Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[creb]

There were women fighting in episode 1. I think it far more likely they have vats, etc, than they have a society where women are just breeding stock.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Eratas123

Besides, is it even likely that the transmission will reach the Alliance?

Depend on what kind of technology they use. It seems that Chamber and Ledo expect an answer in spite of the fact that "only" a few months have passed. This implies that they have a faster than light system of communication.
This goes on a total sci-fi speculation field and therefore it is totally impossible to tell whether it is realistic or not.

Originally Posted by Eratas123

And if it does, would they expend all that time and energy to save one mook?

Depends on how much costly it is for them to travel through space. To be honest I can't think of many things that would be more costly than space travel in terms of energy, but there are several sci-fi stories which introduced purely fictional systems of space travel that make it viable at low costs.

Chamber seems to think that they will retrieve Ledo so I think that logically the rescue operation shouldn't be more costly than what they normally spend in terms of both time and energy to raise and train a pilot like him.

[Eratas123]

It might not be costing them that much, but remember how Ledo got there: He got sucked into a wormhole and tossed somewhere that not even Chamber has any data on. Even if they did want to rescue Ledo, the chances of them replicating his stunt and then flying back are really low. The only other option they have is going to the Sol system the old fashioned way, which also seems way too big of a risk for just one guy.

[Jan-Poo]

Old fashioned way? Anything less than faster than light travel would take years and most likely thousands of years if not more.

It is not logic to assume that they cannot use their "telemothy swing" wherever they please provided they have the necessary coordinates, else Ledo would have already given up any hope of returning.

[Eratas123]

Yeah, but Ledo and Chamber aren't the best sources, are they? Chamber's an AI and so he can't voice his opinion. Meanwhile, Ledo's been brainwashed to believe that the Alliance will rescue him because his mind can't comprehend the alternative; that he's stuck. Hell, when Bevel asked him questions on what happens after the war he says "Standby for new orders". Ledo's doing just that "Standing by for rescue" because he has no idea what else to do.

[Jan-Poo]

I don't think "brainwashing" is the correct term. "Conditioning" is more apt. I know I'm nitpicking but there are important differences.

Ledo doesn't seem to be lacking rationality and he didn't lose his humanity nor his ability to make independent judgements.

He's being conditioned in a way to look at things in a precise way, but he's not brainwashed and therefore he should be able to tell what's impossible and what isn't.


PS: You have another proof of that with Kugel, Chamber's commander. Ledo comments that he is going against military regulations. A brainwashed person wouldn't do that. Therefore the alliance doesn't brainwashes its soldiers.

[Eratas123]

Sorry, you're right Condition, not brainwashed. Anyway, even if he can make individual judgements, there's a high likelihood that he can't comprehend the alternative; he's not worth the trouble. Again, his conversation with Bevel shows that when he doesn't have an answer he defaults to "Standby for orders". When Bevel questions him on what he'd do if the orders never came, he clams up and doesn't answer.

He's been conditioned to believe that he'll be extracted because he thinks that, as a young soldier, he still has a lot of uses and can kill a lot more before he dies. Anyway, are soldiers like him even worth the trouble of rescuing? He's not a commander or a person of high ranking power - He's cannon fodder.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by Eratas123

He's been conditioned to believe that he'll be extracted because he thinks that, as a young soldier, he still has a lot of uses and can kill a lot more before he dies. Anyway, are soldiers like him even worth the trouble of rescuing? He's not a commander or a person of high ranking power - He's cannon fodder.

There was that moment in the first episode where his commander performed the rear-guard operation, in violation of standing regulations, so that the younger Ledo could "stay alive to kill more bugs snails." That suggests, on top of the giant bomb being sacrificed to save the fleet, that ordinarily the Alliance will favor sacrificing the small to save the large.

Still, the commander defying orders suggests that it isn't entirely hidebound up at the top.

[Jan-Poo]

Which is why in the end it's only a matter of costs.

