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Westlo · 2010-09-29, 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by justavisitor

So actually I like Ranka a lot more after that scene

Did your opinion of her go up after she invited Alto to go to the planet full of people who just killed his best friend?

justavisitor · 2010-09-29, 22:09

after that scenes hugging with ai-kun (god knows what happened

) I think she can see that vajra may not be bad, but rather there is a misunderstanding between human and vajra...so the director gives her a new mission, a mission to find co-existence between Vajra and Human

However, while her objective is great, human does also have emotion and it is very hard to convince Alto to join her...(this scene is open for many interpretations...personally I think she realizes that it will be a miracle to convince Alto to join her, but she still tries and sees what happen)

it's actually like the gundam 00 movie: XD

Spoiler for spoiler:

I think I understand her motive so my opinion of her stayed at the same high level

justinstrife · 2010-09-29, 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westlo

It doesn't excuse her misreading Alto performing a stunt as a confession, it doesn't excuse her overreacting to a partial hug, it doesn't excuse her wanting to "die" instead of singing to save people. She deserved a SDF Dadelus bitchslap for that let alone the slap she got from Sheryl, I really hate the slapback from Ranka in 26.. oh you sung yourself to death trying to protect Frontier from a Varja Assault powered up by my singing while I was brainwashed, how dare you give up just before you die *SLAP* lol.

She's clearly got some fing issues since she than invites Alto to hang out with the guys who just killed his best friend, the wound was still raw ffs...

I can't disagree with any part of this post. That slap from Ranka to Sheryl was just so incredibly wrong and mis-placed I couldn't even see straight.

And there was no way in hell Alto was going to go with her to the Vajra homeworld looking for piece right after his best friend was killed, when Frontier was in very bad shape, and Sheryl was sick/dying. As always, Ranka only sees things from her point of view, not the view of others around her.

Mei19 · 2010-09-29, 23:02

^ Hahaha weak. In the end, Alto ended up JOINING the vajra that "Killed his Best Friend" in episode 25 XD I wonder why.

~~user112168~~ · 2010-09-30, 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

I don't know what the first quote is about and I can't even find it, So I'm not going to even try and take that out of context.

It's the rooftop scene from the big Vajra battle - when Sheryl slaped her.
Magnus in his essay was saying Ranka shoulda been a big girl and sing to start with, which makes her inferior to Sheryl. But her singing at that time turned out to be a BAD mistake, and may even have been what got Michel killed. Ranka claimed she wasn't up for it, and events proved her correct.

A big part of Ranka's issues later in the series was feeling like everyone was using her as a tool, not a person. This event couldn't have made her more secure.

Quote:

It's quite possible for Ranka to have planned on saying good-bye to Alto and then have left later isn't it?

Otherwise why are there letters from Ranka left at her home and at Nanase's bedside?

The first thing she says to Alto is "I need a favor ..." but then she has a hard time telling him the details (him flying into Vajra territory with her and a pet Vajra). Ranka was expecting Alto to leave with her, but by this time Ranka and Alto's worldviews had diverged a lot to say the least. She was looking for peace with the aliens, him for war. It's very Macross.
For people saying there's no romantic moment for Ranka post ep 17, the first half of the meeting in ep 21 is quite romantic, until he gets a look at Ai-kun.
She's quite surprised by Brera turning up, i guess Grace was behind this manipulating everyone.

raile · 2010-09-30, 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mei19

^ Hahaha weak. In the end, Alto ended up JOINING the vajra that "Killed his Best Friend" in episode 25 XD I wonder why.

Because he found out that it was all a big-ass conspiracy by Grace and Galaxy?

DeX-kun · 2010-09-30, 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by justinstrife

I can't disagree with any part of this post. That slap from Ranka to Sheryl was just so incredibly wrong and mis-placed I couldn't even see straight.

And there was no way in hell Alto was going to go with her to the Vajra homeworld looking for piece right after his best friend was killed, when Frontier was in very bad shape, and Sheryl was sick/dying. As always, Ranka only sees things from her point of view, not the view of others around her.

Actually, Ranka was looking at it from everyone's point of view (meaning the entire race of humanity and Vajra respectively.) Right before Brera shows up, Ranka states how everyone wants to live free, and from this statement we can infer that she was referring to the Vajra as well. While it is quite natural for Alto to react in the way that he did, it doesn't mean he was right.

