Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[00-Raiser]

@ Signum and Zest: Just because he wanted to be killed doesn't make it okay. Again, look at Kevorkian. Even if Zest did attack her, Signum didn't need to resort to lethal force. She could have just knocked him out, or ran away. She didn't NEED to kill him, she WANTED to kill him. That honourable death thing is just an excuse to make it not seem as bad. It was her choice to kill, which makes it worse than the Hucks who need to kill.

@ The Hucks not being sorry: .... Well, what do you want them to say? "Gee, sorry for being alive." "Man, do I regret not dying."

Their attitudes are very natural and believable. As I've explained before, people adapt their mindsets to the situations they're in. They were against killing at first but they eventually accepted that that's just what they had to do. No point in them angsting about something they can't change.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Okay, but have they actually seen one died in front of their eyes?

Lily did in her flashbacks.

Originally Posted by dahak

Bollocks. People commit suicide over far less than having to kill others to survive [1]. No civilised state on earth would treat killing someone so that one of thier organs to be transplanted into you as less than murder. We know Touma agrees, his response was to the situation was to attempt suicide, we know Reinforce believed that a life based on the murder of innocents isn't worth living, she asked to be executed.

I suppose I should specificy that if one actually wants to live, the survival instinct is very powerful.

And yeah, Thoma wanted to seclude himself and let the virus consume him... at first. Who's to say that after awhile alone he wouldn't decide that he wants to live after all and give into the desire to kill?

Originally Posted by dahak

Note that is what the Huckbeins are doing. They are declaring that each of them is singly more valuable than all of their victims. That their life is more valuable than multple other people's combined.

Okay, I should have clarified more. I have a problem when a 3rd party thinks they can decide what other 2 parties deserve to live or not. A person considering their own life to be more important to them, well, that goes without saying.

Originally Posted by dahak

And a number of people who have some inkling of basic morality objecting to that. It doesn't help that the Huckebein have shown no wish to stop murdering people or any attempt to ameliorate their behaviour.

They have a strict set of rules for when it's okay to kill. "Anyone who looks at you funny is fair game" was not one of them.

[mechdra]

Guys, this arguement about killing people is going no where . From what I had observed so far, there are two ships here. One for pro survival (Hucks) and the other is pro life (anti Hucks). I do understand the arguement presented by the pro life group. We all do understand that murder or killing other people is wrong in many ways and most law, religion and philosophy disallow it.

For Signum and Zest, Zestis dead to begin with. As a warrior, he would like to die in honour and in the hand of a knight and lady. This is the way of a knight. You could say that the fight between them is an honour duel practice by many cultures.

To those who believe in pro survical, if killing is really their way of survival, why would they only prey on human. We all knowthat there are tons of monster in Nanohaverse and some of thse monsters are very powerful. The Wolkies used to hunt them and you could see that they had a hard time fighting them. However, the Hucks did no such thing. They just kill all humies and loot thier stuff.

Maybe we could say this is like a clash of culture. The Hucks is like Vikings back in those days and TSAB is like the rest of Europe. Fellow people, our discussion is going no where and I felt that each of us have our own opinion. We just need to keep it low and accept one and anothers view. Tsuzuki and the Japanese will definately laugh looking at our discussion. It is amazing how a simple tale of a boy meets girls turn into a heated debate of right and wrong hahaha.

[Akiyoshi]

At this point i think you're making things up to make the Huckebein look good xDU.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

@ Signum and Zest: Just because he wanted to be killed doesn't make it okay. Again, look at Kevorkian. Even if Zest did attack her, Signum didn't need to resort to lethal force. She could have just knocked him out, or ran away. She didn't NEED to kill him, she WANTED to kill him. That honourable death thing is just an excuse to make it not seem as bad. It was her choice to kill, which makes it worse than the Hucks who need to kill.

Really? Ok let's start. Yeah, Signum resorted to kill Zest following his plea, no one said it's ok, it's a Knight thing. If Signum is near the end with no remaining purpouse in her life(for example, if she somohow survives Hayate's death) she will probably ask the same to someone else if the find the correct person to do it. Like i've said, the knight live by their honour code, something as important to them as the "survival instinct" you're mentioning. Which i find it amazing because they're able to overcome the thing some people on this thread called "the most powerfull emotion" and decide really what to do with their lives.