I don't know how much "cannon fodder" fits in his case.
The reason in the real world there are teams specifically trained to retrieve fighter pilots isn't simply because we value life and we take care about our soldiers, there are actually costs associated with their trainings. It is actually more economically advantageous to retrieve them rather than replace them, at least... in most cases.

Now we don't know how much costly it is for the alliance to raise and train machine caliber pilots. You need to consider both costs in terms of time and energy.
Then you need to consider the costs in terms of time and energy for them to go to earth, which again we don't know because we have no idea how the telemothy swing works or even how far they are from earth.

It might be entirely possible that to them going to earth is as much as bothersome and costly as it us to travel from home to the nearest drugstore.

[Eratas123]

Given that earth was "lost" to them, I can't imagine its convenient for them to go there for a rescue op. Considering how valuable it is, its kinda hard to imagine them not moving there en masse if it wasn't inconvenient for them.

[Jan-Poo]

Apparently to them Earth was just an useless block of ice. And perhaps they also lost its coordinates through the years.

According to Ledo the alliance would likely move en masse there as soon as they learn that it is inhabitable.


There might be other more complex reasons. I think that there is something amiss regarding Earth and its fate.

[LostSome]

A signal usually only give your location... Unless Chamber is broadcasting "We found Earth and humans can live on it !".

Now you have to think that Ledo was probably put DOA six months ago and getting a signal from him again could look suspicious for his superiors.

[jeroz]

Btw, the character designer also worked for another anime series in the past
Ever heard of Kamichu?

[Repelsteeltju]

Originally Posted by Eratas123

Again, his conversation with Bevel shows that when he doesn't have an answer he defaults to "Standby for orders". When Bevel questions him on what he'd do if the orders never came, he clams up and doesn't answer.

Well Ledo said he'd 'remain on standby' should that happen. To which Bevel responds: 'that's what the people of the Gargantia are doing', though he rephrases it as 'living on'. Disregarding that being 'on standby' would more likely than not mean some form of suspended animation or cryosleep for soldiers of the Alliance like Ledo.

[Eratas123]

I don't think so. Assuming the alliance isn't being monstrous by choice rather than necessity, they'll probably lighten up considerably once the hideauze are dead and there's nothing threatening to chew off their butts.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

Considering what Ledo describe about the Alliance's extreme pragmatism, I'd say that cloning being a standard is very possible.

Only if cloning is at all practical. It might not be, no matter how advanced the technology.

Originally Posted by Dextro

I actually think that it takes more after the book than the movie. The book, unlike the movie, is anything but lighthearted and makes a not so subtle point about the type of society it believes is better for humanity. One where the right to be a citizen must be earned through blood and where punishment for any crime is brutal and swift.

I remember reading it wasn't so much about "better" as "necessary under certain circumstances".

Originally Posted by Eratas123

Chamber would likely follow protocol and inform the Alliance of their location regardless of what Ledo tells him. But the question is would he force Ledo to come back if Ledo chooses to stay.

Besides, is it even likely that the transmission will reach the Alliance? And if it does, would they expend all that time and energy to save one mook? Conquering Earth may sound great in theory, but it has no landmass and the fleets aren't nearly enough to support the people the Alliance has - They'd be fighting a war on two fronts: Fighting against the earth citizens and expending resources to colonize the planet while the Hideauze tear at their backsides. They might write off Ledo as being an acceptable loss.

The discovery of an habitable planet would be pretty major. The lack of landmass is a lot easier to solve than the lack of breathable atmosphere and gravity you find in space, and they managed that easily enough. As for the Earthers... They're not a significant threat, even in the unlikely case they'd be unwilling to negotiate.

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

Best episode so far, this kinda of thing I want to see more of here. In fact I wouldn't mind if rest of series was just Ledo and Chamber conversing with Gargantia crew because this show is at it's best when there is interplay between characters rather than battles.

