lelouch ended up a pawn in said plan.

True, but in such instances a character usually undergoes some measure of growth into a more compassionate individual as the plot progresses. In the first season, C.C. was aloof, standoffish and secretive, but there were glimpses into something deeper, or at least room for the audience to assume the possibility. She left Lelouch to face Mao, saying she would terminate their contract but "let" Lelouch keep his Geass, and went so far as to give him a measure of comfort after the SAZ massacre, suggesting that she may be warming to Lelouch and/or not as selfish as she lets on (though giving a power like Geass to a 7 year old Mao is dancing on the Moral Event Horizon for me).

R2 comes along and she infiltrates Ashford just to get Cheese-kun back, thereby jeoporadizing not only Lelouch, but Nunally as well, makes no effort to seek out or help Lelouch in Turn 7, leaving it to Kallen, and even talking with Marianne, saying that she was unconcerned about the BK being finished without Lelouch so long as her contract is fulfilled (i.e.: "Me > All of Japan"), abandons Lelouch by sealing her Code away (confirmed by Marianne) even when she knew the predicament he was currently in and that he didn't hate her for all she had done thus far.

Admittedly C.C. does seem to have the afforementioned growth and seems to be at least a happier person by the series end, but it didn't feel well handled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooves

Spoiler for C.C's emotions at last episode:

It wasn't. Lelouch is dead. Word of God has stated that he is dead. C.C. was presumably crying for him since she knew he was going to his death.

Cephei Mordred · 2010-09-26, 14:20

Now, there would have been an interesting ending...

CC sabotaging the Zero Requiem by somehow forcing Lelouch to take her code.

It would go along with all that stuff you just said, right?

Nogitsune · 2010-09-26, 15:20

Well, personally, I'm fine with how the C.C. issue was handled. She's lived for several centuries only wishing for death, so warming up to Lelouch seems rather insignificant in comparison. She cared about Mao, too, but ultimately dropped him. Lelouch is different because he is both self-reliant and strangely kind, but C.C. knows that people can change, so amongst other things, she needed to see more of him first. She also seemed to have a good relationship with Marianne.

But how was she supposed to approach the subject anyway? "By the way, your mother, whose death you've been wanting to avenge for longer than we've known each other, is really alive in another person's body and thinks you're hilarious"? Let's say Lelouch would have believed her and not gone into denial, C.C. could not possibly know what he'd do next. Go mad like Mao? Start hating everything? Jump off a cliff? Hesitate long enough that the Black Knights are destroyed?

Chances were it would harm both Lelouch and her plans.

The sealing away her Code thing was random, though. Then again, she's lived for so long that she's allowed to be a little random.

Cephei Mordred · 2010-09-26, 16:20

Yeah...I think with Mao it was merely a stupid, extremely costly mistake and not neccesarily a Moral Event Horizon. And Nogitsune makes a good point about not telling Lelouch.

As for the sealing way, wasn't it so that Charles couldn't take her code, possibly because 1. She wanted Lelouch to have it, and/or 2. Giving him her code would cause Instrumentality?

azul120 · 2010-09-26, 17:02

Probably so Lelouch could fulfill her wish to smile.

Really though, informing Lelouch about Marianne could have saved a LOT of trouble.

Cephei Mordred · 2010-09-26, 17:08

Are you saying that you would have taken the information in stride?

Even if you could, could you honestly be sure if Lelouch could, or if anyone else could?

2010-09-20, 23:37	Link #7724
morbosfist Spinning Lotus Join Date: Jul 2008	That might fly if C.C. hadn't been talking to Marianne ever since Marianne "died". Marianne makes a point of this when describing what happened. C.C. always knew. __________________

2010-09-26, 15:20	Link #7737
Nogitsune Shameless Fangirl Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Germany Age: 33	Well, personally, I'm fine with how the C.C. issue was handled. She's lived for several centuries only wishing for death, so warming up to Lelouch seems rather insignificant in comparison. She cared about Mao, too, but ultimately dropped him. Lelouch is different because he is both self-reliant and strangely kind, but C.C. knows that people can change, so amongst other things, she needed to see more of him first. She also seemed to have a good relationship with Marianne. But how was she supposed to approach the subject anyway? "By the way, your mother, whose death you've been wanting to avenge for longer than we've known each other, is really alive in another person's body and thinks you're hilarious"? Let's say Lelouch would have believed her and not gone into denial, C.C. could not possibly know what he'd do next. Go mad like Mao? Start hating everything? Jump off a cliff? Hesitate long enough that the Black Knights are destroyed? Chances were it would harm both Lelouch and her plans. The sealing away her Code thing was random, though. Then again, she's lived for so long that she's allowed to be a little random. __________________ "I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia

2010-09-20, 18:04	Link #7721
Cephei Mordred Lord Knight of SYTOM Join Date: Feb 2010	Probably a dumb question that I could find out the answer to myself, but... Did CC know all along that Marianne was hiding inside Anya?

2010-09-20, 18:09	Link #7722
azul120 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	CC basically knew everything, so yes.

2010-09-20, 21:56	Link #7723
Betteroffer Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009	I don't think this is actually the case. If I recall, in China, when C.C. attacked the Mordred and Anya had her "episode", C.C. was surprised at first and then said something to the effect of "I see, so this is..." and was cut off by Asahina. I think that this would at least allow a case to be made that C.C. didn't know who exactly Marianne was hiding in until that moment.

2010-09-21, 13:02	Link #7726
Cephei Mordred Lord Knight of SYTOM Join Date: Feb 2010	Also...was it ever explained anywhere why Anya and Gino hung out so much?

2010-09-21, 23:59	Link #7729
Cephei Mordred Lord Knight of SYTOM Join Date: Feb 2010	It's a fair question, that has many possible reasons...and I was wondering if it was ever addressed in any of the other media.

2010-09-23, 00:59	Link #7730
Cephei Mordred Lord Knight of SYTOM Join Date: Feb 2010	Actually...Gino and Anya are both nobles, right? They are probably longtime childhood friends. So that makes them good de facto partners, especially since part of Gino's role seems to be babysitting her to an extent. Without supervision, Anya would probably be exhibiting lack of "common sense" far more often, like in the case with the school event.

2010-09-25, 18:59	Link #7733
azul120 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	I believe it's all because C. C. only cared about having her contract fulfilled so she could pass on her code, and of course, Lelouch ended up a pawn in said plan.

2010-09-26, 14:20	Link #7736
Cephei Mordred Lord Knight of SYTOM Join Date: Feb 2010	Now, there would have been an interesting ending... CC sabotaging the Zero Requiem by somehow forcing Lelouch to take her code. It would go along with all that stuff you just said, right?

2010-09-26, 16:20	Link #7738
Cephei Mordred Lord Knight of SYTOM Join Date: Feb 2010	Yeah...I think with Mao it was merely a stupid, extremely costly mistake and not neccesarily a Moral Event Horizon. And Nogitsune makes a good point about not telling Lelouch. As for the sealing way, wasn't it so that Charles couldn't take her code, possibly because 1. She wanted Lelouch to have it, and/or 2. Giving him her code would cause Instrumentality?

2010-09-26, 17:02	Link #7739
azul120 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	Probably so Lelouch could fulfill her wish to smile. Really though, informing Lelouch about Marianne could have saved a LOT of trouble.

2010-09-26, 17:08	Link #7740
Cephei Mordred Lord Knight of SYTOM Join Date: Feb 2010	Are you saying that you would have taken the information in stride? Even if you could, could you honestly be sure if Lelouch could, or if anyone else could?