Penguin Drum - General Discussion

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Gohan78

I only brought Utena into the fray because the most widespread complaint that I encountered so far in this thread is about the excessive length of Ringo's arc. If you watched Utena, you would know that Ikuhara tends to do long story arcs. For instance in RGU there were 4 story arcs:
Ep. 1-13 Student Council arc
Ep. 14-23 Black Rose arc
Ep. 24-33 Akio Ohtori's arc
Ep. 34-39 End of the World arc

If Ringo's story is concluded in the next episode then the length of Ringo's arc will be about 1/3rd of the series, compatible with Utena's Student Council arc.
What irks me is that people judge the story before it's over. Who knows if Ringo is a central figure in MPD's story or just a secondary character that is going to be discarded after her arc? It's too early to tell.

I'll assume you just pulled those arc's off of wikipedia because you should understand the argument if you'd actually watched the show. The arc's didn't focus on a single character throughout but gave entire episodes devoted to a specific character or a relationship. Usually you'd have a miki, or juri episodes mixed in with Nanami fillers(I like to think of them as Nanami vs Anthy episodes), and some Touga and Nanami or Utena and Touga/Anthy...

That's why some people claim that they'd prefer something similar to that with this episodes as they feel the other main or supposedly main characters have been short changed on character development thus far. That wasn't a problem in Utena as most of the supporting as well as main got real development in the first arc and every arc.

Could that change in the future? I hope so and certainly expect it to but it doesn't really matter. Why should people be allowed to praise the show when they don't know how it will turn out if they aren't allowed to criticize for that exact same reason? What the future holds cause neither you nor I know it. As I can't ask my future self to give my current self an opinion I go with my current feelings/opinions towards how the story is going so far and that is that Ringo has gotten way too much time for my liking.

I don't really like her. I think we could have balanced it out with other characters without just focusing on her. I also think the story hasn't really progressed much because we've been stuck on her craziness for the past 6 or so episodes. We basically don't know much more than episode 3 about the penguindrum or anything else except than Ringo is crazier than we first thought.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The only characters that we know much about are Shouma and Ringo. And I'm sure that Shouma has something hidden as well.

This isn't quite true. We've learned a bit about Kanba for instance. He's keeping secrets from his siblings and apparently has some connections to influential/wealthy people. Also, it should be noted that while Shouma has been constantly freaking out over this whole penguin scenario, Kanba has been much more calm and collected. It almost feels like the story is holding back that this isn't the first time he's been involved with penguin stuff. The symbolism is strong here too: the father had a penguin logo on his jacket, the packet of money has a penguin logo on it, he handed over the "penguin bullet" to the same person who gave him money (suggesting this person would be able to research it), and in the scene of the "shooting", the billboard had a penguin logo. I haven't rewatched yet but I wouldn't doubt the logo pops up around him more than that.

Himari of course we know the least about: she's apparently the cliche anime sick girl and of course is dead without that hat. Said hat also came from same aquarium they had memories of visiting as young children. Unlike Kanba, her indifference to the penguins could be the hat controlling her.

Yuri hasn't had much development but so far her actions seem strange. This could be because of our Ringo oriented perspective, but her interest in an otherwise mundane person and her willingness to give up what appears to be an incredibly successful career to marry him (and the speed of which their relationship has progressed) suggests something suspicious. Of note is her comment to Ringo regarding how Ringo could never hope to compete against her. This suggests she's more astute than she lets on, which in turn suggests she may have ulterior motives for her interest in Tabuki.

My point here is that we do have a lot of stuff that we could discuss and speculate about, because there are a lot of connections we can draw from these episodes, and indeed I tried to make these points before and it didn't go so well. Instead we've had pages upon pages of discussion regarding how much people don't like Ringo. That's not a bad thing, if it wasn't essentially people fighting over how much they "don't understand" each other. This is further compounded with frequent discussion about Ikuhara and his previous works (mainly Utena), which if you aren't a frequent visitor to this thread would almost make you think you clicked the wrong link.

[Gohan78]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I'll assume you just pulled those arc's off of wikipedia because you should understand the argument if you'd actually watched the show.

I checked the episode numbers on Wiki because I don't remember such details but I do own the DVDs. It's one of my favourite anime.

I think it's difficult to compare the two shows on a storyline basis because Utena was more episodic while MPD has a continuous story. Utena's structure lead itself to this kind of character development: one episode = one duel = one characterization. MPD cannot replicate this model.
Utena also had a far larger cast than MPD therefore it couldn't dedicate so many episodes to a single character.

