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Old 2012-02-24, 11:36   Link #7101
Kurosu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingstonbeer View Post
WOW I can actually see that.

Off topic:
1. Do break dancers actually wear the kind of clothes Medaka was sporting.
2. And how in the hell did Ajimu get that shirt/dress on with her hand still stuck to her chest?
1) yes
2) A wizard did it. Anshin'in-san is a wizard.
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Old 2012-02-24, 12:03   Link #7102
DawnEmperor
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I understand Kikaijima's frustration, but at the same time she comes off pretty naive this chapter, ostensibly seeing Medaka and Zenkichi as just another fight. Oh well, we need honest characters.

How is Japan's bboy culture anyway?
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Old 2012-02-24, 12:05   Link #7103
Kurosu
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
I understand Kikaijima's frustration, but at the same time she comes off pretty naive this chapter, ostensibly seeing Medaka and Zenkichi as just another fight. Oh well, we need honest characters.

How is Japan's bboy culture anyway?
The dancing culture is rather strong from what I hear. Though probably Korea more so than Japan.
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Old 2012-02-24, 12:29   Link #7104
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I really dont understand kikajima cause she herself said medaka doesnt understand zenkichi at all but at the same time she wants things go like it was before because it was good for her . Even so she never put herself in zenkichis shoes who always try but fail and get discarded , only can be seen as an intresting subject by the women he loves and thrown away if he lost his walue . Its pretty sad for zenkichi but kikajima wants nothing to change , if medaka understands zenkichi his chances of her loving back is pretty low too .

So what now will medaka come to love zenkichi cause kikajima is sad ? i think kikajima maybe loves zenkichi without knowing and dont want him be together with medaka so she is trying them return as friends which lets her go both way as medakas friend and zenkichis girlfriend , its also funny medakas friendship equalls zenkichis love
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Old 2012-02-24, 16:04   Link #7105
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Originally Posted by kenjtr View Post

So what now will medaka come to love zenkichi cause kikajima is sad ? i think kikajima maybe loves zenkichi without knowing and dont want him be together with medaka so she is trying them return as friends which lets her go both way as medakas friend and zenkichis girlfriend , its also funny medakas friendship equalls zenkichis love
hahahah, you're random fanfics every five posts make me laugh. のヮの
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Old 2012-02-24, 16:13   Link #7106
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kenjtr@ Wait ..what O_O I though that kikajima like Kumagawa and no Zen .
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Old 2012-02-24, 17:51   Link #7107
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Kikajima is blushing almost everytime we see her. It's hard to tell who she really likes, if she likes anyone.
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Old 2012-02-24, 18:26   Link #7108
Sol Falling
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She did tell Kumagawa that his words could make her fall in love with him, but yeah, in general I don't think there's anyone that Kikaijima seriously likes. Kikaijima's fighting for something she herself believes in, and the core of why she's even in the Student Council at all. I think that that is what the recent reappearances of Kikaijima's original serious mode mean.

Kikaijima joined the Student Council for two reasons: 1. Medaka was paying her, and 2. her two "older brothers" told her to go and make friends. The origin of this "blushing Kikaijima" was in that decision to make friends.

"Friendship", as Kikaijima understands it, can be seen in the objective as Medaka presented at the end of the first orienteering game. Kikaijima at that time was highlighted as a sort of "mascot" for that story. The outright frustration/blame Kikaijima addressed to Zenkichi in this chapter arose from how Zenkichi, and then Medaka, proved to be obstacles to that ideal.

The ideal of friendship which Medaka presented was comrades working together towards a goal. One particularly noticeable aspect was the subsumption of competition amongst the participants, despite the event supposedly being a competitive game. The specific moral which emerged from that interaction was that "it does not matter whichever one wins", and that "the journey itself is the prize". This is the issue Mogana has with Zenkichi's conflict with Medaka, which is specifically predicated on the question of "who is right", "who is the main character", "who will win". (As an aside, as the other major recipients of the moral of that activity, it is obvious why the 5 trainee candidates are also on Kikaijima's side.)