The Huckebein aren't victim of an "unstoppable impulse" of surviving because of the simple fact that said impulse can be indeed stopped by strong-enough convictions and principles. Zest manage to stop it, i'm pretty sure Tohma will manage to do it again, Reinforce also managed to do it. The Hucks look like selfish cowards at their side.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

@ The Hucks not being sorry: .... Well, what do you want them to say? "Gee, sorry for being alive." "Man, do I regret not dying."

What about "thanks for giving your life to allow me live another day i really apreciate it", they can treat the lifes they're taking with a bit more respect(at least the innocent ones).

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Their attitudes are very natural and believable. As I've explained before, people adapt their mindsets to the situations they're in. They were against killing at first but they eventually accepted that that's just what they had to do. No point in them angsting about something they can't change.

But the thing is that they can indeed change it! Fortis said they have the means to do it and the TSAB are also on their way. About they "being against killing at first" it will be cleared once Tsuzuki decides to give us their backstories. I agree on some of theim having sad stories, tough(another thing that has become trademark of the franchise).

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

And yeah, Thoma wanted to seclude himself and let the virus consume him... at first. Who's to say that after awhile alone he wouldn't decide that he wants to live after all and give into the desire to kill?

Dunno, maybe he was tempted again by the virus but again this is a Nanoha series, i'm pretty sure Tohma will be fine at the end xD

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

@ Signum and Zest: Just because he wanted to be killed doesn't make it okay. Again, look at Kevorkian. Even if Zest did attack her, Signum didn't need to resort to lethal force. She could have just knocked him out, or ran away. She didn't NEED to kill him, she WANTED to kill him. That honourable death thing is just an excuse to make it not seem as bad. It was her choice to kill, which makes it worse than the Hucks who need to kill.

Whether it's wrong or not to assist someone with suicide is up for debate, however we can be sure it's nowhere near as wrong as what the Hucks do. She wanted to kill him because he asked her to, and she did so because they are both knights.

@ The Hucks not being sorry: .... Well, what do you want them to say? "Gee, sorry for being alive." "Man, do I regret not dying."

Their attitudes are very natural and believable. As I've explained before, people adapt their mindsets to the situations they're in. They were against killing at first but they eventually accepted that that's just what they had to do. No point in them angsting about something they can't change.

Maybe something like "Sorry I had to kill you"

Seriously, if you need to see how decent people who do bad things out of necessity behave, look at the Wolkenritter. They don't go around calling themselves 'the poison of society' for one thing, or brazenly show off how powerful and untouchable they think are. They actually try to limit their activities. Can't say I've seen that from the Hucks.

They have a strict set of rules for when it's okay to kill. "Anyone who looks at you funny is fair game" was not one of them.

Those dead nuns say hello.

[Rising Dragon]

All these arguments make it really fuckin' hard to enjoy anything around here anymore.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

All these arguments make it really fuckin' hard to enjoy anything around here anymore.

Why do you think I gave up?

[mechdra]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

All these arguments make it really fuckin' hard to enjoy anything around here anymore.

I fully agree.

In 5 days time, the new chapter will come out. We will see what happen.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by mechdra

Guys, this arguement about killing people is going no where . From what I had observed so far, there are two ships here. One for pro survival (Hucks) and the other is pro life (anti Hucks).

Life and survival are the same things

Originally Posted by mechdra

To those who believe in pro survical, if killing is really their way of survival, why would they only prey on human. We all knowthat there are tons of monster in Nanohaverse and some of thse monsters are very powerful. The Wolkies used to hunt them and you could see that they had a hard time fighting them. However, the Hucks did no such thing. They just kill all humies and loot thier stuff.

We don't know if killing animals is an option. If it was you'd think Fortis would have mentioned it when trying to recruit Thoma. "Don't worry, you only have to kill animals" or something. Since it's a psychological urge that needs sating, it could be that animals aren't good enough for it.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

no one said it's ok

Uh, yeah, you're all saying it's okay. Signum took a life when she didn't have to, something you claim the Huckebein do. Yet it's okay when Signum does it?

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

The Hucks look like selfish cowards at their side.

