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View Poll Results: Steins;Gate 0 - Episode 12 Rating
Perfect 10 1 10.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 0 0%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 4 40.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 30.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 20.00%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2018-06-28, 14:46   Link #21
Dengar
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Well yeah but most people are rather accepting of so-called "Bootstrap Paradoxes" because they are consistent. They don't really create stuff out of nothing, or suffer from having the same object follow the same loop while somehow being immune to aging.
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Old 2018-06-28, 18:20   Link #22
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
They don't really create stuff out of nothing.
Depends. The same logic used to have some information that ends up not having an origin can be used for something physical that ends up not having an origin.

For instance Rintaro could have received a metal oopa from Kagari, he then could have given it to Mayuri who would later gift it to Kagari who would then go back in time and give it to Rintaro.

It's exactly the same thing. If you think it works with information it can work for a physical object too.
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Old 2018-06-28, 18:33   Link #23
4th Dimension
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Originally Posted by frodonk View Post
also, what was in that song on the radio that triggered kagari to walk around and almost get run over by a truck? Was it something that the bad guys (for a lack of a better term) used on her while she was in captivity?
It sounded like classical music, so I'm betting it's Mozart or something because my theory so far is that she was part of an attempt to either recreate Kiritsu or do something with Amadeus with her.

Allthough I wonder what whoever kept her meant to do with her, unless they somehow knew she was a time traveler back then the knowledge of it was rare...

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Nah he didn't create that song. He actually did learn it from a mysterious girl. Remember, Okarin "Prime" grew up in the beta timeline.
I'm not sure what you are getting at. Aren't we in Beta? And didn't supposedly meet her in the same? So that memory shouldn't have been overridden/not kept by Reading Steiner
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Old 2018-06-28, 18:38   Link #24
GDB
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Nah he didn't create that song. He actually did learn it from a mysterious girl. Remember, Okarin "Prime" grew up in the beta timeline.


Unlike most people, I actually loved this episode. It was great. Feels all around. I love this.
This IS the beta timeline though.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Depends. The same logic used to have some information that ends up not having an origin can be used for something physical that ends up not having an origin.

For instance Rintaro could have received a metal oopa from Kagari, he then could have given it to Mayuri who would later gift it to Kagari who would then go back in time and give it to Rintaro.

It's exactly the same thing. If you think it works with information it can work for a physical object too.
The general way a Bootstrap Paradox works, from my understanding based on how Doctor Who used it, is that the thing in question came into existence under normal circumstances, but those circumstances changed due to time travel. The origin then becomes lost due to time loops, which just reinforce each other and makes the closed loop.
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Old 2018-06-29, 05:13   Link #25
Dengar
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
This IS the beta timeline though.
Yes? That's my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
The general way a Bootstrap Paradox works, from my understanding based on how Doctor Who used it, is that the thing in question came into existence under normal circumstances, but those circumstances changed due to time travel. The origin then becomes lost due to time loops, which just reinforce each other and makes the closed loop.
Nah, a bootstrap paradox has no beginning. It's always been this way. If it actually had a beginning, then causality would be much more contradictory.

A bootstrap paradox is a paradox, since there is still the problem of the lack of an origin. However, the loop is internally consistent. Physical objects becoming themselves is a lot more heinous than simple information being passed from one person to the next in a closed loop. Because information isn't subject to aging. And the song is supposed to be so very earworm-y that one can't help but remember it very accurately.
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Old 2018-06-29, 07:06   Link #26
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
The general way a Bootstrap Paradox works, from my understanding based on how Doctor Who used it, is that the thing in question came into existence under normal circumstances, but those circumstances changed due to time travel. The origin then becomes lost due to time loops, which just reinforce each other and makes the closed loop.
Yeah and that's basically how I tried to explain how the song came into existence in my previous post, however that can't be applied to every of such cases.

For instance in Terminator 2 it turns out that skynet would have never come into existence if a terminator wasn't sent back in time thus providing the technology to create Skynet in the first place. So... where did that technology originated from?

If we suppose that there was an original timeline where they created skynet without having a sample of future technology, then the whole theory that by destroying that sample Skynet would never exist falls apart.

