Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Gundamx]

Maybe they (only) plan to kiss each other in their marriage day?
( That's normal for old couple. )

[Kusa-San]

Ah, that reminds me that in Seed Nova, they, did, kissed each ther off screen and maybe even more (after all, Lunamaria got a nosebleed from it )

[Eidolon Sniper]

@ Kusa-san

So going by your reasoning, it means all merchandise showing Kira, Athrun, Shinn + random characters (without obligatory canon poses with whoever they are paired with at the moment) just side by side together have them in a very intimate relationship (this goes for all those spreads they do of other anime, showing just the male leads without their intended canon pairings)? Also, while we're in the discussion of SEED Nova, it must ALSO mean that Shinn wearing that Lacus cosplay must have also happened canonically by your logic.

@ BladeEntity

The only incident I recall where Kira and Lacus have shared the same beliefs was from the time Lacus (still mysteriously) cared for Kira in the PLANTs. Kira had always wanted to protect his friends to the best of his abilities even before he met Lacus. This was how Fllay nailed him to do her bidding - she knew which button to push (aside from the fact that this was also her revenge on Kira for getting her father killed despite his promise to her that he'd protect her father). This was what happened at the desert - he became her killing machine. Kira was gradually becoming doubtful of this strategy - killing people just so he could protect his friends, killing people to get peace from the enemies.

What ideal did Lacus have anyway? Peaceful resolution masquerading through the use of force, and just another way to disguise manipulating Kira to do her bidding as well. Whatever way we put it, in SEED Destiny, Kira's intervention in that Orb VS Minerva war only did more harm than bringing good. Killing people manning the Tannhauser that exploded, disabling MS left and right - this could easily be explained away that Kira was in a war wherein he wasn't wanted, and that it was just his job as Lacus' sword in order to protect the peace Lacus supposedly secured for them at the end of SEED.

But how different is this from Fllay's manipulation of Kira? Kira was in a war at that time too - he really couldn't help it if he had to mow people down to protect his friends - he was the only one (aside from Mwu) who could do it. At least Fllay apologized to him at the end. With Lacus' ideals, he just became a mindless drone shooting down MS just because it was threatening Lacus' peace.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

What ideal did Lacus have anyway? Peaceful resolution masquerading through the use of force,

Her ideal lies somewhere in between the two extremes of annihilating your enemy and letting your enemy walk all over you.

Whatever way we put it, in SEED Destiny, Kira's intervention in that Orb VS Minerva war only did more harm than bringing good.

That's a subjective matter at best.

Killing people manning the Tannhauser that exploded, disabling MS left and right - this could easily be explained away that Kira was in a war wherein he wasn't wanted, and that it was just his job as Lacus' sword in order to protect the peace Lacus supposedly secured for them at the end of SEED.

Except Kira was there because of Cagalli. After all these years, I can't believe you're still misrepresenting this fact.

But how different is this from Fllay's manipulation of Kira?

For one thing, Kira wasn't doing this out of guilt.

At least Fllay apologized to him at the end.

Unfortunately, Flay didn't get to apologize directly to Kira. But at any case, you say that as if Lacus has anything to apologize to Kira for, which is not true.

With Lacus' ideals, he just became a mindless drone shooting down MS just because it was threatening Lacus' peace.

Again, see Cagalli.

[aeriolewinters]

That would've been right, monstert... only if Lacus wasn't the reason why Kira was aggressive with ZAFT, the only reason they're not siding with it is because they suspected ZAFT of trying to kill Lacus...which Kira was pissed about after seeing Meer's broadcast.

The whole reason that Kira rejoined the war is because Lacus' life was threatened and here's where the inertia from Fllay's death works, Kira now believes that if he loses Lacus, he'd fail as a 'savior', this is where Kira's savior mentality comes in play. His wanting to save everybody, stems from his failure of getting Fllay back. Lacus may not realize it, but his relationship with her only affects him in the way that it validates him to be 'the savior' that he would've been for Fllay.

Also, does the whole Angel bath scene not register through you? the whole scene reeks of Lacus prodding Cagalli to interfere.

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

That would've been right, monstert...

I know it takes time, but it's just monster now, no t at the end.

only if Lacus wasn't the reason why Kira was aggressive with ZAFT, the only reason they're not siding with it is because they suspected ZAFT of trying to kill Lacus...which Kira was pissed about after seeing Meer's broadcast.

Sure, Kira did not trust ZAFT, or rather Durandal, because of Meer. But it's not like he was siding with the EA or with the Seirans. In fact, Kira was no more aggressive with ZAFT than he was with EA and Orb forces.

The whole reason that Kira rejoined the war is because Lacus' life was threatened and here's where the inertia from Fllay's death works, Kira now believes that if he loses Lacus, he'd fail as a 'savior', this is where Kira's savior mentality comes in play.

No, the whole reason for Kira interfering initially was to protect Cagalli. The only thing the attack on Lacus did was put the Archangel on the bottom of the Pacific ocean.

Also, does the whole Angel bath scene not register through you? the whole scene reeks of Lacus prodding Cagalli to interfere.

