Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's your opinion. I don't share it. A lot of people don't.

If you ask people "Is it worse to kill one person, or is it worse to kill a million people", just about everybody will go with "a million".




If it's due to an immediate situation, and it's a clear-cut inescapable choice (either send Madoka to her death or let billions die) then yes, it's worth it. In my opinion.

So one person's death is fine? How about a hundred. How about a thousand. How many people does it take for it to become wrong?

You've already established what sort of value system you use, now we're just talking about numbers.

Originally Posted by Solace

One life is a tragedy, many lives is a statistic.



QB is evil because we're judging him by human standards. He's lied and manipulated to get what he wants and he doesn't care about the lives he is destroying to do it. So arguing semantics of evil aside, I'll grant you that the label is based on human subjectivity. That doesn't mean that we should just say "oh ok, he's not evil just misunderstood" and let him get away with killing an entire species either.

My point is that humans would just as quickly make the SAME decision QB has made (or his people have). It's human arrogance to believe we would do differently. Human beings like to justify and judge situations, though this sort of behavior isn't very consistent. Fundamentally, I think a lot of people's definition of "evil" is flawed. All I'm asking for is a logical argument WHY people think QB is evil-- I don't think it's as simple to call him "evil" and be done with it.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by taofd

So one person's death is fine?

Of course it's not "fine". That's not what I said at all.

But when somebody is forced into a hard inescapable decision, they need to weigh the two sides against each other, and choose the "lesser evil" if the choice is between two evils.

Every individual death is tragic. But each additional death just spreads the tragedy out further.

Stalin said "One death is a tragedy. A thousand deaths is a statistic", which reflects how people not directly connected to the death or deaths tend to view it.

But in reality, a thousand deaths is one death, a thousand times over. So it's a thousand times the same tragedy.


Incidentally, I don't quite agree with Homura's overall approach. I can certainly understand her prioritizing Madoka over the other girls, since she was particularly close to Madoka, and Madoka earned that by being a great friend to Homura. But I don't like how easily Homura is willing to completely give up on Mami, Sayaka, and Kyoko.

Who knows, if she had made saving them secondary goals, maybe she'd now have the forces necessary to fight Walpurgis Night without involving Madoka.

[creb]

We seriously need a new sticky thread titled "POINTLESS MORAL ARGUMENT VOMIT" so we can read these posts in peace.

[Mentar]

Well, there's no point really trying to debate the obvious, I only want to point out that there has been an AMAZING development from QB the ally in the fight against evil witches and enabler of young girls' dreams to QB the door-to-door pusher who shrugs off the genocide of a planet if it helps him reach his sales target. And I find it really fascinating how far people will go to stick with him. Some people jumped off, but some people will never change. And after his chuckling "well, not my problem", I don't really see how Urobuchi could escalate further.

About the Homura self-healing: I'd say that this was a very nice way to demonstrate her growing aptitude in wielding the MG magic. We know that her body is a husk (unlike Kamijou, who is still human), and that the MG magic allows this husk to heal even grave battle wounds. Compared to that, fixing an eyesight issue is a really minor thing.

[Archon_Wing]

On another note, I liked how they stuck the opening song at the end. It all makes sense now.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Of course it's not "fine". That's not what I said at all.

But when somebody is forced into a hard inescapable decision, they need to weigh the two sides against each other, and choose the "lesser evil" if the choice is between two evils.

Every individual death is tragic. But each additional death just spreads the tragedy out further.

Stalin said "One death is a tragedy. A thousand deaths is a statistic", which reflects how people not directly connected to the death or deaths tend to view it.

But in reality, a thousand deaths is one death, a thousand times over. So it's a thousand times the same tragedy.


Incidentally, I don't quite agree with Homura's overall approach. I can certainly understand her prioritizing Madoka over the other girls, since she was particularly close to Madoka, and Madoka earned that by being a great friend to Homura. But I don't like how easily Homura is willing to completely give up on Mami, Sayaka, and Kyoko.

Who knows, if she had made saving them secondary goals, maybe she'd now have the forces necessary to fight Walpurgis Night without involving Madoka.

So if we're killing the equivalent of 1 life (earth's population) to save the lives of all the sentient cultures in the universe, is it worthwhile? I think people are conveniently ignoring looking from QB's perspective on this whole matter and finding ways to justify against or diminish the truth of QB's argument.

Originally Posted by creb

We seriously need a new sticky thread titled "POINTLESS MORAL ARGUMENT VOMIT" so we can read these posts in peace.

Moral arguments are NEVER pointless. It helps people develop robust ethical systems that can stand up to dynamic situations (such as this).

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by taofd

Why is it different? Is that more because they now have access to magic, or rather that because the "shell" is fundamentally different? Besides, for the shell to have the same functionality as the body, a lot of complex wiring is required. In any case, it's not a small feat.

Well, I suppose it's easier to heal a soulless body then.

