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Guardian Enzo · 2014-03-19, 20:00

My honest opinion is that the problem here is people trying to judge the narrative structure of this arc as if it were a traditional shounen written by a traditional writer - an issue of expectations. But to each his own - that's why art is subjective.

Dawnstorm · 2014-03-19, 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

My honest opinion is that the problem here is people trying to judge the narrative structure of this arc as if it were a traditional shounen written by a traditional writer - an issue of expectations. But to each his own - that's why art is subjective.

Either I don't understand what you're saying, or your personal opinion is smiply wrong about me.

I have no issue with narrative structure. I love the multi-character, detail-oriented approach. I have issues with the narrative presentation: I'd like a bit more freedom in interpretation, and not being spoonfed everything (yes, I know I'm not spoonfed everything).

Hunter X Hunter is hugely entertaining. I'm not, normally, watching long-running series. Hunter X Hunter is one of the very few, and currently the only one I'm watching. If it didn't have that narrative structure, I most certainly wouldn't have gotten that far.

The narrator, though, can be grating. (Other minor points of contention include an over-abundance of tears and dramatic stills - often occuring together.)

Endscape · 2014-03-20, 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon

I too think the over-reliance on the narrator is badly hurting the show. It atrociously slows down the pace and make the viewers feel like the author believe they're idiots who need to be explained everything in details. I don't agree "Show, don't tell" is always the best way to go, but using this technique in the anime would have greatly improved this arc. It's very important to make use of the medium to tell a story. Both Togashi and the anime team failed at that.

It's not so much about treating people as idiots as an aid to understanding complexity. Everything is mixed together so much and in such detail, that the narrator is necessary to sort it all out. It's simply a stylistic choice, one that I personally find refreshing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proto

I actually had to double think about it, and came to the conclusion that, at least for me, the inner monologue's and the narrator flow so seamlessly in the flow of the story, that they become an intrinsic part of the viewing experience for me. They don't take away anything from my enjoyment, they actively enhance and make me like Hunter x Hunter all the more.

That's pretty much how I se it as well. The narrator's voice is a part of what's going on, an objective cornerstone that puts all this different stuff into perspective nicely.

kakakka · 2014-03-20, 01:08

Eh, I used to have a reply typed this morning, but I after reading much of the replies, that does not matter anyways, so i'll head straight to my opinion.

For me, I can honestly say, I find the narrator to be an enhancing experience about all these. First, because it fleshes out the characters more than could have just by just showing it. I don't completely believe in "show don't tell" policy, because expressions and actions themselves can only be interpreted by what the audience knows and sometimes that takes away from what the author actually wanted to tell. That said, I am not against the audience getting it themselves or interpreting scenarios their own way. Even with all the guidance of the narrator, I still find myself interpreting things that were happening in this invasion arc using my own. That is to say, there is still freedom for the audience to form their own view of what's happening; there is no complete restriction on that and I appreciate that much. The point is the narrator, for me, only strengthen the progression of the plot and make it coherent to what the author wanted tell in this story.

Second is there's a sense of realism to getting the narrator explain to us what is happening. The setting of this invasion arc is not to the scale that these characters have experience before despite their experience being prohunters. This is a fight between humans and ants; to protect humanity. As shown, this is on a completely different setting from what they were accustomed to. There would be times their decisions would conflict with what they were supposed to do. Their priorities at the face of these ants, who are also changing at really fast pace in order to adapt to these invaders, can get obscured when their life and pride as humans were on the line. And the characters would not get all of those things in their mind alone, especially in a short time. (I hold the belief that the narrator in the beginning of the invasion was necessary because of this) That's were I think the narrator is really helpful. The characters get to be themselves while the narrator deals with what's needed to be focused on their development.

On those notes, I should point out that I don't like drawn out episodes just to create tension. I really don't like One Piece and Naruto anime (as far as I have shown) when they do these. But I like it when i can see the character's behaviour and interpret them my own way, and have my own insights/foreshadowing to where the character would progress along with the story (Gundam 00, Gargantia, Steins;Gate etc); it makes the viewing experience good. But I just felt that the narrator and all that have done in Hunter x Hunter just felt right. I don't feel the arc is dragging; I even felt its going to fast after this episode. And the narrator doing the explanation on the character's behaviour, I just feel it enhances the viewing experience.

