Mahouka - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by kagato3

So because it doesn't fit your idea you are just going to ignore that they both have the same curriculum(All the learning which is planned and guided by the school, whether it is carried on in groups or individually, inside or outside the school), tests ,ect. And the only difference is course 1 have an instructor that is able to give 1 on 1 supplementary lessons on the subjects (ie almost the definition of what a tutor is)

Please read what I said. I am suggesting that there might be better analogy with respect to magic training by the teachers if we are to believe that the magic high school system in this series is the optimal solution in the anime world. If the instructor supplementary lesson is similar to the real world's tutoring, then the magic high school system in this anime world is very far from optimal, and not likely a system that a nation under threat would choose in training their greatest assets. There must be something more than tutoring happening if for whatever the reason, instructor resources must be concentrated to only the course 1 students. If I made any mistake, it is that I skipped the part about connecting the tutoring reality to the optimal school education system, because I didn't want to repeat all that again. Pointing out the what may not translate from our real world to the anime world does not mean ignoring anything.

Let's think about the anime situation and the key element of the series, that there exist course 2 students because instructor resource can only be used for course 1 students. How much difference does instructor's tutoring ( since you insist on that word ) makes on students' learning? In what fields of learning does instructor's tutoring makes the most difference? My problem is that no matter how you answer this, you can't avoid striking any contradiction. I was trying not to ignore these contradictions, which lead to you accusing me of ignoring that the supplementary lesson course 1 students receive can be called as tutoring. Let's examine all the cases so I won't be ignoring them.

1. Tutoring makes big difference in student learning -> problem : If so, how in the world can 2nd year course 2 student become replacement for 2nd year course 1 student? The difference will grow bigger longer the student is in the school. If course 2 students can't be replacement for course 1 students by 2nd year, shouldn't they be considered as something else and not follow the same curriculum since they now have no chance of becoming course 1 student unless they drop to 1st year?

2. Tutoring makes small difference in many students' learning -> problem : then why concentrate it so much in course 1 student? Why not spread the tutoring resource around a bit to see if they can find any student, course 1 or course 2, that might respond exceptionally to that tutoring. Why so much fuss about something little?

3. Tutoring is for all the disciplines in the school -> problem : many of the studies are more like book studies. Theory is more of book study with some practice. To use real world analogy, do you have to be expert swimmer to understand fluid dynamics? Why can't course 2 students be given instructors who can explain what's written in the book and show some demo videos? Is there some reason why course 2 students should not see any demonstrations of anything from an instructor?

4. Tutoring is for some disciplines in the school -> This was what I originally thought the situation was, thus I imagined that tutoring would be concentrated in practice part, the real magic use part, instead of book learning type theories, and tinkering with CAD. There is no way one person can do all the magic the other person does in exactly same way, thus CAD tuning will have to rely on some standard procedures and much theories. I imagined CAD tuning to be something similar to what aviation technicians be doing to an airplane. Obviously Aviation technicians are seldom trained as pilots. Since all of you are saying this is not the case, envisioning course 1 as someone who will be in the frontline of things while course 2 as someone who supports them like mechanics and control tower operators must be wrong way to think about the whole thing. Moreover, if this is the case, then what the series is saying is that course 2 students are inferior even in areas that is not a focus area of the teacher's supplementary instructions. Wait, is this what this series is trying to say, that course 2 students in general are inferior people who can't match course 1 students in any possible way?

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by Guest2

Only the most talented are chosen as 9SC engineers and the episode explained they were lacking even talented course 1 magic engineers, and it was even mentioned one the ones they picked had more theory knowledge then engineering knowledge. Only 2 out of 100 year 2 course 1 students were specifically mentioned as being good at engineering. In regards to being chosen, I mentioned engineering experience is a factor. Mari and Azusa found out about Tatsuya because of their close interactions with him and his sister. There could have been other course 2 students or even First Year course 1 students that have such knowledge and experience. But there was no focus put on them this time around.