I'll have to look at that scene again (what episode is it?), but I don't remember Lacus telling Cagalli to interfere. Cagalli is the one who decides to do that.

[Rising Dragon]

Kira didn't do squat in Destiny until the attempt on Lacus' life was made. Only then did he start taking an active role. So no, Lacus is still the jumpstarter there, not Cagalli.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by monster

Her ideal lies somewhere in between the two extremes of annihilating your enemy and letting your enemy walk all over you.

So how does this differ from Fllay's again? Maybe it's because Fllay's pushed him to a killing machine kind of frenzy? Still, whatever you're trying to suggest, it's still the same. Lacus is also using Kira to weed out the people who are potentially harmful to what she is essentially preaching to the entire world. How and why you are still saying that this is different is beyond me.

That's a subjective matter at best. Except Kira was there because of Cagalli. Afterall these years, I can't believe you're still misrepresenting this fact. For one thing, Kira wasn't doing this out of guilt. Unfortunately, Flay didn't get to apologize directly to Kira. But at any case, you say that as if Lacus has anything to apologize to Kira for, which is not true. Again, see Cagalli.

Given Kira's pacifist nature (he HATES fighting and killing people senselessly in a fight, you know), do you really think that he'd do something like messing up MS from both sides just so he can get his point across? If he didn't kidnap Cagalli, if Cagalli wasn't written as someone who has her entire character growth in SEED discarded for SEED Destiny, that political marriage wouldn't have happened. And she wouldn't be pathetic, flying around in the Strike Rouge and crying. Cagalli would have already had that situation in Orb under control. It's like you're saying Cagalli is not capable of doing things herself that she needs Kira to support her.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Kira didn't do squat in Destiny until the attempt on Lacus' life was made. Only then did he start taking an active role. So no, Lacus is still the jumpstarter there, not Cagalli.

So? we're talking about Kira rejoining the war. He didn't do that until Cagalli decides to interfere.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

So how does this differ from Fllay's again? Maybe it's because Fllay's pushed him to a killing machine kind of frenzy? Still, whatever you're trying to suggest, it's still the same. Lacus is also using Kira to weed out the people who are potentially harmful to what she is essentially preaching to the entire world. How and why you are still saying that this is different is beyond me.

The difference is Flay wanted Kira to fight for her while Lacus would have preferred if Kira did not have to fight but is still willing to support him if he decides to fight.

I don't know why you can't see this difference. I have a feeling you have a broad definition of "using people." And if that's the case, then everybody must be using everybody else. So, whatever.

Given Kira's pacifist nature (he HATES fighting and killing people senselessly in a fight, you know), do you really think that he'd do something like messing up MS from both sides just so he can get his point across?

He did it before in SEED.

If he didn't kidnap Cagalli, if Cagalli wasn't written as someone who has her entire character growth in SEED discarded for SEED Destiny, that political marriage wouldn't have happened. And she wouldn't be pathetic, flying around in the Strike Rouge and crying. Cagalli would have already had that situation in Orb under control. It's like you're saying Cagalli is not capable of doing things herself that she needs Kira to support her.

Sorry, I'm not going to get into this topic. If you don't like how Cagalli's character was handled, that's up to you.

But regarding Kira supporting Cagalli, I'm talking, of course, about fighting.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by monster

So? we're talking about Kira rejoining the war. He didn't do that until Cagalli decides to interfere. The difference is Flay wanted Kira to fight for her while Lacus would have preferred if Kira did not have to fight but is still willing to support him if he decides to fight.

You DO know that the final wars in SEED and Destiny wouldn't have been won if Kira wasn't there. We wouldn't have Kira messing things up in Orb VS Minerva, that Angel Down episode, and when Lacus presented him the Strike Freedom.

So you really think Lacus isn't intending Kira to fight for her? What purpose do the Freedom and Strike Freedom have if Kira's not going to use those suits to...do what else...fight for her? Will Lacus give him these suits if she really has no intention of having him fight for her? Really? Why give these suits at all? Isn't it basically saying the same thing?

I don't know why you can't see this difference. I have a feeling you have a broad definition of "using people." And if that's the case, then everybody must be using everybody else.

I was just really focusing on the way Fllay has used him and the way Lacus is also currently using him. How did it end up as being a generalized statement for "using people"? Please try not to put other words into what I posted.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

You DO know that the final wars in SEED and Destiny wouldn't have been won if Kira wasn't there. We wouldn't have Kira messing things up in Orb VS Minerva, that Angel Down episode, and when Lacus presented him the Strike Freedom.

So you really think Lacus isn't intending Kira to fight for her? What purpose do the Freedom and Strike Freedom have if Kira's not going to use those suits to...do what else...fight for her? Will Lacus give him these suits if she really has no intention of having him fight for her? Really? Why give these suits at all? Isn't it basically saying the same thing?

Read what I posted again:

Lacus would have preferred if Kira did not have to fight but is still willing to support him if he decides to fight.

That's why Lacus gave him those suits.