As for foreshadowing of Ledo reuniting with Galactic Alliance, I think it's very likely that there is no way he'll be able to reintegrate in that society again by the end of series. The Culture Shock he's going through is huge and despite not being Gargantia crew very long Ledo is already starting question his old life. It will be very interesting to see what Chamber might do when Ledo betrays Avalon.

Barring some dark revelation about the Hideauze not actually being a threat, I hope that doesn't happen. Ledo risked his life to fight save fellow soldiers, and his CO sacrificed himself because he believed there were more dead enemies in Ledo's future than in his. All that to defend humanity. And Ledo would throw it all away, desert his comrades to... what? Live in comfort among scantily clad women?

I can see the temptation, and I'm no hero myself. If I had to face a space monster, what I'd do would have more in common with pissing my pants than with any kind of heroics. But I expect better of actual heroes like Ledo.

[MeisterBabylon]

You must remember, after that mission, Ledo was to be honorably discharged and to reproduce in accordance of Darwinism. Maybe he's a bit different from a normal soldier given that circumstance.

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I also don't see the Hideauze as the 'enemy', but rather the top of the food chain, and raw energy was their sustainance. They were probably eating the neo-human's batteries and reactors, which consequently meant the contents dying along with it. They most probably just grazed on stars and planets to create more biomass and colonized the galaxy as such, where they encountered an expanding force called Humanity.

To us, we are flesh and bone riding a reactor of unfathomable power encased in suits of eldritch technology.

To them, we're flying little stars with a coating of planet.

So, like a cow will not negotiate with a farmer, and a farmer just harvests the cow for the meat, the aliens feast on this new morsel and search for more. No one is evil, just the order of Nature, in a way. It could explain why the aliens all massed on that power magnet which Ledo saw during his retreat despite its reactor going nova, it just looked reeeaaal tasty.

The neohumans saw them as in their way of expanding through the stars, because no fleet is going to be able to jump properly when zerged, can they? And then when the Hideauze acquired a taste for reactor, little wonder then that Avalon may well be facing extinction. Avalon may have taken the logical route to reconfigure its entire societal structure, throwing precious biomass at an ever expanding foe just to find a way forward, or even just to survive.

This series can end 2 ways:

1) a glorious last stand over Earth with 1 machine against a friggin hive, only to have the neohuman fleet warp in and deal a surgical strike against the Queen, or...

2) to have Ledo settle in completely to his new life, while the ending scenes show Avalon completely wiped out, and the entire Hive coming for Sol and its little 2rd planet. Cliffhanger.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

You must remember, after that mission, Ledo was to be honorably discharged and to reproduce in accordance of Darwinism. Maybe he's a bit different from a normal soldier given that circumstance.

A few weeks of leave isn't a discharge.

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I also don't see the Hideauze as the 'enemy', but rather the top of the food chain, and raw energy was their sustainance.

Though I agree on the circumstances, I don't think it matters how they see us. They're the enemy because they kill people and threaten the very existence of human civilization.

[Bern-san]

For now I'm really liking the anime and this has to be my favorite episode so far. I wonder why the adults don't try to talk to Ledo about information about the Galactic Alliance or even think of the possibilities if more mechas like Chamber appear and decide to stay in the Earth or something. I mean I find it weird that only Amy and her brother are the ones who show most interest in him and his environment.

The clone theory is interesting although for now I think that person was his little brother. I don't know what's more tragic, our point of view about him knowing how unfair life in the Galactic Alliance is or the fact that since Ledo grew up like that he didn't realize until now that he doesn't have concepts like family or do something without expecting benefits for you.

[Forever]

I still think that boy was his brother. Discarded for being useless.

Anyway this story can only end in disaster.

1) GA finds the planet, eliminate the inhabitants as it is more efficient than to negotiate with someone so much less superior.

2) Hediaze follows GA here or somehow finds the planet. Also GG.

BY some miracle, a twist might happen.

Hediaze finds the planet, but does not attack. Then Ledo discovers they are a defensive species, defending themselves from humans who want to plunder them...