Remember what Ranka says when Alto tells her that the Vajra killed Michael and how it's either us or them, she states that the particular Vajra he was aiming at was not the one that killed Michael or anyone else as a matter of fact. Instead of trying to eradicate the entire race, why not try to understand one another to allow/accept the idea of coexistence? This is one of the idealistic messages sent through episode 25 where Ranka explains how the Vajra feared this individualistic sense (15:20 is the beginning of this explanation.)

And of course both Ranka and Sheryl being the catalysts that allowed the Vajra to understand humans and vice-versa

~~user112168~~ · 2010-09-30, 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westlo

Did your opinion of her go up after she invited Alto to go to the planet full of people who just killed his best friend?

Which turned out to be the good guys after all. Ranka was unpopular, but proven right

I think Grace was goading both sides all along into attacking each other, at first it was just to destroy Frontier (luddite anti-implant types), but I think after she discovered Ranka's power she brought bigger plans into play.

Note how Grace had Brera destroy a nearby Vajra nest before SMS could capture it for study. I assume it had something in their that would implicate Grace or MacGalaxy. Perhaps this nest was one of the sources of the initial attack waves in the series.

Grace setting off that bomb on Gallia-IV would have been seen as an act of war by the Vajra - they just had their home nuked - note how the Vajra had been there for years and never attacked the NUNS outpost. I'm sure she did all she could to implicate Macross Frontier in the Vajra's eyes

Westlo · 2010-09-30, 01:23

You people just don't get it, you're like people who fuck up at work and make a mistake and yet when the client accepts (sometimes because of no choice) said mistake act like there was no problem at all.

No you f'd up.

It doesn't matter if her singing stirred up the Varja, her reasons for not wanting to sing had nothing to do with that. She didn't want to sing and instead wanted to die because "OMH I THOUGHT ALTO CONFESSED TO ME BUT HE'S HUGGING SHERLY111!!!1! /wrist". You do realize if she hadn't of sung people still would've died, what exactly were Sheryl and Alto to do? Let her wallow in self pity not sing and let the Varja continue to slaughter people when as far as they known her singing would stop it? Ridiculous, her wanting to die over saving people showed her character for what it is, whereas later on Sheryl literally sings herself to death to protect Frontier.

It doesn't matter if she was right in joining the varja, the only reason she went was because she thought she was doing the right thing and because of her memories and Ai-kun who she told nobody about. (Hey Ranka, when Alto went into your room.. that was like you know a good time!) Her going there ended up in her being brainwashed and used to power up the Varja who killed thousands of people.

It doesn't matter if Alto joined the Varja side, that was a while after Michael's death and after it was revealed that Grace was behind it all. Ranka otoh wanted him to go right after it happened when the wound was still raw. Moronic to say the least and don't get me started on how stupid, unjustified and out of character her slap to Sheryl was.

She made a lot of stupid choices and got covered by plot period

justinstrife · 2010-09-30, 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westlo

You people just don't get it, you're like people who fuck up at work and make a mistake and yet when the client accepts (sometimes because of no choice) said mistake act like there was no problem at all.

No you f'd up.

It doesn't matter if her singing stirred up the Varja, her reasons for not wanting to sing had nothing to do with that. She didn't want to sing and instead wanted to die because "OMH I THOUGHT ALTO CONFESSED TO ME BUT HE'S HUGGING SHERLY111!!!1! /wrist".

It doesn't matter if she was right in joining the varja, the only reason she went was because she thought she was doing the right thing and because of Ai-kun who she told nobody about. Her going there ended up in her being brainwashed and used to power up the Varja who killed thousands of people.

It doesn't matter if Alto joined the Varja side, that was later a while after Michael's death, she wanted him to go right after it happened.

She made a lot of stupid choices and got covered by plot.

Exactly... They aren't considering the circumstances during the time Ranka was making her decisions. They are only looking at those decisions from hindsight view. We can all look back and say,"Sure it wasn't popular, but she ended up being right!". NOBODY on Frontier other than Ranka knew what she knew. And since she never bothered to ever tell anybody, it stayed with her only. Thousands of people had died by the Vajra hand, and they had no idea why they had been attacked time and time again.