People who kill themselves are the real cowards. They just give up on their lives without trying to fight for them. Despite everything stacked against them the Hucks still fight on and protect what's important to them even if they have to become 'evil'. That takes strength.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

But the thing is that they can indeed change it! Fortis said they have the means to do it

Fortis said they have the means to prevent the kill urge from robbing them of their rationality. They still need to kill so they won't turn into piles of flesh, but they can control who they kill.

[Justin_Brett]

@ Signum and Zest: Just because he wanted to be killed doesn't make it okay. Again, look at Kevorkian. Even if Zest did attack her, Signum didn't need to resort to lethal force. She could have just knocked him out, or ran away. She didn't NEED to kill him, she WANTED to kill him. That honourable death thing is just an excuse to make it not seem as bad. It was her choice to kill, which makes it worse than the Hucks who need to kill.

Wasn't Zest gonna die anyway? In a slow, painful way?

I mean what would you have preferred she done, just left him there coughing up blood as his inner organs gradually gave out? That would be pretty unnecessary too. So which is it? The one that supports your argument?

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Uh, yeah, you're all saying it's okay. Signum took a life when she didn't have to, something you claim the Huckebein do. Yet it's okay when Signum does it?

Signum took a life because the person she killed asked her to. That is the difference between her and the Hucks.

People who kill themselves are the real cowards. They just give up on their lives without trying to fight for them. Despite everything stacked against them the Hucks still fight on and protect what's important to them even if they have to become 'evil'. That takes strength.

Nope, Hucks are selfish cowards. If they were decent people, they'd turn themselves in where they won't hurt anybody and wait for a cure. It takes more guts to put your life in someone else's hands for the sake of others than to just give up and go off killing people

Fortis said they have the means to prevent the kill urge from robbing them of their rationality. They still need to kill so they won't turn into piles of flesh, but they can control who they kill.

Doesn't make them seem any better, as those dead nuns can attest to.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Signum took a life because the person she killed asked her to. That is the difference between her and the Hucks.

What about all the people she killed in the past?

Nope, Hucks are selfish cowards. If they were decent people, they'd turn themselves in where they won't hurt anybody and wait for a cure. It takes more guts to put your life in someone else's hands for the sake of others than to just give up and go off killing people

Yes, because the Bureau would *so* go out of its way to make sure that a cure was found for the Hucks before they turned into lumps of flesh.

Before you say anything...

Remember this...

Chrono, back in A's, was quite WILLING to fire the Arc En Ciel towards the Earth to stop the Book of Darkness. He didn't consider teleporting the core into space until Nanoha, Hayate and Fate pointed out that it was possible.

Also, if the Hucks were decent people?

What about the Wolkenritter?

Back in A's, if they were decent people, they would have contacted the Bureau and hope that the Bureau had a cure for Hayate.

But, they didn't.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

What about all the people she killed in the past?

She was compelled to obey the master of the book.

Yes, because the Bureau would *so* go out of its way to make sure that a cure was found for the Hucks before they turned into lumps of flesh.

Yes, the Bureau would go out of it's way to help. That's what they do. Shamal's team was already working on a cure as it is.

Also, if the Hucks were decent people?

What about the Wolkenritter?

Back in A's, if they were decent people, they would have contacted the Bureau and hope that the Bureau had a cure for Hayate.

But, they didn't.

You do have a point, though it must be said that they were thinking more about Hayate's life than their own, and as far as they knew, what they were doing was the best way.

Still doesn't change the fact that the Wolkenritter went out of their way not to kill or permanently hurt anyone, something the Hucks sure aren't doing.

[mechdra]

TSAB = Tau Empire (always for the greater good)

Signum vs. Zest = honour duel (European knights, samurai, boxer and etc)

Wolkenritter = Samurai (I will do everything for my master's sake)

Hucks = Outlaw (I, me and myself mentality)

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Endscape

She was compelled to obey the master of the book.

Doesn't change the fact that at those times, she felt nothing for those she cut down. Signum didn't allow herself to feel until Hayate became the Master.

[Zero Hurricane]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

People who kill themselves are the real cowards. They just give up on their lives without trying to fight for them. Despite everything stacked against them the Hucks still fight on and protect what's important to them even if they have to become 'evil'. That takes strength.