We have no indication yet of a knowledge gap or how big the actual points divide is between the 2 courses. The main separation is a social one of pride between those at the very top and those at the very bottom and relates to one's magic power. Which can be nurtured and honed, but some are stated to start off with alot more innate magic talent than others and some alot more magic theory knowledge than others.

The main focus of my curiosity was that since the series kind of emphasized superiority of course 1 students in magic use, why more of the course 2 students wouldn't focus their study on something that will require less magic use. The magic engineering, as somewhat explained by the main character, seems to be one of the path accessible to course 2, so I imagined that many course 2 students would try to be someone good at CAD tuning. If there were more students that may have been pursuing Engineering path, I wonder why the Seitokai didn't organize an open tryout for CAD tuning engineer. Could it be that they were saying all that to "bait" Tatsuya into the Engineering team?

[Ultragunner]

^ of course, all your points are valid, but that's from the perspective of course 2 students, ATM we don't know how they choose the engineers, perhaps they shortlist the top ranking students and then have a closer look at their skills (not necessarily a test)? If so, then there maybe some course 2 students made the list byt ultimately fell out in the final roster (you see how some Course 1 students are just plain annoying pricks ). On the other hand, tuning CAD isn't easy, you could also imagine that the engineer has to be somewhat capable in casting magic in order to undetstand the "feel" or "touch" needed in such delicate job, and usually only the majority of the top students a.k.a Course 1 can do that. Over time, this has become somewhat an "unspoken rule" that the engineers also need to be from Course 1.

Last but not least, certainly there are course 2 students that wants to study deeper into magic theories, but there ARE other that want a career in practical fields, like Leo who is aiming to be part of the Mobile Corps, these kinds of things do require magic practiacal skills, but not in the way the school tests them

Come on, how many of you actually do calculus intergration when you go to the workforce?

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by Ultragunner

Come on, how many of you actually do calculus intergration when you go to the workforce?

Me raises hand.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by wontaek

The main focus of my curiosity was that since the series kind of emphasized superiority of course 1 students in magic use, why more of the course 2 students wouldn't focus their study on something that will require less magic use.

They do, even some of the course 1 students do, but the focus this time around is upon introducing the main characters. We saw Mizuki and Leo also state their job goals. Erika is already a talented Kenjustu specialist and was Mari's examiner at her family's Dojo.

The emphasis on the superiority of the course 1 students was supposed to be shown as a social one related to youthful pride in one's talent and stubborn ignorance. The school heads only care about using their limited resources to get the best and smartest of them trained as soon as possible and the majority of Japan's general public in this novel lump the tiny magician minority all together and would't know or appreciate the difference. Unless they got into a fight with different magicians.

Originally Posted by wontaek

The magic engineering, as somewhat explained by the main character, seems to be one of the path accessible to course 2, so I imagined that many course 2 students would try to be someone good at CAD tuning. If there were more students that may have been pursuing Engineering path, I wonder why the Seitokai didn't organize an open tryout for CAD tuning engineer. Could it be that they were saying all that to "bait" Tatsuya into the Engineering team?

Your idea of a tryout is a good one, and Mayumi did admit to having a blind spot when Azusa suggested Tatsuya.

But remember even Course 1 students are shown in the episode to have trouble with Magic Engineering. Both course 1 and course 2 are all still students and while there are definitely students from both courses aiming for engineering, as well as many other magic theory or less magic orientated jobs, magic engineering specifically requires advanced magic theory, computer programming and magic equipment knowledge. The majority of students from both courses are still learning these things as high school students. You have to be really exceptional to be chosen for competition.