(Another note: I don't think being a manga reader have anything to do with my opinion of the anime. I don't have fond memories of the manga run, getting through atleast 3 or 4 hiatuses. When there's a release of chapter, I read it once and move on. When the anime was announced, I even initially hold the opinion of shortening the Chimera Ants Arc would be for the better (cutting massive wall of text for starters). But when it was actually airing, it's totally different atmosphere and I liked every episode. Maybe because I know the general outline of what's to come, but I don't think they have anything to do with my opinion right now about the narrator. Also, as said, I seriously thought it would take much longer to get up to this point in the story.)

Gan_HOPE326 · 2014-03-20, 05:08

I think that the big difference between what the narrator is doing here and what it does in other shows (or simply what happens when the author chooses to "tell, not show") is the extent to which it does it. Using a narrator to tell people that X is angry rather than showing it is lazy, but what's happening here is much more than that. It feels like a documentary; a scientific analysis of a shonen anime fight. It's almost kind of meta, and ties in with how this arc seems bent on subverting many typical shonen tropes. The point is not the battle: it's the ANALYSIS of the battle, following the criterion that understanding what goes on in people's heads as they throw fisticuffs is more interesting than just showing said fisticuffs.
It would be hard to do it otherwise because these scenes would be very fast and leave no room to anything but a few facial expressions (and still, for example, this method was effectively used in the Gon vs. Hysoka fight), so why not going totally the other way round? It's breaking a convention - the idea that narration is bad - but breaking it so utterly that it goes round and it just becomes baffling. For me it works. It's a very interesting experiment. I wouldn't like it if it was a whole anime like this, maybe (and then again... I DID like Kaiji

), but as a one-shot narrative experiment it works. It may not be the best way to pull it off, and it surely is divisive, but I applaud Togashi's bravery in doing this (and Madhouse's in following him along this road).

Haak · 2014-03-20, 05:31

Meh, once you get used to it, it's not so bad. It's a very bizarre style but I can't say for sure whether or not it's a good thing. The thing is, I don't believe it's actually being used for exposition really. Honestly, I've not come across a single piece of narration that couldn't have been done through different ways using the characters themselves, so I don't think it's even remotely necessary for exposition and a lot of the time it's pretty much redundant in that department. On the other hand I can't really say it's a violation of "Show Not Tell" for that reason: Because it's both showing and telling.

That leaves the question of whether it's redundant or not. Personally I think the narrator is more for emotions than for reasons. It's there to provide heightened tensions, pointing out to the viewers what to watch out for and get them excited on how it will affect the plot. The ominous voice acting makes it work like that, as if the narrator is saying "I'm fucking scared. And you should be too". Whether or not this works is another matter. I've personally found that the best moment in this battle arc has been with Gon when there was hardly any narration. I've also found that the worst moment was during the last episode when Morel and Pouf talked at length about what they had just done for no particular reason other than for our benefit, as if the narrator was sick that day. So yeah I don't really know. If it does work then I'd say it's probably because the directing makes it work and/or Issei Futamata's performance.

bakaouji · 2014-03-20, 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

It may not be the best way to pull it off, and it surely is divisive, but I applaud Togashi's bravery in doing this (and Madhouse's in following him along this road).

It's one thing if it's used in the manga, it's another thing entirely when it's used in a show. There's nothing to applaud because plenty of comics have been doing this for decade and they're still doing it. It works in the manga because there's no voice and the rules are different. It doesn't quite have the same effect in the show, at least for some people, because the show appears to slow down to a screeching halt as the narrator explains what's already obvious.

Like Haak said, it's a question of whether it's redundant or not and I feel its redundant (although the majority seems to disagree). Not only do I find the narrator's voice to be grating, I feel as if someone's reading me a story while I'm watching it. There's very little we can't infer from the character's actions resulting from their motivations. The narrator is merely a substitute for the characters' emotions, nothing that their introspective monologues couldn't cover.