There are two simple roots to Kikaijima's position at this point in the story: one, that Zenkichi wants to chase after a different dream/goal than the rest of them; and two, that Medaka is too willing to make enemies/to stand alone. Nothing mysterious or unreasonable about her motivations at all.
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Old 2012-02-24, 20:47   Link #7109
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
She did tell Kumagawa that his words could make her fall in love with him, but yeah, in general I don't think there's anyone that Kikaijima seriously likes. Kikaijima's fighting for something she herself believes in, and the core of why she's even in the Student Council at all. I think that that is what the recent reappearances of Kikaijima's original serious mode mean.

Kikaijima joined the Student Council for two reasons: 1. Medaka was paying her, and 2. her two "older brothers" told her to go and make friends. The origin of this "blushing Kikaijima" was in that decision to make friends.

"Friendship", as Kikaijima understands it, can be seen in the objective as Medaka presented at the end of the first orienteering game. Kikaijima at that time was highlighted as a sort of "mascot" for that story. The outright frustration/blame Kikaijima addressed to Zenkichi in this chapter arose from how Zenkichi, and then Medaka, proved to be obstacles to that ideal.

The ideal of friendship which Medaka presented was comrades working together towards a goal. One particularly noticeable aspect was the subsumption of competition amongst the participants, despite the event supposedly being a competitive game. The specific moral which emerged from that interaction was that "it does not matter whichever one wins", and that "the journey itself is the prize". This is the issue Mogana has with Zenkichi's conflict with Medaka, which is specifically predicated on the question of "who is right", "who is the main character", "who will win". (As an aside, as the other major recipients of the moral of that activity, it is obvious why the 5 trainee candidates are also on Kikaijima's side.)

There are two simple roots to Kikaijima's position at this point in the story: one, that Zenkichi wants to chase after a different dream/goal than the rest of them; and two, that Medaka is too willing to make enemies/to stand alone. Nothing mysterious or unreasonable about her motivations at all.
Basically she wants to keep the status quo, Zen realised he wasn't happy with the Status quo and neither was Medaka. Which makes it a bit weird. Surely they have a right to change the status quo if they want to especially if there's no malicious activities going. Change in itself is not a bad thing.
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Old 2012-02-24, 20:55   Link #7110
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Anyway kikajima is no different then medaka and zenkichi in that aspect she is being selfish too , she doesnt want what will make everyone happy she is just trying to protect her usuall life style she used to . At this point zenkichi will try to be with medaka i am ok with either results even if he wins her heart or not things wont be same anymore . I dont want zenkichi running araund medaka for all the series he can win her heart or he can loose and get lost from her life there is no third option for zenkichi now if he wanted to be friends with medaka he would have apoligised after she beat her but he didnt .

Its pretty sad for a guy being araund the women he loves and getting ignored all the time even if zenkichi dont get medakas heart he can move on with his life , its like his time stopped when he started to love medaka . I am not blaming medaka in that aspect she doesnt need to love medaka but then she needs to let him go for his own good .
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Old 2012-02-24, 21:27   Link #7111
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Basically she wants to keep the status quo, Zen realised he wasn't happy with the Status quo and neither was Medaka. Which makes it a bit weird. Surely they have a right to change the status quo if they want to especially if there's no malicious activities going. Change in itself is not a bad thing.
It's not about a "status quo". It's about an ideal, which Kikaijima has just as much a right to pursue as Zenkichi or Medaka have to pursue their individual interests. The ideal which Kikaijima's opposition to Zen and Medaka is based on, namely "friendship" or "teamwork", is one in which the members of a team or organization subordinate their individual interests for the sake of a greater victory. Namely, comrades work together with each other towards a common goal, so the issue of who "wins" becomes unimportant, as they share in a common victory.

Talking about a "status quo" doesn't make sense because we didn't even really have this ideal before the Treasure Hunt orientation arc, or more accurately Medaka's need to create successors to the Student Council for the sake of a future-proof counterplan against Ajimu. Actually, prior to that arc where Akune, Zenkichi, and even Kikaijima started developing their own independence, you couldn't really call the Student Council a true team, anyway. Up till now, the Student Council has essentially been an organization based around the ideals of Medaka, with Akune and Zenkichi in particular only tagging along because they were following Medaka, to the point that it was actually outsiders to the organization who most understood/supported Medaka's purposes independently (Hinokage, Naze, or Koga throughout the Minus arc, specifically). So when we talk about Kikaijima's desire for the Student Council to be about "friendship" or comraderie, this is actually a new ideal or development.