I was just really focusing on the way Fllay has used him and the way Lacus is also currently using him. How did it end up as being a generalized statement for "using people"? Please try not to put other words into what I posted.

You're the one who's generalizing by equating Kira's relationship with Flay to Kira's relationship with Lacus.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

You DO know that the final wars in SEED and Destiny wouldn't have been won if Kira wasn't there. We wouldn't have Kira messing things up in Orb VS Minerva, that Angel Down episode, and when Lacus presented him the Strike Freedom.

So you really think Lacus isn't intending Kira to fight for her? What purpose do the Freedom and Strike Freedom have if Kira's not going to use those suits to...do what else...fight for her? Will Lacus give him these suits if she really has no intention of having him fight for her? Really? Why give these suits at all? Isn't it basically saying the same thing?

Yeah, Lacus offered Kira the Strike Freedom with the intention of him using it (the Freedom is a different case, since she only offered it to him after seeing how miserable he was over not being there for his friends); claiming otherwise is silly. But Lacus made it perfectly clear that she wasn't giving it to him expecting him to fight. Yeah she probably hoped he'd help her, and yeah she'd be screwed without him (and she most likely knew that), but she made it perfectly clear that the final decision over whether or not to fight was always in his hands. I highly doubt she'd have pressured him if he'd backed out, regardless of what that might mean for her.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

And why should they kiss ? A kiss is a way to show that you love someone. It's not kiss = love. You don't need a kiss to understand that they are fully in love with each other.

Or it's prolly because Fukuda is trying to emulate Turn A Gundam's romance arc (Kira = Loran, Fllay = Sochie, Lacus = Dianna).

[winter45]

Im going to ignore plot, story, morals, ethics etc

When you give an individual the most powerful weapon/tool to force your/his/her/group/circle (hope you get my point) intentions unto opponents, you are no different then the other side(s)

Your achieving your goals by force and force by nature is violence.

If you dont want to use force then you wouldn't give an individual a weapon/tool to achieve goals by a destructive manner.

So as the series progresses we can easily see that kira does indeed want to use force to reach his goals.

[monster]

Originally Posted by winter45

So as the series progresses we can easily see that kira does indeed want to use force to reach his goals.

Or rather, Kira's accepted that force is sometimes needed if he wants to protect his loved ones.

But really, it's not like any of the SEED/Destiny characters strictly adhere to extreme pacifism. Even Orb's ideals acknowledge the use of force as a means to keep their peace.

[winter45]

Problem i have with kira when using force is for the most part is on an emotional basis. Nothing wrong with that at all. Problem i have is that not thinking thru what would happen if he wishes to exercise is where i get frustrated. Possibly because my way of thinking as being a soldier is on a professional basis, emotional level is where things can bite you on the ass which was shown when AA forced ZAFT to hunt her down due to unwarranted interventions.

I could understand if kira was trying to defend his friends etc But in most instances AA has already provoked multiple factions during Destiny.

Even tho i don't agree with the whole ORB staying neutral policies. (I saw this policy thrown out in destiny and im not going to argue with SEED) I can easily agree that not having a military to defend your nation is unwise.

[monster]

Originally Posted by winter45

Problem i have with kira when using force is for the most part is on an emotional basis. Nothing wrong with that at all. Problem i have is that not thinking thru what would happen if he wishes to exercise is where i get frustrated. Possibly because my way of thinking as being a soldier is on a professional basis, emotional level is where things can bite you on the ass which was shown when AA forced ZAFT to hunt her down due to unwarranted interventions.

I could understand if kira was trying to defend his friends etc But in most instances AA has already provoked multiple factions during Destiny.

I think anybody who attacks someone else can expect retaliation unless they know that someone else is either a pacifist or too weak to fight back. And I think the Archangel crew realize this when they made the decision to interfere.

[winter45]

Your 2nd point of you sentence is debatable from character reactions alone. My last post is in regards...



*Or rather, Kira's accepted that force is sometimes needed if he wants to protect his loved ones*

Which i wanted to make myself clear in regards to destiny that kira is most cases is the offender not defender, which later on he is forced to defend his crew/friends/loved ones AFTER his actions forced/convinced ZAFT in this case to hunt AA down.



Now i may have been confused if you ment *he wants to protect his loved ones* in terms of *interests* which I would understand your last reply clearer.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by winter45

Your 2nd point of you sentence is debatable from character reactions alone. My last post is in regards...



*Or rather, Kira's accepted that force is sometimes needed if he wants to protect his loved ones*

Which i wanted to make myself clear in regards to destiny that kira is most cases is the offender not defender, which later on he is forced to defend his crew/friends AFTER his actions forced/convinced ZAFT in this case to hunt AA down.



Now i may have been confused if you ment *he wants to protect his loved ones* in terms of *interests* which I would understand your last reply clearer.

Are you talking when he attack Minerva?
So you want Kira and Cagali just look and do nothing while entire Orb army get annihilation?

[winter45]

@Gundamx

To your first question: yes

2nd question reply: Probably not the best person to ask if i want to see ORB fleet get annihilated there will be Neg reps, hate mails, hate pms if i answered that truthfully.