The arc's didn't focus on a single character throughout but gave entire episodes devoted to a specific character or a relationship. Usually you'd have a miki, or juri episodes mixed in with Nanami fillers(I like to think of them as Nanami vs Anthy episodes), and some Touga and Nanami or Utena and Touga/Anthy...

It's not like they spent 100% of the time on Ringo either. We had the Survival Strategy skits, the Takakura's flashbacks, Kanba's shady deals, Masako's machinations, etc. Also I can argue that Ringo's development goes hand in hand with Shouma's.

Why should people be allowed to praise the show when they don't know how it will turn out if they aren't allowed to criticize for that exact same reason?

I only objected to the argument that "Ringo's arc is already too long". I never stated that you can't criticize the show on other aspects.
I know that MPD is not the best show ever but it manages to entertain me every week, so I think the praise is deserved.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

We basically don't know much more than episode 3 about the penguindrum

Given how this series is supposed to have mystery elements, you shouldn't expect to know anything about the Penguindrum until Episode 24.

My advice, if I wanted to be especially rude, would be something like 'shut up and watch', but that would be rude.

[Spoonroo]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Given how this series is supposed to have mystery elements, you shouldn't expect to know anything about the Penguindrum until Episode 24.

That's a good point. Have people here read or seen mysteries much? Mysteries usually don't get solved until the end - Sherlock Holmes certainly never clearly explained the exact answer to the mystery within the first few pages, and often times you were stumped at the last minute as to what's going on, seemingly getting few clues that SEEMED like clues (until the Sherlock reveal at the end), etc

MPD has always seemed like a mystery to me, so I don't see what's the problem with them not spelling out for us. Part of the fun of any mystery is speculation and trying to see if you can figure it out on your own, and how close your answer was to the actual answer. Where's the fun (or the mystery) if they hand that answer to us neatly wrapped up with an entire 2/3 of the series not having aired yet?

[OceanBlue]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Given how this series is supposed to have mystery elements, you shouldn't expect to know anything about the Penguindrum until Episode 24.

Wow, what? Why is everyone arguing in absolutes? You can have a mystery and still introduce clues. You don't have to reveal everything halfway in, but that doesn't mean you can't lead people in some sort of direction. A mystery where you don't know ANYTHING about the perpetrator until the very end sounds ridiculous to me.

[Kaioshin Sama]

And just like that we're back to being all passive aggressive with each other.

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

And just like that we're back to being all passive aggressive with each other.

This, so much.

Everyone should just go sit in the corner and think about what they've done, and come back tomorrow for episode 9 as better people!

Spoiler for Seriously though:

Ya'll need to calm down. People are allowed to enjoy or dislike whatever they choose. Its no biggie.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Given how this series is supposed to have mystery elements, you shouldn't expect to know anything about the Penguindrum until Episode 24.

My advice, if I wanted to be especially rude, would be something like 'shut up and watch', but that would be rude.

Nah man.

That's not how entertainment works. You're supposed to have your interest maintained, something that keeps you watching all the way through. If there is some sort of disconnect, then it's not doing its job.

If an episode didn't work for me, it's not going to be retroactively be made better. There's a difference between having unexplained or unexplored elements be tied together with later events, which in turn makes those episodes more worth watching, and the show just plain not being enjoyable at certain parts.

So no, I will not just shut up and watch. I will question the decisions of the director every step along the way, pointing out the elements that didn't work for me. Does it mean I hate the show? No.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by OceanBlue

You can have a mystery and still introduce clues. You don't have to reveal everything halfway in, but that doesn't mean you can't lead people in some sort of direction.

There are very likely hints as to the true nature of the main plot, but it's, at this point, impossible to separate things that are clues from things that are not.

I think that, rather than constantly complaining about the direction, we should be speculating on what is going to happen instead. That's clearly the intention here.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

That's not how entertainment works. You're supposed to have your interest maintained, something that keeps you watching all the way through. If there is some sort of disconnect, then it's not doing its job.

Yes, in your opinion. I, however, am enjoying myself while waiting for things to make marginally more sense. Patience, you know.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

If an episode didn't work for me, it's not going to be retroactively be made better. There's a difference between having unexplained or unexplored elements be tied together with later events, which in turn makes those episodes more worth watching, and the show just plain not being enjoyable at certain parts.