What you guys should think about is how this "friendship"/"teamwork" idea actually stands in direct contrast to Ajimu's concept of the "main character". In Ajimu's conception, there is some special person who wins, and being that person is desirable. Under the "teamwork" idea, multiple people (potentially everybody, even) win/wins, and it doesn't even matter who does so specifically. The conflict that Zenkichi has brought into the Student Council now is about him becoming the Main Character, and Medaka is humouring/encouraging his challenges for whatever reasons which are of interest to her. I don't see how any actually logical argument could be made that Kikaijima is "wrong" for wanting the organization to be unified and stay focused on its actual purpose, which is helping people. She is arguably the most correct out of all of them, although it is undeniable that Zenkichi and probably Medaka still do have individual issues they need to work through eventually.
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Old 2012-02-24, 22:12   Link #7112
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
It's not about a "status quo". It's about an ideal, which Kikaijima has just as much a right to pursue as Zenkichi or Medaka have to pursue their individual interests. The ideal which Kikaijima's opposition to Zen and Medaka is based on, namely "friendship" or "teamwork", is one in which the members of a team or organization subordinate their individual interests for the sake of a greater victory. Namely, comrades work together with each other towards a common goal, so the issue of who "wins" becomes unimportant, as they share in a common victory.

Talking about a "status quo" doesn't make sense because we didn't even really have this ideal before the Treasure Hunt orientation arc, or more accurately Medaka's need to create successors to the Student Council for the sake of a future-proof counterplan against Ajimu. Actually, prior to that arc where Akune, Zenkichi, and even Kikaijima started developing their own independence, you couldn't really call the Student Council a true team, anyway. Up till now, the Student Council has essentially been an organization based around the ideals of Medaka, with Akune and Zenkichi in particular only tagging along because they were following Medaka, to the point that it was actually outsiders to the organization who most understood/supported Medaka's purposes independently (Hinokage, Naze, or Koga throughout the Minus arc, specifically). So when we talk about Kikaijima's desire for the Student Council to be about "friendship" or comraderie, this is actually a new ideal or development.

What you guys should think about is how this "friendship"/"teamwork" idea actually stands in direct contrast to Ajimu's concept of the "main character". In Ajimu's conception, there is some special person who wins, and being that person is desirable. Under the "teamwork" idea, multiple people (potentially everybody, even) win/wins, and it doesn't even matter who does so specifically. The conflict that Zenkichi has brought into the Student Council now is about him becoming the Main Character, and Medaka is humouring/encouraging his challenges for whatever reasons which are of interest to her. I don't see how any actually logical argument could be made that Kikaijima is "wrong" for wanting the organization to be unified and stay focused on its actual purpose, which is helping people. She is arguably the most correct out of all of them, although it is undeniable that Zenkichi and probably Medaka still do have individual issues they need to work through eventually.
I do not see the need for the load of text. The successors actually said they wanted things to remain as they with the student council, they wanted those happy days to continue, which no matter how you sugar coat it is the status quo. They don't want things to be different they want things to remain as they were within the student council. Zen and Medaka don't want this and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Old 2012-02-24, 22:35   Link #7113
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If they wanted everyone to share in the victory, maybe they should have stopped medaka from basically kicking zen in the back in chapter 117?116? and tried to make peace then instead of waiting till now. Instead, they were like 'oh, it's ok. It's only Medaka and Zen again. They have this weird special relationship where one particular side loses out often'. That's not teamwork, that's just tyranny of the masses. It's also why people say Zen has sacrificed himself for Medaka. Who has benefited more from everything in the last 100+ chapters? What has Medaka gained and what has Zen gained? I look down on Kikaijima's idea of friendship cause it's shallow and basically you're just asking one side to suck up everything for the sake of maintaining your precious peace.

Plus Kikaijima's taking kumagawa in the group. Seriously, does she not know what type of person he is? Does she think he really really believes in the concept of 'friendship'? EPIC FAIL
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Old 2012-02-24, 22:47   Link #7114
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In the end everyone has their own goal which makes them happy but since their goals crossed someone will be unhappy thats inevitable and in this situation i cant see a happy ending for anyone .
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Old 2012-02-25, 03:25   Link #7115
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
I understand Kikaijima's frustration, but at the same time she comes off pretty naive this chapter, ostensibly seeing Medaka and Zenkichi as just another fight. Oh well, we need honest characters.