To me the narrator feels like he's monotonously reading off lines from his script as he breaks hard-earned immersion generated by the ineffable tension by reiterating the obvious. At this point he's literally chiming in at every turn now. It's obnoxious and it only serves to eat up precious time.

Anyway, its clear that many don't seem to mind it while others simply tune it out. There's only a fraction of people who are distressed by it.

Kanon · 2014-03-20, 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakaouji

To me the narrator feels like he's monotonously reading off lines from his script as he breaks hard-earned immersion generated by the ineffable tension by reiterating the obvious. At this point he's literally chiming in at every turn now. It's obnoxious and it only serves to eat up precious time.

That is one of my issues with this narrator. His delivery is too monotone, almost mechanical. He feels completely detached, and makes the viewers feel the same way as a result. He could make even the most exciting action sound dull. Gan_HOPE326 said this feels like a documentary and I agree with him, that's exactly the problem for me. Most documentaries aren't exactly tense and exciting.

The best narrator I've ever heard was the one in Kaiji, another show that relies heavily on narration. The main difference with HxH's narrator is that his voice had a lot of emotion in it. He didn't hesitate to scream (like in the infamous kuyashii scene) when necessary, which made us feel more for the characters and reinforced the immersion. He managed to make tense situation seem even more tense. I loved him, and I wish HxH could have used a similar narrator. One that really pulls you into the action.

Dengar · 2014-03-20, 08:39

I will not argue the exact -necessity- of the narration here. I will however, argue that the narration does things that cannot be normally conveyed through "simple inner monologue". After all, the narration provides insight on things that the characters themselves don't have a clear picture of. Whether it's necessary or not, I honestly can't tell, but I welcome the more omniscient angle here.

Gan_HOPE326 · 2014-03-20, 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon

That is one of my issues with this narrator. His delivery is too monotone, almost mechanical. He feels completely detached, and makes the viewers feel the same way as a result. He could make even the most exciting action sound dull. Gan_HOPE326 said this feels like a documentary and I agree with him, that's exactly the problem for me. Most documentaries aren't exactly tense and exciting.

The best narrator I've ever heard was the one in Kaiji, another show that relies heavily on narration. The main difference with HxH's narrator is that his voice had a lot of emotion in it. He didn't hesitate to scream (like in the infamous kuyashii scene) when necessary, which made us feel more for the characters and reinforced the immersion. He managed to make tense situation seem even more tense. I loved him, and I wish HxH could have used a similar narrator. One that really pulls you into the action.

Yeah, but I think the style here fits better with the purpose. In Kaiji, the narrator is one of the many stylistic tricks that have to create tension and add to an experience that would otherwise be quite dry (people playing a simple game). On the other hand, though, in HXH, we're witnessing a superpower battle between humans and mutant ants - yet the narrator's purpose is exactly the opposite one: to create a detached experience, one of cold analysis of what's happening rather than of emotional involvement. It was like this in the manga already, you can just tell from the writing style of the narration, so the voice is fitting.

Of course I can see how someone would not want this detachment. But that's Togashi's provocation: we're witnessing a flashy battle against a species that quite literally wants to wipe out mankind and has the power to do so and he doesn't want us to lose ourselves in the fights - he wants to keep us focused on the fact that this is war between two opposing factions, and paradoxically, that the ants aren't especially wrong compared to the Hunters. It's the ultimate moral greyness - this is a battle for survival, but there's no good and evil on either side.

Kanon · 2014-03-20, 11:54

^I get what they were going for, I just think this approach has too many flaws and hurts the overall show. It worked fine in the manga, but not so much in anime imo.

kakakka · 2014-03-20, 12:00

^FUnny I find it the opposite in this case. I honestly thought the wall of text bogged down the manga experience.

Dawnstorm · 2014-03-20, 14:30

I'm actually somewhere in the middle. The post closest to my position so far is Haak's.