Granted everything that terminator2 established was then destroyed fixed in terminator3, but that's not what was originally intended in terminator2.
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Old 2018-06-29, 08:38   Link #27
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I really don't understand people's obsession with "original timelines". It creates more problems than it solves.
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Old 2018-06-29, 09:42   Link #28
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I really don't understand people's obsession with "original timelines". It creates more problems than it solves.
I wouldn't say that. John Titor (the real person that claimed to come from the future) had a very consistent theory of time travel that involves an original timeline and going back in time only causes a new universe to appear following the many world interpretation. His theory is the only one that solves every paradox, but it has never been shown in any story that I know of because it's simply not interesting. You can't change the past of your own universe according to that theory.
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Old 2018-06-29, 11:17   Link #29
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I don't think John Titor ever made mention of any kind of "original timeline". Anyway, thanks for bringing up John Titor, since his mere existence creates a huge plot hole if you're to believe in an "original timeline".
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Old 2018-06-29, 11:22   Link #30
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I don't think John Titor ever made mention of any kind of "original timeline". Anyway, thanks for bringing up John Titor, since his mere existence creates a huge plot hole if you're to believe in an "original timeline".
He's talking about the real life John Titor.

And that theory has been used (before John Titor even showed up, I think), in one of the most popular manga of all time in fact: Dragon Ball. Trunks created a new timeline every time he traveled to the past and could never change his own future/present.
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Old 2018-06-29, 11:33   Link #31
Dengar
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Yes but time travel in Dragon Ball works differently from S;G. Dragon Ball actually allows for there to be an "original timeline" without messing up causality because there is a clear order of events with time properly veering into a different direction from the moment the first time traveler arrived. And as a result of this, Dragonball never has any time loops. Certain orders of events kind of spiral and go backwards in time, but there is a clear beginning as well as a clear end.
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Old 2018-06-29, 12:35   Link #32
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Yes but time travel in Dragon Ball works differently from S;G. Dragon Ball actually allows for there to be an "original timeline" without messing up causality because there is a clear order of events with time properly veering into a different direction from the moment the first time traveler arrived. And as a result of this, Dragonball never has any time loops. Certain orders of events kind of spiral and go backwards in time, but there is a clear beginning as well as a clear end.
I know that. Again, we're talking about real life Titor's theory, which doesn't apply to Steins;gate, but was brought up to refute your claim that time travel with an original timeline creates more problems than it solves.
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Old 2018-06-29, 17:31   Link #33
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Yes? That's my point.



Nah, a bootstrap paradox has no beginning. It's always been this way. If it actually had a beginning, then causality would be much more contradictory.

A bootstrap paradox is a paradox, since there is still the problem of the lack of an origin. However, the loop is internally consistent. Physical objects becoming themselves is a lot more heinous than simple information being passed from one person to the next in a closed loop. Because information isn't subject to aging. And the song is supposed to be so very earworm-y that one can't help but remember it very accurately.
Information is technically subject to entropy though.
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Old 2018-06-30, 05:36   Link #34
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Not as a rule. It most certainly can be though, I will give you that.

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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I know that. Again, we're talking about real life Titor's theory, which doesn't apply to Steins;gate, but was brought up to refute your claim that time travel with an original timeline creates more problems than it solves.
My argument was that a stable time loop with an original timeline creates more problems than it solves.
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Old 2018-06-30, 07:11   Link #35
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Trunks created a new timeline every time he traveled to the past and could never change his own future/present.
Oh you are right, I had forgotten that one. I guess that worked there because it's not really a story based on time travel.
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Old 2018-06-30, 08:51   Link #36
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Information is technically subject to entropy though.
A material potential state perhaps, but not for a virtual condition.
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Old 2018-06-30, 08:59   Link #37
GDB
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My argument was that a stable time loop with an original timeline creates more problems than it solves.
That's just your opinion, though. For many people, the concept of an existence without an origin breaks immersion to the point that it can ruin the story.
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Old 2018-06-30, 13:03   Link #38
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Originally Posted by HtwoN View Post
Yeah, this is kind of a filler episode. I don't care about Kagari that much.
Well I don't blame you. Not that I dislike Kagari myself, but despite the episode centering around her it doesn't do a whole lot for her characterwise. Yes we get some bits on her background, but it's not whole lot we didn't know. She every much an enigma, and her characterization isn't expand being very withdrawn.

Still wasn't a terrible episode, but it probably would been off having been done earlier on when things weren't ramping up.
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Old 2018-07-02, 23:08   Link #39
dniv
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A material potential state perhaps, but not for a virtual condition.
Lol I was just trolling. Thanks for the correction though.

@GDB I mean... there are cyclic theories of the universe with no start point so like... I don't exactly think that's fair.
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Old 2018-07-03, 05:02   Link #40
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@GDB I mean... there are cyclic theories of the universe with no start point so like... I don't exactly think that's fair.
You don't think it's fair to say no origin can break some people's immersion? But it's fair to say an origin always creates more problems than something just existing without an origin?

Sorry, but that's hogwash. You can't say it's unfair to call an opinion an opinion because there are theories very tangentially related.
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