But how do you know the difference at this point? Are you omniscient? Have you flown to Japan and stolen the script from the production studio, and so therefore know which episodes are important and which are not?

A work, especially an original work, cannot be truly rated on any meaningful level until it is over. I understand that you hate Ringo and how much time the show has spent on her, but who says you'll hate her forever? Maybe your opinion of her will improve. Maybe her heavy focus will have a purpose. You don't know.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I will question the decisions of the director every step along the way, pointing out the elements that didn't work for me. Does it mean I hate the show? No.

That's well and good, but it certainly sounds like you do. What is with this trend of continually emphasizing negative points?

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Nah man.

That's not how entertainment works. You're supposed to have your interest maintained, something that keeps you watching all the way through. If there is some sort of disconnect, then it's not doing its job.

If an episode didn't work for me, it's not going to be retroactively be made better. There's a difference between having unexplained or unexplored elements be tied together with later events, which in turn makes those episodes more worth watching, and the show just plain not being enjoyable at certain parts.

So no, I will not just shut up and watch. I will question the decisions of the director every step along the way, pointing out the elements that didn't work for me. Does it mean I hate the show? No.

It depends through...

Unless the events turned audiences away too much from the shows (and they ended up dropping them). Otherwise just like how fillers work, as long as the overall storyline great, and have a solid ending, that should do the job.

IMO every good series will have a segment that you (or the majority of fans) don't want to rewatch after you already knows how the storyline will play out. They are the discontinue of interests that you mentioned above

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

That's well and good, but it certainly sounds like you do. What is with this trend of continually emphasizing negative points?

If you try to write a review of something, chances are it's easier to write more extensively about the negative parts even if you enjoyed it overall. One reason is that with negatives, you can say "I'd have done this instead", while with the positive aspects it feels silly to point everything out, short of really standout moments.

This is why it'll often look like the biggest fans of a series seem to hate it, but most people who really hate the show won't care enough to rant about it.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

That's well and good, but it certainly sounds like you do. What is with this trend of continually emphasizing negative points?

People can criticize if they want. This is how this basically started:

Me and a couple others- we don't like Ringo and the focus and direction in relation to her and this is our reasoning for it.

The peanut gallery- Ringo's great, she important to the story, you got to love her! You don't know how things will turn out.

Me and a couple others- We don't and neither do you but currently know our own feelings about it and have not really been enjoying the past couple episodes. Our current feelings won't change even if our future feelings do.

Then a couple back and forth with similar talking/no progression.

Kaisos Erranon- Why are you in this thread if all your going to do is criticize?

Well from my point of view I was only defending my right to criticize a certain element. Whether people are being too over defensive about criticism or too over critical is probably only depends on which side you agree with.

Personally, I'm not a sheep that necessarily go along with the most popular or least controversial opinion. If you disagree with me, that's fine. If you want to try to refute some of my arguments, that fine. If you're telling me not to be critical cause you just don't like me being critical, then I couldn't give a shit less about that. I am emphasize what the hell I want to as you can emphasize what you want to. Some people go to forum to read criticism and some to have a circle jerk, to each his own.

Now, I'd love to discuss other elements of the show but if people keep trying to tell me I can't be critical of something, I'm just going to keep coming back and telling to go fuck themselves.

You can be rude to me if you want. I don't care. My opinion of you is low so it certainly won't phase me in the least.

[gumi]

Spoiler for Episode 9:

Himari= New Rose Bride???

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by gumi

Spoiler for Episode 9:

Himari= New Rose Bride???

Something like that yes.

Spoiler:

She seems to be Sanetoshi's fated bride. Also Sanetoshi's words imply Himari and the princess of the crystal are somehow the same person and not two different entities like we thought at first.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Something like that yes.

Spoiler:

She seems to be Sanetoshi's fated bride. Also Sanetoshi's words imply Himari and the princess of the crystal are somehow the same person and not two different entities like we thought at first.

Spoiler:

Certainly makes Himari more interesting.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I don't really like her. I think we could have balanced it out with other characters without just focusing on her. I also think the story hasn't really progressed much because we've been stuck on her craziness for the past 6 or so episodes. We basically don't know much more than episode 3 about the penguindrum or anything else except than Ringo is crazier than we first thought.

It's quite fair to dislike Ringo and her antics, but the the lack of information about the Penguindrum is done on purpose and for a purpose. There's a lot happening that's being withheld from the audience. The claim that we haven't been told about anything else is a complete falsehood.