People who commit suicide is a coward, for me it doesn't matter. But people who do not want to admit his mistake and is proud to be the evil he does is more than just a coward. They fight to protect what is most important, no problem. But they are protecting is their own egocentrism. They fight just follow their conscience each other, and who knows, one of them will betray each other. For me, the Huckebein more than a big screwed up family.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Fortis said they have the means to prevent the kill urge from robbing them of their rationality. They still need to kill so they won't turn into piles of flesh, but they can control who they kill.

Too late. They are not rational anymore. They are already out of control, just like a raging elephant.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Chrono, back in A's, was quite WILLING to fire the Arc En Ciel towards the Earth to stop the Book of Darkness. He didn't consider teleporting the core into space until Nanoha, Hayate and Fate pointed out that it was possible.

Don't forget when Chrono and Lindy were perfectly willing to let Fate get herself killed so they could capture the Jewel Seeds later.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Don't forget when Chrono and Lindy were perfectly willing to let Fate get herself killed so they could capture the Jewel Seeds later.

Why not? It's good tactics to let your enemy weaken herself first before moving in take both objectives with little resistance.

[Akiyoshi]

I don't fully agree with Chrono and Lindy's train of tought, neither do Yuuno or Nanoha at the time(and the Wolks during the finale of A's with the Arc-en-Ciel). But i'm trying to be on their shows assuming they are on a high-stakes situation trying to pònderate the best and quickest solution. Tactical-wise, both Harlowns where logically correct on their plans but the ethics involved made those a difficult descicion, still i think Chrono being the professional he is, is mentally cold enough to go with the plan if no other solution is available on sight and take full responsibility of his actions after. Fortunately, he counted with the help of people who know better than him, managing to reach a happy ending both times.

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Also, if the Hucks were decent people?

What about the Wolkenritter?

Back in A's, if they were decent people, they would have contacted the Bureau and hope that the Bureau had a cure for Hayate.

But, they didn't.

Again conveniently forgetting things. Signum and all of the Wolkenritter are perfectly concsious of their crimes even if they can't remember all of them they acknowledge the fact that they do wrong in the past, and even if they were controlled by the book are decent enough to take full responsibility for their actions(to the point of freeing Hayate of any charges against her if possible).

They think they have the mean to save Hayate permanently(the allmighty book that contain unveliebable power, it's not hard to assume that said great power have high-chances of cure their beloved master) and their only wish is saving her life, they don't wish anything else for themselves and, once said task is finished they are willing to surrender themselves to the TSAB which they do(they never where "captured" during A's, they voluntarily go to the authorities after the Book of Darkness incident is over). Their master is safe and, at least this time, all bloodshed was avoided, the task was somehow accomplished so they feel satisfied and ready to accept their punishement which consist on ....pretty much the same as Fate and Arf xDU. Bonus points to Hayate who even against the whishes of her knights go and assume her part of the sentence in order to help them.

The Huckebein family didn't know the meaning of "selfless sacrifice".

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I don't fully agree with Chrono and Lindy's train of tought, neithe do Yuuno or Nanoha at the time(and the Wolks during the finale of A's with the Arc-en-Ciel). But i'm trying to be on their shows assuming they are on a high-stakes situation trying to pònderate the best and quickest solution. Tactical-wise, both Harlowns where logically correct on their plans but the ethics involved made those a difficult descicion, still i think Chrono being the professional he is, is mentally cold enough to go with the plan if no other solution is available on sight and take full responsibility of his actions after. Fortunately, he counted with the help of people who know better than him, managing to reach a happy ending both times.

Nuking a planet is bad, if nothing else because the loss of lives would reach unacceptable numbers and would leave a huge political stain on their reputation.

But I don't see what's ethically wrong about letting Fate get weaken by the Jewel Seed before moving in to capture both her and the objective.

She is their enemy after all.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Nuking a planet is bad, if nothing else because the loss of lives would reach unacceptable numbers and would leave a huge political stain on their reputation.

But I don't see what's ethically wrong about letting Fate get weaken by the Jewel Seed before moving in to capture both her and the objective.

She is their enemy after all.

You're missing the point when it comes to the Fate argument. The idea that letting Fate be weakened isn't a bad idea. The problem they're arguing is that it didn't matter to the Bureau if Fate was killed by the Jewel Seed whirlpools.