There are roughly two functions of the narration:

- Providing information we need: elevator security, Youpi's being part magical beast... These instances are perfectly fine with me. They occur at natural breaks in the action, and they make things less confusing in the long run.

- Providing commentary on the characters: e.g. when Ikalgo and Killua run past each other. These are usually grating as they ruin what would otherwise have been a great moment. They provide nuance; i.e. they make sure you know exactly what's going on. So I wouldn't say they're redundant. It's just that I derive viewing pleasure partly from figuring out characters (especially in a multi-character set-up), and here the show does the work for me: it leaves me less mentally active than I would normally be, and it also makes the characters appear more simplistic than they would otherwise feel to me. At best, I tolerate these moments; at worst they ruin a scene.

Battle commentary is a mix of both; but during battles the narration usually doesn't bother me, since the exposition part tends to dominate.

I'm not saying they should get rid of the narration; but I do wish they'd tone the commentary part.

I have no issue at all with the delivery. It feels spot-on for me, considering what it's trying to do.

Archon_Wing · 2014-03-21, 01:34

Poor Knuckle's heart is too big, though maybe it might have saved them ultimately.

Also the danger levels of many characters involved has reached critical mass. Gon has only the thought of kill kill kill on his mind, and I'd imagine pouf is the same with his mad, almost lustful attitude towards the king while Pitou seems to be the one that's scared shitless, this is clearly the Most Dangerous cast. MD Geist can go play in the kiddie pool.

FlareKnight · 2014-03-21, 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Poor Knuckle's heart is too big, though maybe it might have saved them ultimately.

Also the danger levels of many characters involved has reached critical mass. Gon has only the thought of kill kill kill on his mind, and I'd imagine pouf is the same with his mad, almost lustful attitude towards the king while Pitou seems to be the one that's scared shitless, this is clearly the Most Dangerous cast. MD Geist can go play in the kiddie pool.

Knuckles heart certainly had the potential to do good or completely doom humanity. We have yet to find out which one it will be yet. Though since I doubt they'll write in the end of the world we can assume he didn't doom them all. Though I'm sure if Morel was in a position to move he would have beaten Knuckle half to death for that stunt.

Kind of funny that dark Gon is doing a better job than anyone else in handling the Royal Guard. He's got two pinned down by the shear fact that he is the only person out here that doesn't give a damn. Props to Gon. He's gone dark, but at least he isn't letting those two out of his sight.

revive4563 · 2014-03-21, 03:48

Actually I felt sometimes narration is too much but at least in episode 121, completely no problem.
In a word, it is not a fundamental matter; it's a matter of case by case. IMO

More than that,...Nov is too naive.

MCAL · 2014-03-21, 10:29

Haven't watched Kaji so I had to see a few clips, but I disagree. Having a narrator like that would have been absolutely detrimental to the story Hunter x Hunter is trying to tell. It would have been more jarring than any narration ever could. Hunter x Hunter isn't an over the top, "Over 9000" kind of show.

Archon_Wing · 2014-03-21, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCAL

Haven't watched Kaji so I had to see a few clips, but I disagree. Having a narrator like that would have been absolutely detrimental to the story Hunter x Hunter is trying to tell. It would have been more jarring than any narration ever could. Hunter x Hunter isn't an over the top, "Over 9000" kind of show.

It would. Kaiji's narrator made me laugh. Likewise, Akagi's narrator was usually talking about how awesome that guy was. The bias and emotion shown in these narrations are intentionally over the top and stylized-- it was to emphasize certain aspects. I think the subdued narration is fine for HxH because that's the nature of the story itself. It's not just about hurr durr charging mah lazer beam kinda thing.

Guardian Enzo · 2014-03-21, 20:02

On top of everything else that mystifies me about this controversy, I'm mystified by the suggestion that Futamata Issei's narration is emotionless. He's hardly robotic or monotonal - rather, he subtly suggests the tension of the moment in his delivery while still maintaining the measured tone that's absolutely necessary.

hamazura · 2014-03-22, 01:14

absolutely good episode vs youpi, and far less narration! perfect!