Originally Posted by Gohan78

I think it's difficult to compare the two shows on a storyline basis because Utena was more episodic while MPD has a continuous story. Utena's structure lead itself to this kind of character development: one episode = one duel = one characterization. MPD cannot replicate this model.
Utena also had a far larger cast than MPD therefore it couldn't dedicate so many episodes to a single character.

It'd be more accurate to say that there's no real reason to compare the two shows other than perhaps to contrast them. I'm actually going through all of the structural and story elements in Utena, and assuming that they won't be showing up in Penguindrum.

Originally Posted by Solace

This isn't quite true. We've learned a bit about Kanba for instance. He's keeping secrets from his siblings and apparently has some connections to influential/wealthy people. Also, it should be noted that while Shouma has been constantly freaking out over this whole penguin scenario, Kanba has been much more calm and collected. It almost feels like the story is holding back that this isn't the first time he's been involved with penguin stuff.

I think it's more fair to say that we've learned a little bit about Kanba - he's far more an enigma than he is a known element. We know how he comes across to people and that he's doing a lot of things in the background, but none of the whys, hows or whats. We also know about how far he will go to protect Himari, but there's a lot more to his character than that.

Originally Posted by Solace

The symbolism is strong here too: the father had a penguin logo on his jacket, the packet of money has a penguin logo on it, he handed over the "penguin bullet" to the same person who gave him money (suggesting this person would be able to research it), and in the scene of the "shooting", the billboard had a penguin logo. I haven't rewatched yet but I wouldn't doubt the logo pops up around him more than that.

There's a lot of penguin imagery everywhere. It's attached to just about all the characters, but some of it is standalone.

Originally Posted by Solace

Himari of course we know the least about: she's apparently the cliche anime sick girl and of course is dead without that hat. Said hat also came from same aquarium they had memories of visiting as young children. Unlike Kanba, her indifference to the penguins could be the hat controlling her.

I'd say that, disregarding Masako for the moment, Tabuki is the character that we know the least about. We know more about him from the OP and the Klimt painting than from Penguindrum's narrative.

You're quite correct in that we don't know much about Yuri and Tabuki because we see them through Ringo's perspective and she doesn't really care about who they are as people. I'm going to guess that Yuri is going to be the more normal of the two, but they definitely have ulterior motives.

The aquarium also has a lot of connections with Ringo and her parents. Not coincidentally, it's at Ikebukuro which is the 25th and last station on the Marunouichi Line.

Originally Posted by Solace

My point here is that we do have a lot of stuff that we could discuss and speculate about, because there are a lot of connections we can draw from these episodes, and indeed I tried to make these points before and it didn't go so well.

I figure that the problem is information overload - there are so many possibilities that almost anything can happen next. It's probably more useful to elminate the most unlikely possibilities at this point. Look at the theme of maternity that was recently brought up: there is so much imagery that can be related to it sprinkled in the earlier episodes that it can be difficult to take in. Moreover, since Ringo's main goal is maternity, what part of it is she focused on? The actual act of sex, emotional attachment, a baby gestating inside her, the act of giving birth, the passing on of her genes, or something completely different?

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

But how do you know the difference at this point? Are you omniscient? Have you flown to Japan and stolen the script from the production studio, and so therefore know which episodes are important and which are not?

Actually, the important episodes are 1, 5, 6, 8, and probably 9 so far. Why they're the important episodes is more open to interpretation.

[Nina.Wolken]

Half-way through ep09, there is something that is really bugging me. That should be impossible...

Spoiler for Episode 09:

If this is the first time Himari meets with "her" penguin, how comes it already is marked as n°3? Sanchan already bears that mark in the elevator, but for Himari she is just "penguin-san", proving this IS the first time they meet... And Kanba only marked them in episode 02 right?

Time traveling penguin?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

Half-way through ep09, there is something that is really bugging me. That should be impossible...

Spoiler for Episode 09:

If this is the first time Himari meets with "her" penguin, how comes it already is marked as n°3? Sanchan already bears that mark in the elevator, but for Himari she is just "penguin-san", proving this IS the first time they meet... And Kanba only marked them in episode 02 right?

Time traveling penguin?

Spoiler:

Well, Good Haro speculated this is just a dream Sanetoshi implanted into Himari rather than something that actually happened. That would explain why the number is there even though it shouldn't.

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

zip for spoil

You're bringing theories which derives from the book. I'm doubt people here appreciate it much.