How is Japan's bboy culture anyway?
Zen kinda tricked her into going along with his plan. I loled.
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Old 2012-02-25, 03:30   Link #7116
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I did not see the flashing coming nor the break-dancing Medaka, I though she was just trying stuff on as usual or Someone forced her to cover up. But the plan B jump up on the stage and start break-dancing is LOL. Imagine it, a horrible performance its all akward and then someone just comes on the stage and starts going wild. LOL.
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Old 2012-02-25, 07:05   Link #7117
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I do not see the need for the load of text. The successors actually said they wanted things to remain as they with the student council, they wanted those happy days to continue, which no matter how you sugar coat it is the status quo. They don't want things to be different they want things to remain as they were within the student council. Zen and Medaka don't want this and there's nothing wrong with that.
Yes, the successors said that, and they had been in the story for how long exactly? The "happy days" which they were talking about had been established for mere hours before they fell apart with the introduction of the conflict between Medaka and Zenkichi. Saying that Kikaijima wants to protect the "status quo" is inaccurate to the point of meaninglessness and does nothing to describe her actual motivations.

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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
If they wanted everyone to share in the victory, maybe they should have stopped medaka from basically kicking zen in the back in chapter 117?116? and tried to make peace then instead of waiting till now. Instead, they were like 'oh, it's ok. It's only Medaka and Zen again. They have this weird special relationship where one particular side loses out often'. That's not teamwork, that's just tyranny of the masses. It's also why people say Zen has sacrificed himself for Medaka. Who has benefited more from everything in the last 100+ chapters? What has Medaka gained and what has Zen gained? I look down on Kikaijima's idea of friendship cause it's shallow and basically you're just asking one side to suck up everything for the sake of maintaining your precious peace.
If you would remember, Kikaijima did try to stop the fight between Medaka and Zenkichi from the very beginning, and was opposed to it from the start. The Naked Apron alliance was created basically immediately in the aftermath of Zen and Medaka's battle.

As for your question of "what did Medaka gain and what did Zen gain" over the past 100 chapters though, do enlighten me as to what you could possibly be thinking. The ideal of "friendship" as Kikaijima or Medaka presented it is not about peace, it's about unity for the sake of a greater goal--because that greater goal is more important than their individual gain, or circumstances. Wasn't part of the core of Ajimu's arguments towards Zen that Medaka never needed any of that "loyalty" or "protection" Zenkichi was primarily giving her? Hardly ever in the past have I seen Zenkichi focused on the actual goal of "helping everybody", or "making everybody happy" as part of the greater mission of the Student Council. The idea that Medaka "gained" more from their past relationship than Zenkichi did is simply laughable. A real picture of the situation would be that Medaka misunderstood Zenkichi, and Zenkichi misunderstood Medaka, so that in the end neither of them really gained anything from the other.

Quote:
Plus Kikaijima's taking kumagawa in the group. Seriously, does she not know what type of person he is? Does she think he really really believes in the concept of 'friendship'? EPIC FAIL
If Kumagawa is the sort of person who can never become the main character, then isn't it actually extremely fitting that he chose to support the group which is against the concept of a main character in the first place? As demonstrated during the Treasure Hunt orientation, a team-based environment is actually one of the only contexts in which Kumagawa can take part in a greater victory, and such a set-up in fact makes him extremely happy. There is no reason at all currently to doubt Kumagawa's sincerity towards the greater goals of the Naked Apron Alliance. Your villainization of him makes no sense--by this point Kumagawa is clearly meant to be seen as a sympathetic character.

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-02-25 at 07:17.
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Old 2012-02-25, 11:52   Link #7118
evil|plushie
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If by stopping the fight you mean waiting till Medaka had beaten the crap out of Zen before saying "hey, let's all be friends" then yes -_- Wow, how wonderful of her. I can see how 'friendship' and 'equality' mean so much to her.

And WTF is the greater goal? The keeping of the status quo? Is there a demon lord about to wake up and rampage all over the world that needs everyone to unite against it? Alien invasion? The flask plan? Let's not forget Zen has his own plan to stop it, same as Medaka. Just cause they don't agree with you doesn't mean you force them to go along with you.

And I'll put it this way, in 100+ chapters, Medaka went from being an ostracised existence because she was so perfect to one that had other friends than Zenkichi. Zenkichi made more friends as well but put it this way, Zenkichi would have made friends REGARDLESS because he's the type who gets along with people. So who gained more in this instance. This has nothing to do with whether they understood one another or not but whose life was more enriched by knowing the other.