2014-03-20, 05:08	Link #4285
Gan_HOPE326 Maddo Scientisto Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: UK	I think that the big difference between what the narrator is doing here and what it does in other shows (or simply what happens when the author chooses to "tell, not show") is the extent to which it does it. Using a narrator to tell people that X is angry rather than showing it is lazy, but what's happening here is much more than that. It feels like a documentary; a scientific analysis of a shonen anime fight. It's almost kind of meta, and ties in with how this arc seems bent on subverting many typical shonen tropes. The point is not the battle: it's the ANALYSIS of the battle, following the criterion that understanding what goes on in people's heads as they throw fisticuffs is more interesting than just showing said fisticuffs. It would be hard to do it otherwise because these scenes would be very fast and leave no room to anything but a few facial expressions (and still, for example, this method was effectively used in the Gon vs. Hysoka fight), so why not going totally the other way round? It's breaking a convention - the idea that narration is bad - but breaking it so utterly that it goes round and it just becomes baffling. For me it works. It's a very interesting experiment. I wouldn't like it if it was a whole anime like this, maybe (and then again... I DID like Kaiji ), but as a one-shot narrative experiment it works. It may not be the best way to pull it off, and it surely is divisive, but I applaud Togashi's bravery in doing this (and Madhouse's in following him along this road). __________________ ---- What if Goku was super smart and had a thing for philosophy? Find out in The Optimised Wish Project! ---- My other fanfiction can be found here.

2014-03-20, 05:31	Link #4286
Haak Me, An Intellectual Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: UK Age: 33	Meh, once you get used to it, it's not so bad. It's a very bizarre style but I can't say for sure whether or not it's a good thing. The thing is, I don't believe it's actually being used for exposition really. Honestly, I've not come across a single piece of narration that couldn't have been done through different ways using the characters themselves, so I don't think it's even remotely necessary for exposition and a lot of the time it's pretty much redundant in that department. On the other hand I can't really say it's a violation of "Show Not Tell" for that reason: Because it's both showing and telling. That leaves the question of whether it's redundant or not. Personally I think the narrator is more for emotions than for reasons. It's there to provide heightened tensions, pointing out to the viewers what to watch out for and get them excited on how it will affect the plot. The ominous voice acting makes it work like that, as if the narrator is saying "I'm fucking scared. And you should be too". Whether or not this works is another matter. I've personally found that the best moment in this battle arc has been with Gon when there was hardly any narration. I've also found that the worst moment was during the last episode when Morel and Pouf talked at length about what they had just done for no particular reason other than for our benefit, as if the narrator was sick that day. So yeah I don't really know. If it does work then I'd say it's probably because the directing makes it work and/or Issei Futamata's performance. __________________ MAL \| AnimeSuki Choice Awards 2020 Winners

2014-03-20, 11:54	Link #4291
Kanon Kana Hanazawa ♥ Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: France Age: 37	^I get what they were going for, I just think this approach has too many flaws and hurts the overall show. It worked fine in the manga, but not so much in anime imo. __________________

2014-03-21, 10:29	Link #4297
MCAL Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012	Haven't watched Kaji so I had to see a few clips, but I disagree. Having a narrator like that would have been absolutely detrimental to the story Hunter x Hunter is trying to tell. It would have been more jarring than any narration ever could. Hunter x Hunter isn't an over the top, "Over 9000" kind of show. Last edited by MCAL; 2014-03-21 at 17:13.

2014-03-22, 01:14	Link #4300
hamazura whatever Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: wherever	absolutely good episode vs youpi, and far less narration! perfect! __________________