Irisiel · 2010-09-30, 04:37

Also, one of the problems that Ranka has, which is very apparent in the Vajra frenzy swarm concert, is that she focuses ONLY on Alto, but only when it comes to his possible feelings for her and Sheryl.

She couldn't sing for Michael (Star Date and Fastest Delivery, anyone?), she couldn't sing for Nanase, she couldn't sing for Luca, she couldn't sing for Bobby (Macross Zero remake, anyone?) and she couldn't sing for Ozma.

Those people? Have supported and protected her for years before Alto entered the picture. And that's not even going into Elmo and her Frontier fans.

That's in direct contrast to Sheryl, who started to sing again, in the same battle, for Frontier's people (and the way that the scene played out made it seem like she sung for Nanase, Michael, Klan and Alto in particularly, in fact, in that order. Nanase from her taking Nanase to the shelter earlier, Michael from his death, Klan for losing Michael and Alto for losing Michael, even though she could not have any knowledge of this, it was pretty much how the scene played out in the show).

Then she started to sing for charity, which was also for Frontier's people who lost Ranka. Then she sung in battle and nearly died singing.

The fact that Ranka doesn't seem to have thought Alto's feelings for Michael being anything of consequence when it came to going to Vajra planet is bad (Really, she was right there when Alto screamed Michael's name and nearly followed Michael's body into space). It shows that she views his feelings in terms of "does he love me or Sheryl?" and not "did he love Michael? Does he like Klan, Nanase or anyone else who've been injured and/or killed?".

(Of course, the fact that from before the series, Alto was estranged from his own family and therefore, the closest people we've been shown for him to have around are Michael and Luca, makes this a little bit worse from Alto's POV. Most official art also shows how close these three were, and with how Michael could butt in on Alto's life, and Alto in his, I wouldn't hesitate to say that they were as close as family by the time Michael was killed.)

And that is the crucial crutch to Ranka's character.

No, she wasn't right to run off to Vajra planet, do you know why?

Because she left Frontier without protection. She left without sufficient protection. It resulted in her being brainwashed to sing a song that would quickly kill morale in Frontier's army, as well as making the Vajra kill millions of people and giving Grace control of Vajra Queen. The only reason why it wasn't worse? FRONTIER AND QUARTER stepped in and cleaned up her mess.

The right decision would be to submit her observations and theories to the people she works for (as greedy as Leon was, he showed that he at least wanted Frontier to survive to be ruled over by him). Then they would maybe have tried to open up communication while having Ranka under sufficient protection that she can't be used against them. Or at the very least devised a plan of attack/defence that would be useful.

But once again, Ranka only thinks about what would directly affect her and the ones she's caring about for the moment (Brera and Ai-kun). She can't sit down and think "okay, so I leave to return Ai-kun. What will happen to Frontier?".

Or even in the ending "okay, so I ran away from Frontier weeks ago, what kind of development has Alto and Sheryl had in their relationship?".

In fact, on the romance front, that scene is awful. We have Alto achieving his Dream with a big D, and Sheryl being happy for him. Ranka... looks sad. She isn't even looking at Alto, doesn't even feel a tiny twinge of "it's so great that you finally got your dream!". It shows a blindness for Alto's feelings. Which is emphasised when she challenges Sheryl for his heart. It never occurs to her that the Alto and Sheryl she left on Frontier now are different people.

The fact that Alto has grown into protecting the whole of Frontier (really, am I the only one who sees at least a minuscule of his feelings for Michael in his "Is this your love?" scene? He's talking to Klan after Michael is dead about the complications of protecting everything he cares for). The fact that Sheryl has almost completely discarded her selfishness.

They can't just return to the triangle. Everything except Ranka's mental state have changed. Alto and Sheryl are the saviours of Frontier. They live together. Ranka is a traitor who killed thousands (killing someone in your sleep might be forgiveable in some circumstances if it's only one person, but by now the Frontier fleet, and any one else who lost those dear to them, should be out for blood. Even if each and everyone of those thousands only knew one person each, and that person's anguish doesn't affect anyone else, there's still thousands of survivors who would still be coping with the consequences of her actions).