9SC requires choosing the 8 best from those who already have superior knowledge and ample experience with these things, and club heads, the student council and the teachers are supposed to be on look out for such talent for possible nomination. It seems First years are normally overlooked due to their expected lack of magic education and unlikely chance of having prior experience. Specifically more so for a First Year low scoring Course 2 student, who no one would have expected to be among the best out of all the other students.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by wontaek

Please read what I said. I am suggesting that there might be better analogy with respect to magic training by the teachers if we are to believe that the magic high school system in this series is the optimal solution in the anime world. If the instructor supplementary lesson is similar to the real world's tutoring, then the magic high school system in this anime world is very far from optimal, and not likely a system that a nation under threat would choose in training their greatest assets. There must be something more than tutoring happening if for whatever the reason, instructor resources must be concentrated to only the course 1 students. If I made any mistake, it is that I skipped the part about connecting the tutoring reality to the optimal school education system, because I didn't want to repeat all that again. Pointing out the what may not translate from our real world to the anime world does not mean ignoring anything.

Let's think about the anime situation and the key element of the series, that there exist course 2 students because instructor resource can only be used for course 1 students. How much difference does instructor's tutoring ( since you insist on that word ) makes on students' learning? In what fields of learning does instructor's tutoring makes the most difference? My problem is that no matter how you answer this, you can't avoid striking any contradiction. I was trying not to ignore these contradictions, which lead to you accusing me of ignoring that the supplementary lesson course 1 students receive can be called as tutoring. Let's examine all the cases so I won't be ignoring them.

1. Tutoring makes big difference in student learning -> problem : If so, how in the world can 2nd year course 2 student become replacement for 2nd year course 1 student? The difference will grow bigger longer the student is in the school. If course 2 students can't be replacement for course 1 students by 2nd year, shouldn't they be considered as something else and not follow the same curriculum since they now have no chance of becoming course 1 student unless they drop to 1st year?

2. Tutoring makes small difference in many students' learning -> problem : then why concentrate it so much in course 1 student? Why not spread the tutoring resource around a bit to see if they can find any student, course 1 or course 2, that might respond exceptionally to that tutoring. Why so much fuss about something little?

3. Tutoring is for all the disciplines in the school -> problem : many of the studies are more like book studies. Theory is more of book study with some practice. To use real world analogy, do you have to be expert swimmer to understand fluid dynamics? Why can't course 2 students be given instructors who can explain what's written in the book and show some demo videos? Is there some reason why course 2 students should not see any demonstrations of anything from an instructor?

4. Tutoring is for some disciplines in the school -> This was what I originally thought the situation was, thus I imagined that tutoring would be concentrated in practice part, the real magic use part, instead of book learning type theories, and tinkering with CAD. There is no way one person can do all the magic the other person does in exactly same way, thus CAD tuning will have to rely on some standard procedures and much theories. I imagined CAD tuning to be something similar to what aviation technicians be doing to an airplane. Obviously Aviation technicians are seldom trained as pilots. Since all of you are saying this is not the case, envisioning course 1 as someone who will be in the frontline of things while course 2 as someone who supports them like mechanics and control tower operators must be wrong way to think about the whole thing. Moreover, if this is the case, then what the series is saying is that course 2 students are inferior even in areas that is not a focus area of the teacher's supplementary instructions. Wait, is this what this series is trying to say, that course 2 students in general are inferior people who can't match course 1 students in any possible way?

1. course 2 students would tend toward average grades while course 1 students will tend toward Honors level marks hence Tatsuya's comment at the end of ep 1 about at the school you are either and Honor student or an irregular. they aren't setting any group up to fail a pure course 2 student should be able to pass the entry exams for the Magic University. Tatsuya himself, who has been shown to be poor at the Practical Magic skills (which are the only classes that there are instructors for), is at a level that he should be able to get into the University.

2. you are disregarding the shear numbers of students that are already in course 1 each instructor has to give 1 on 1 instruction to 25 students the fact that they wouldn't need to give deep levels of instruction to a portion of these students would need to be a given otherwise the Instructor would be swamped.

3. the only instructors course 1 have that course 2 do not are the Practical Magic instructors.(per ep 4 and 5) For those you need someone that is well versed in Practical Magic.

4. Again it was never stated that course 2 students couldn't be on the Tech team but that no first year student had been which makes sense since it is only about 2 to 3 months into the school year so they wouldn't have a very large experience base with there classes just starting. Being a course 2 student just compounds the issue since the entrance exams do test tech knowledge as well and higher tech knowledge normally equates to better Practical skills since the knowledge can be applied to help those skills be better.