Something like use less magic etc.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by taofd

So if we're killing the equivalent of 1 life (earth's population) to save the lives of all the sentient cultures in the universe, is it worthwhile? I think people are conveniently ignoring looking from QB's perspective on this whole matter and finding ways to justify against or diminish the truth of QB's argument.

Here's the thing: Kyubey gets his energy qouta and just high tails it. Couldn't he at least try to help? I mean, I'm presuming that with his people being a highly advanced space-traveling race and all, that they have some sort of devices that could at least help in the struggle against Witch Madoka.

It just looks very bad to me for Kyubey to just high tail it like that, seemingly without a care in this world.

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by taofd

Why is it different? Is that more because they now have access to magic, or rather that because the "shell" is fundamentally different? Besides, for the shell to have the same functionality as the body, a lot of complex wiring is required. In any case, it's not a small feat.

Their bodies are magical constructs that are superior to normal human bodies. Ie, think Superman's body vs a normal human's. The soul gem acts as a power source for these new abilities. Considering QB has a ton of extra bodies he can attach himself to, I'd say this could possibly be a QB modification to the magical girl system.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

Well, I suppose it's easier to heal a soulless body then.

Eyesight is purely a function of physical anatomy, which brings me back to my original point. If she can cure eyesight, what else can she do. To some extent she must be able to repair parts of the body (as also seen by Mami healing QB as well). If this is an issue with the AMOUNT of magical energy necessary to pull off this feat, then could not Madoka recreate an entire human body (theoretically)?

QB has already mentioned that it would be possible for Madoka to "revert" Sayaka back to a normal girl...

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by taofd

Eyesight is purely a function of physical anatomy, which brings me back to my original point. If she can cure eyesight, what else can she do. To some extent she must be able to repair parts of the body (as also seen by Mami healing QB as well). If this is an issue with the AMOUNT of magical energy necessary to pull off this feat, then could not Madoka recreate an entire human body (theoretically)?

QB has already mentioned that it would be possible for Madoka to "revert" Sayaka back to a normal girl...

Considering QB can also swap bodies, it wouldn't be too far fetched to believe they actually use the same type of enhanced bodies, which is why she can use her magic to heal him.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by taofd

So if we're killing the equivalent of 1 life (earth's population) to save the lives of all the sentient cultures in the universe, is it worthwhile? I think people are conveniently ignoring looking from QB's perspective on this whole matter and finding ways to justify against or diminish the truth of QB's argument.



Moral arguments are NEVER pointless. It helps people develop robust ethical systems that can stand up to dynamic situations (such as this).

I agree with you on that every life is worth as much as every other. But that's exactly the perspective from which QB is evil (at the very least, his actions are unacceptable), his solution involves lying to innocent girls and leading to their eventual and INEVITABLE ruin.

I agree with you on that a lot of people tend to jump too quick into making a final judgment on characters but hey, that's how most people are and they have all the right to do so. At some point, you have to stop trying to be absolutely correct and just go with what you have anyway. A perfect answer can never be found, or, rather, finding it might be possible but it'd be unreasonable to try and find it because it takes far too much time and effort and we don't even know if it exists for sure. Anyway, allow me to try and be objective here and raise a few quesitons although I have to admit I side more with the arguments you are making.

The primary question quickly turns into what exactly is evil. Don't the people who describe QB as evil, and that is the majority, have all the rights to consider him evil? In what basis is your argument for what is evil better than theirs? Certainly not on a numerical basis since more people find what QB is doing evil. And what other logical basis is there? I don't see how your moral values are necessarily more moral than Mentar's?

[Seitsuki]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But when somebody is forced into a hard inescapable decision, they need to weigh the two sides against each other, and choose the "lesser evil" if the choice is between two evils.

Every individual death is tragic. But each additional death just spreads the tragedy out further.

Stalin said "One death is a tragedy. A thousand deaths is a statistic", which reflects how people not directly connected to the death or deaths tend to view it.

But in reality, a thousand deaths is one death, a thousand times over. So it's a thousand times the same tragedy.

You know what first sprang to mind when I read this? Anti-spirals

They were pretty much trying to prevent the exact opposite of what QB was trying to prevent. With exactly the same mindset: that they knew better. I think that humans, as the only sentient species known so far, will always have an "arrogant mindset" as long as that situation continues and chaff at any perceived injustices or inferiority, simply because of the whole "we are humans how dare you rargh etc" mentality. Yet it is greater arrogance, and worse, to believe you know what is best for others when you understand nothing about them. Take the Australian "relocation" of Aboriginal children, or imperial Britain's colonisation and forcing their creed upon others. They were done with the best of intentions (which QB sure doesn't have). They might even have done some good (which we sure as hell can't be certain QB did). And yet we would not call it right. To sacrifice the few to save the many should not be considered a success. A success is if you were able to overcome the developments which would force you to sacrifice anyone. Once you believe it's alright to give on on some "for the greater good", you've already lost.

"If you don't try to save one life, you'll never save any."

Just my thoughts.