We're talking about Ranka being transferred into protective custody, hidden from the world, while Alto and Sheryl will be pushed forth, front, right and centre. How is Ranka supposed to compete with Sheryl in love or songs?

A person who yet haven't developed the empathy to see the consequences of their actions have no business in a romantic relationship.

Fact is, Alto has his sky. Fact is, Sheryl is happy he has his sky. Fact is, Ranka is sad that Sheryl is happy for Alto, never sparing a smile for Alto's sky.

Even if Alto doesn't choose any one of them, Sheryl would still be the one closest to him simply because she's able to find happiness in his happiness. Likewise, he was always adamant about supporting her dreams by actively pushing her forward, and then becoming a pillar for her to lean on.

Oh, and Alto will return the earring. And finish his conversation from the make up room.

One day I'll write a complete and more coherent essay on this. But it will probably be after the movies as I want to compare and contrast.

magnuskn · 2010-09-30, 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by reelyanoob

Yeah, but Ranka's assessment actually turned out to be the correct one in this incident. She said "I can't sing like this" and she was right - she couldn't sing in that state - it backfired remember, and made the attack worse. If they'd listened to Ranka and let her calm down before trying to sing, the attack wouldn't have intensified.

Which nobody had any way to know. Sheryl and Alto acted in the most logical way, have Ranka use her power to calm the Vajra. It's still Rankas fault for not being able to get herself under control.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reelyanoob

I just checked this scene she's clearly surprised to see Brera at the site. It's asked as a question "Brera-san?". She's clearly confused as to how come he's there (he really came out of nowhere), it doesn't sound like just an admonishment against him knocking down Alto. (ep 23 19:00+)

I think your assessment is a bit off-track here.

I read it as her being surprised that Brera just beat the shit out of Alto. And even if she didn't know he was there, that makes her just incredibly stupid and oblivious to other peoples feelings. Or "incredibly naive", although at that point it already goes way beyond that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reelyanoob

Well, if they're leaving holes the size of a bus in their logic, what does that say about the strength of the argument?
If it was rock-solid they wouldn't need to go to such lengths

Sure, if you are only able to read one meaning into a comment, that is what conclusion you'd come to. BTW, I offered that as a second possibilty to Ranka just being incredibly callous and stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by justavisitor

And then in the next episode, her courage to sing alone in front of millions of vajras, despite the last failure, is a major major plus in my eyes...if I wasn't a Ranka fan before, I did certainly become her fan after that scene

Quite honestly, if in a situation where you otherwise will 100% certainly DIE ( and everybody else you loves ALSO dies ) you are not able to (wo)man up enough to try once more the one effective tactic known against the enemy, then you are, as a character, utterly broken. Or your name is Shinji.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mei19

^ Hahaha weak. In the end, Alto ended up JOINING the vajra that "Killed his Best Friend" in episode 25 XD I wonder why.

And it took a desperate battle against those very foes, where many of his fellow Frontier soldiers and citizens died, and then ANOTHER bigger foe appeared for that to happen.

And that is not even taking into account how Frontier ended in the most touchy-feely way possible, while there had been very little build-up for the Vajra to suddenly become friendly. The Vajra are themselves the worst antagonists of all Macross series ( yes, even worse than the Protodevlin ), because they are, until the last episode, only a mute, implacable enemy. Before the last episode, we got one little glimpse into their minds during episode fourteen, but even that was not really conclusive to making them sympathetic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reelyanoob

For people saying there's no romantic moment for Ranka post ep 17, the first half of the meeting in ep 21 is quite romantic, until he gets a look at Ai-kun.

True, it was very romantic. FOR RANKA. You tell me where Alto is going all romantically gooey over Ranka in that scene? "Do what you like" is not exactly a the ultimate declaration of love.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Actually, Ranka was looking at it from everyone's point of view (meaning the entire race of humanity and Vajra respectively.) Right before Brera shows up, Ranka states how everyone wants to live free, and from this statement we can infer that she was referring to the Vajra as well. While it is quite natural for Alto to react in the way that he did, it doesn't mean he was right.