Course 2 students are in general less talented than course 1 students but it is more along the lines of saying a starting minor league pitcher is less talented then a major league pitcher some with hard work they may be able to surpass course 1 students but others will just hit walls that are the limits of their abilities just as some course 1 students may hit those same walls. If this makes them inferior depends on your point of view.

[SinsI]

There's also this:

Spoiler for LN comments about magic being taught prior to high school:

Magic is not taught in public schools until middle school. For children with the aptitude of a magician, public cram schools after school are the foundations of their magic knowledge. This step is not to look for technical skill, but to determine for both themselves and their parents whether they have enough raw talent to make it as a magician.

While some private schools incorporate forms of magical education as extra curricular activities, it is stressed that they are by no means a reflection of magic performance.

Magic begins as a full-fledged education from the high school curriculum onward. Although among the magic high schools, the First high school is considered the most difficult to enter, there are many students who come from ordinary middle schools. There are classes on specialized magic courses that some of the students have never seen before.

So their freshmen have, usually, only 3 years of poor magic education (given the shortage of magic instructors) in middle school.

[millie10468]

Originally Posted by SinsI

There's also this:

Spoiler for LN comments about magic being taught prior to high school:

So their freshmen have, usually, only 3 years of poor magic education (given the shortage of magic instructors) in middle school.

Some freshmen, especially the Course 1 students, don't come in completely ignorant. Depending on their family and magical capabilities, they should have had some kind of informal training at home. This adds to their air of superiority especially when faced with the relative ignorance of some of the Course 2 students who have either had less training or don't have enough power to be polished by training. Of course, this "lack of power" is not bad at all considering being admitted to First High in the first place means you have enough magic to be proud of. It's just that, compared to the Course 1 students, they lack something.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by kagato3

3. the only instructors course 1 have that course 2 do not are the Practical Magic instructors.(per ep 4 and 5) For those you need someone that is well versed in Practical Magic.

Does this mean that course 2 students have instructors that are not practical magic instructors? Wonder why that was never shown in anime. Also, about how much of the instruction is in practical magic? If practical magic class occupies less than 1/3 of all the classes, then difference between course 1 and course 2 may be much less than the impression the anime has given so far. If the difference is much less, then it again makes me wonder about why it was necessary to differentiate course 1 and 2 so much and make them wear something that will easily visibly distinguish them from afar, but I think we talked about all these in the past.

-----------------

On the side note, if you think 25 is hard, try 1500 students in Mechanics course for Sophomores in many large universities in USA. I , as one of the TA, had to proctor the tests in an auditorium that could seat 6000.

[Ickarium]

I can say this as it was said in the first arc in the source material.

-No one has normal instructors-. The basic premise in Mahouka is self-learning is a 'thing', kind of like science fiction. Only young kids get normal teachers. By the time you're a teenager, you're expected to learn on your own. Presumably certain really complex stuff (like magic does) gets teachers, but normal schooling ... no.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by wontaek

Does this mean that course 2 students have instructors that are not practical magic instructors? Wonder why that was never shown in anime. Also, about how much of the instruction is in practical magic? If practical magic class occupies less than 1/3 of all the classes, then difference between course 1 and course 2 may be much less than the impression the anime has given so far. If the difference is much less, then it again makes me wonder about why it was necessary to differentiate course 1 and 2 so much and make them wear something that will easily visibly distinguish them from afar, but I think we talked about all these in the past.

-----------------

On the side note, if you think 25 is hard, try 1500 students in Mechanics course for Sophomores in many large universities in USA. I , as one of the TA, had to proctor the tests in an auditorium that could seat 6000.

The biggest problem is the anime doesn't have time to really delve into how the educational system works and the story artificially inflates the gap between the 2 courses at first but slowly shows that it isn't nearly as large as we are lead to believe until we are shown through Mayumi's speech that the curriculum is the same for both classes.