[Dawnbringerz]

After watching the episode once again.

Maybe Homura's time leap never happened in the first place, and now we're stuck in Homura's endless dream.

She has become the strongest witch in the first world and her conscious lives in her dream of trying to save Madoka.


That would be the best troll ending in the anime history

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by taofd

Eyesight is purely a function of physical anatomy, which brings me back to my original point. If she can cure eyesight, what else can she do. To some extent she must be able to repair parts of the body (as also seen by Mami healing QB as well). If this is an issue with the AMOUNT of magical energy necessary to pull off this feat, then could not Madoka recreate an entire human body (theoretically)?

QB has already mentioned that it would be possible for Madoka to "revert" Sayaka back to a normal girl...

Yes, I also said this in the past that Madoka may be the only one who is capable of doing something like that. QB even said that she could become a god. But this is only true if QB is not BS.

Well, I personally don't think that Madoka was that impressive according to the episode. She always died or became a witch in the end. Definitely nothing overpower like white-devil.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Dawnbringerz

After watching the episode once again.

Maybe Homura's time leap never happened in the first place, and now we're stuck in Homura's endless dream.

She has become the strongest witch in the first world and her conscious lives in her dream of trying to save Madoka.


That would be the best troll ending in the anime history

Well, the new crazy theory is that Walpurgis is Homura when she becomes a witch. She's the super strong witch because of the accumulated grief of countless time resets that failed. Because of her time manipulation powers, the idea is that Walpurgis is able to jump times as well, in order to explain the seeming paradox of how witch-Homura could exist prior to Homura actually turning into a witch.

This crazy theory is mostly based off the gear design of Walpurgis, and how Homura is the magical girl with gears associated with her.

Personally, considering how easy it was to think Walpurgis was Sayaka, I'd be pretty hesitant to use visuals again to associate Walpurgis with Homura.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

I agree with you on that every life is worth as much as every other. But that's exactly the perspective from which QB is evil (at the very least, his actions are unacceptable), his solution involves lying to innocent girls and leading to their eventual and INEVITABLE ruin.

I agree with you on that a lot of people tend to jump too quick into making a final judgment on characters but hey, that's how most people are and they have all the right to do so. At some point, you have to stop trying to be absolutely correct and just go with what you have anyway. A perfect answer can never be found, or, rather, finding it might be possible but it'd be unreasonable to try and find it because it takes far too much time and effort and we don't even know if it exists for sure. Anyway, allow me to try and be objective here and raise a few quesitons although I have to admit I side more with the arguments you are making.

The primary question quickly turns into what exactly is evil. Don't the people who describe QB as evil, and that is the majority, have all the rights to consider him evil? In what basis is your argument for what is evil better than theirs? Certainly not on a numerical basis since more people find what QB is doing evil. And what other logical basis is there? I don't see how your moral values are necessarily more moral than Mentar's?

Thanks, you've put together one of the most well thought out arguments I've read so far. You are absolutely right that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I just poke and prod and make sure that opinion is rightly so. After all, didn't Socrates himself try to stimulate these sort of moral discussions. Nothing ever happened to h-

Oh that's right, he was sentenced to death for corrupting the citizenry and spreading unrest.

But seriously, if someone strongly believes something and if they are even ready to CONDEMN another individual for their beliefs, they damn right better be sure of their logic.

Just to be on the record, I don't agree with QB's methods, and I sure as hell don't feel he is right for what he is doing. However, I've found myself questioning if it would be right to do the same thing if we were in his shoes. It's not a comfortable question nor one I know the answer to.

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by squishycloud

This might be how it ends. Kyubey says that she was more powerful than he imagined. Maybe because she tapped into the power from her previous timelines

Madokestel That is all.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Dawnbringerz

A few moments ago, when I finished watching the episode for the Nth time and suddenly the ground started shaking,

I screamed in my mind "OMG! Was that Walpurgis really coming to Japan, and the fighting is causing the earthquake"


Too bad it's just a normal earthquake though.

Tsunami warnings for California issued. Crazy... guess Walpurgis Night is coming here too...

http://www.nws.noaa.gov/alerts/ca.ht...QTSUWCA.084400

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by creb

Well, the new crazy theory is that Walpurgis is Homura when she becomes a witch. She's the super strong witch because of the accumulated grief of countless time resets that failed. Because of her time manipulation powers, the idea is that Walpurgis is able to jump times as well, in order to explain the seeming paradox of how witch-Homura could exist prior to Homura actually turning into a witch.

This crazy theory is mostly based off the gear design of Walpurgis, and how Homura is the magical girl with gears associated with her.

Personally, considering how easy it was to think Walpurgis was Sayaka, I'd be pretty hesitant to use visuals again to associate Walpurgis with Homura.

Hmm, could work. Even as a witch, her love for Madoka keeps bringing her back to this point in time in which she thinks is the point in time that makes or breaks everything.

But yeah, not sure how anything resembling a good end could resolve from this though, other than Homura killing herself.