This has nothing to do with Kumagawa being the sort of person who can never become main character but more of a 'you can not trust Kumagawa to believe in friendship'. You've obviously forgotten the type of person Kumagawa is, the fact you think he's a sympathetic character is just your own person POV. Let's not forget this is the person who at the age of 6?? tried to blackmail people and drive them to despair. There is nothing to show that he has become less of a troll.
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Old 2012-02-25, 12:08   Link #7119
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I do not see the need for the load of text. The successors actually said they wanted things to remain as they with the student council, they wanted those happy days to continue, which no matter how you sugar coat it is the status quo. They don't want things to be different they want things to remain as they were within the student council. Zen and Medaka don't want this and there's nothing wrong with that.
That's a trademark of this thread. I think they are having a competition to see who can write the longest.
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Old 2012-02-25, 14:40   Link #7120
Sol Falling
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If by stopping the fight you mean waiting till Medaka had beaten the crap out of Zen before saying "hey, let's all be friends" then yes -_- Wow, how wonderful of her. I can see how 'friendship' and 'equality' mean so much to her.
Akune explicitly pointed out that Medaka and Zenkichi were so serious about the fight that it would have been impossible to get in between them.

Quote:
And WTF is the greater goal? The keeping of the status quo? Is there a demon lord about to wake up and rampage all over the world that needs everyone to unite against it? Alien invasion? The flask plan? Let's not forget Zen has his own plan to stop it, same as Medaka. Just cause they don't agree with you doesn't mean you force them to go along with you.
This simply reveals what you've been missing about this manga. The greater goal is obviously the Student Council's purpose of helping people pursue their dreams--you know, the reason Medaka set up her Medaka Box? Helping other people is the reason that the current Student Council exists. Yes, it would be perfectly reasonable for Kikaijima to say that that is more important than competing with each other over some internal conflict.

Quote:
And I'll put it this way, in 100+ chapters, Medaka went from being an ostracised existence because she was so perfect to one that had other friends than Zenkichi. Zenkichi made more friends as well but put it this way, Zenkichi would have made friends REGARDLESS because he's the type who gets along with people. So who gained more in this instance. This has nothing to do with whether they understood one another or not but whose life was more enriched by knowing the other.
Medaka made friends with people like Akune, Miyakonojou and Kumagawa despite Zenkichi, not because of him. Zenkichi has nothing to do with Medaka's current friends--most of them started out as enemies, the exact people Zenkichi was trying to keep away from her. All Zenkichi has actually contributed to Medaka's life was her initial goal/mission old to help other people at two years old. However, that in itself is no different from how Medaka enabled Zenkichi to live for 13 years without changing his original optimistic, idealistic personality.

Could Zenkichi have lived a happy life without Medaka? Sure, possibly. He probably wouldn't have been able to meet someone like Kumagawa and declare "Life is a Plus" so confidently, but certainly, he could've achieved a normal level of happiness. In the same way, though, you cannot exactly say that the two year old Medaka before she met Zenkichi was "unhappy". If Medaka never learned to care about other people's emotions in the first place, why would she even care if she was ostracised for eternity?

Quote:
This has nothing to do with Kumagawa being the sort of person who can never become main character but more of a 'you can not trust Kumagawa to believe in friendship'. You've obviously forgotten the type of person Kumagawa is, the fact you think he's a sympathetic character is just your own person POV. Let's not forget this is the person who at the age of 6?? tried to blackmail people and drive them to despair. There is nothing to show that he has become less of a troll.
The "type of person Kumagawa is" is someone who protects the weak. This is an inherent part of his character which was the specific reason he managed to inspire such loyalty from the Minuses. Kumagawa will never become less of a troll, but he has become a completely good and sympathetic character. Ever since Medaka convinced him that it was possible for Minuses to win, Kumagawa has stopped using his trolling to hurt other people and instead used it to try to win--both for his own sake, and also for the "weak" people whom Kumagawa is moved by empathy into protecting. This is what was revealed through Kumagawa's actions in the Treasure Hunt arc, and also the key behind Kumagawa's current participation in the Naked Apron Alliance.

If you can't identify or understand the positive aspects of Kumagawa's personality, then this simply shows that you have completely missed his character development.
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