Spoiler for Addition info from the ln:

Lecture type classes are all taught through interactive media (implied to be a much more advanced form of on line courses) and questions that would normally be asked to teachers are answered by the class counselors for both course students. Even a course 2 student in first High is considered to have the best high school education in the nation.

As for your side note Mechanics isn't a class that requires a lot of 1 on 1 student teacher interaction nor are a lot of engineering courses from my experience. Practical magic does require a lot of 1 on 1 student teacher interaction with 25 students a teacher could only offer an average of 2.4 minutes of time with a student per hour that's not exactly a lot of time.

[rladls2121]

Crime syndicate No Head Dragon.
It is assumed to interfere the Nine School Competition.
There goes another peaceful festival.

What is with Tatsuya?
Requested by some military officials to test the rifle-looking weapon?
I was lost at this point.

If Course 1 students thinks that using keyboard for manual adjust for someone's CADS is old age, then what is new?
Before that, there are choices for magic engineers whichever is convient for them.

I have a feeling Nine School Competition is going the best arc.
And more than upcoming arcs of course.

[Ultragunner]

^ To be honest, it's been a while (at least for me) to see a wide scale competition. No, not just some tournament like soccer (Captain Tsubasa), basketball (Slam Dunk)...etc....but a multi-events sport-like competitions, like the Olympics

if you enjoy such sport events, then you'd probably enjoy this arc (of course, it also depends on how well Madhouse manages to do ).

[velvet nightmare]

Originally Posted by rladls2121

What is with Tatsuya?
Requested by some military officials to test the rifle-looking weapon?
I was lost at this point.

it's a modification/upgrade of the rifle he used in the first few minutes of episode 1 to 'nuke' a bunch of ships in the conflict he participated in when he was younger. the person he was speaking to is his superior who is also a comrade of mibu's father.

and that' essentially the connection you should have picked up so far in the series, it's not as straight forward as it should be because tatsuya's military history is given to us in bits and pieces and he wants to keep it secret as well.

[pampz21]

Originally Posted by rladls2121

What is with Tatsuya?
Requested by some military officials to test the rifle-looking weapon?
I was lost at this point.

Ah bro it would be a spoiler so ill give you a hint base on what you watch;
Tatsuya=Military personnel + CAD engineer.

It was supposed to be said in the conversation with Azusa as to why Tatsuya had Silver Horn Custom(Trident); Tatsuya had answer that he's a tester.

[Nvis]

So Tatsuya will only have a supporting role in this Tournament?

[HandofFate]

Originally Posted by Nvis

So Tatsuya will only have a supporting role in this Tournament?

Such spoiler bait lol.
The arc barely even started yet. Just keep watching.

[chaos_animagic]

to summarize course 1 vs course 2...

Magic > IQ

there you go... it doesn't matter how smart you are, if you don't have magic, you suck.

That's how all the "magic" schools in this anime's world work.


And as some others said, it's Basically similar to BakaTest

Course 1 = class A (all technology, best teachers)
Course 2 = class F (a wooden desk with no chair, lowest wage teacher)

all with the exception that course 2 have 0% chance to advance up a level like BakaTest do.

[HandofFate]

Originally Posted by chaos_animagic

to summarize course 1 vs course 2...

Magic > IQ

there you go... it doesn't matter how smart you are, if you don't have magic, you suck.

That's how all the "magic" schools in this anime's world work.


And as some others said, it's Basically similar to BakaTest

Course 1 = class A (all technology, best teachers)
Course 2 = class F (a wooden desk with no chair, lowest wage teacher)

all with the exception that course 2 have 0% chance to advance up a level like BakaTest do.

More like
Course 1 = (All technology, teachers)
Course 2 = (All technology, no teachers)
..

[rladls2121]

I have been quiet about this, but is it really all right to talk about Course 1 having teachers and Course 2 is self studying? I thought it was done with, at least from episode 4 to 5, I think.

I don't know, but this kind of topic is still at large even after Enrollment arc.