2014-03-20, 01:08	Link #4284
kakakka Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	Eh, I used to have a reply typed this morning, but I after reading much of the replies, that does not matter anyways, so i'll head straight to my opinion. For me, I can honestly say, I find the narrator to be an enhancing experience about all these. First, because it fleshes out the characters more than could have just by just showing it. I don't completely believe in "show don't tell" policy, because expressions and actions themselves can only be interpreted by what the audience knows and sometimes that takes away from what the author actually wanted to tell. That said, I am not against the audience getting it themselves or interpreting scenarios their own way. Even with all the guidance of the narrator, I still find myself interpreting things that were happening in this invasion arc using my own. That is to say, there is still freedom for the audience to form their own view of what's happening; there is no complete restriction on that and I appreciate that much. The point is the narrator, for me, only strengthen the progression of the plot and make it coherent to what the author wanted tell in this story. Second is there's a sense of realism to getting the narrator explain to us what is happening. The setting of this invasion arc is not to the scale that these characters have experience before despite their experience being prohunters. This is a fight between humans and ants; to protect humanity. As shown, this is on a completely different setting from what they were accustomed to. There would be times their decisions would conflict with what they were supposed to do. Their priorities at the face of these ants, who are also changing at really fast pace in order to adapt to these invaders, can get obscured when their life and pride as humans were on the line. And the characters would not get all of those things in their mind alone, especially in a short time. (I hold the belief that the narrator in the beginning of the invasion was necessary because of this) That's were I think the narrator is really helpful. The characters get to be themselves while the narrator deals with what's needed to be focused on their development. On those notes, I should point out that I don't like drawn out episodes just to create tension. I really don't like One Piece and Naruto anime (as far as I have shown) when they do these. But I like it when i can see the character's behaviour and interpret them my own way, and have my own insights/foreshadowing to where the character would progress along with the story (Gundam 00, Gargantia, Steins;Gate etc); it makes the viewing experience good. But I just felt that the narrator and all that have done in Hunter x Hunter just felt right. I don't feel the arc is dragging; I even felt its going to fast after this episode. And the narrator doing the explanation on the character's behaviour, I just feel it enhances the viewing experience. (Another note: I don't think being a manga reader have anything to do with my opinion of the anime. I don't have fond memories of the manga run, getting through atleast 3 or 4 hiatuses. When there's a release of chapter, I read it once and move on. When the anime was announced, I even initially hold the opinion of shortening the Chimera Ants Arc would be for the better (cutting massive wall of text for starters). But when it was actually airing, it's totally different atmosphere and I liked every episode. Maybe because I know the general outline of what's to come, but I don't think they have anything to do with my opinion right now about the narrator. Also, as said, I seriously thought it would take much longer to get up to this point in the story.)

2014-03-20, 08:39	Link #4289
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	I will not argue the exact -necessity- of the narration here. I will however, argue that the narration does things that cannot be normally conveyed through "simple inner monologue". After all, the narration provides insight on things that the characters themselves don't have a clear picture of. Whether it's necessary or not, I honestly can't tell, but I welcome the more omniscient angle here.

2014-03-20, 12:00	Link #4292
kakakka Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	^FUnny I find it the opposite in this case. I honestly thought the wall of text bogged down the manga experience.

2014-03-20, 14:30	Link #4293
Dawnstorm Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Austria	I'm actually somewhere in the middle. The post closest to my position so far is Haak's. There are roughly two functions of the narration: - Providing information we need: elevator security, Youpi's being part magical beast... These instances are perfectly fine with me. They occur at natural breaks in the action, and they make things less confusing in the long run. - Providing commentary on the characters: e.g. when Ikalgo and Killua run past each other. These are usually grating as they ruin what would otherwise have been a great moment. They provide nuance; i.e. they make sure you know exactly what's going on. So I wouldn't say they're redundant. It's just that I derive viewing pleasure partly from figuring out characters (especially in a multi-character set-up), and here the show does the work for me: it leaves me less mentally active than I would normally be, and it also makes the characters appear more simplistic than they would otherwise feel to me. At best, I tolerate these moments; at worst they ruin a scene. Battle commentary is a mix of both; but during battles the narration usually doesn't bother me, since the exposition part tends to dominate. I'm not saying they should get rid of the narration; but I do wish they'd tone the commentary part. I have no issue at all with the delivery. It feels spot-on for me, considering what it's trying to do.

2014-03-21, 03:48	Link #4296
revive4563 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Inside of frog	Actually I felt sometimes narration is too much but at least in episode 121, completely no problem. In a word, it is not a fundamental matter; it's a matter of case by case. IMO More than that,...Nov is too naive.