Yes, yes he was. He couldn't know by any means how the Vajra would react to Ranka, after they'd just blown up a big chunk of the Frontier fleet. It was a bloody suicide mission for everyone thinking rationally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Remember what Ranka says when Alto tells her that the Vajra killed Michael and how it's either us or them, she states that the particular Vajra he was aiming at was not the one that killed Michael or anyone else as a matter of fact. Instead of trying to eradicate the entire race, why not try to understand one another to allow/accept the idea of coexistence? This is one of the idealistic messages sent through episode 25 where Ranka explains how the Vajra feared this individualistic sense (15:20 is the beginning of this explanation.)

Although the series ended with peace and flowers, I personally am still not having very friendly thoughts about the Vajra. They were the ones who began the hostilities with Frontier and relentlessly attacked the fleet. I can absolutely understand how Alto would have gotten into the "us vs. them" mindset. And I think, even with the flower power finale, there will still be a lot of bad feelings about them with the surviving populace at large, who lost loved ones to those relentless attacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reelyanoob

Grace setting off that bomb on Gallia-IV would have been seen as an act of war by the Vajra - they just had their home nuked - note how the Vajra had been there for years and never attacked the NUNS outpost. I'm sure she did all she could to implicate Macross Frontier in the Vajra's eyes

Oh, I remember too that the cabal in Graces head said the lead the Vajra to Frontier... however I don't remember them saying that they made them attack Frontier, that the Vajra did all on their own. Calling the Vajra "good guys" is overstating things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westlo

You people just don't get it, you're like people who fuck up at work and make a mistake and yet when the client accepts (sometimes because of no choice) said mistake act like there was no problem at all.

No you f'd up.

It doesn't matter if her singing stirred up the Varja, her reasons for not wanting to sing had nothing to do with that. She didn't want to sing and instead wanted to die because "OMH I THOUGHT ALTO CONFESSED TO ME BUT HE'S HUGGING SHERLY111!!!1! /wrist". You do realize if she hadn't of sung people still would've died, what exactly were Sheryl and Alto to do? Let her wallow in self pity not sing and let the Varja continue to slaughter people when as far as they known her singing would stop it? Ridiculous, her wanting to die over saving people showed her character for what it is, whereas later on Sheryl literally sings herself to death to protect Frontier.

It doesn't matter if she was right in joining the varja, the only reason she went was because she thought she was doing the right thing and because of her memories and Ai-kun who she told nobody about. (Hey Ranka, when Alto went into your room.. that was like you know a good time!) Her going there ended up in her being brainwashed and used to power up the Varja who killed thousands of people.

It doesn't matter if Alto joined the Varja side, that was a while after Michael's death and after it was revealed that Grace was behind it all. Ranka otoh wanted him to go right after it happened when the wound was still raw. Moronic to say the least and don't get me started on how stupid, unjustified and out of character her slap to Sheryl was.

She made a lot of stupid choices and got covered by plot period

Quoted for great truth.

magnuskn · 2010-09-30, 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisiel

I take a bow. That was excellent. And I must admit, I overlooked Altos feelings for Michael ( friendly ones, not yaoi ones!

) in what I thought beforehand of that scene.

Once more, excellent thoughts. I can't wait for your essay.

Irisiel · 2010-09-30, 08:02

The "Is that your love" scene only makes sense to me if one is literally talking about Alto's ability to love instead of an object of his affection.

I think that scene, prompted by Michael's death, Nanase's coma, Ranka's desertion and Sheryl's impeding death is something like this:

Alto loves a lot. He loves Sheryl, Ranka, Michael, Luca, Klan, Ozma, Nanase, Bobby, Ranzou, Yasaburo, the valkyries, his kabuki and everything else.

He's just too tsundere to admit it most of the time. And he has put himself in a position to defend the things he loves.

Ranka, however, is a large burden for him to carry on protecting. Not only do she keep secrets from him which would aid in her protection, but she then runs off, effectively being a lamb running into a pack of wolves who have the sheep surrounded. What is the sheepdog to do? If he abandons the herd, he cannot protect them.

Alto loves, and he has seen the things he loves be destroyed. He loves two women at the brink of death (Sheryl and Nanase, coma is actually serious stuff), fighting an enemy he cannot fight.

But he also loves a girl who is in the clutches of enemies that he can fight, but wont, because it would jeopardise everything else that he loves.

Which is one of the reasons why it breaks Klan's heart. The fact that Alto loves so much, but is essentially powerless to protect what he loves, because now, the people he loves all are on opposing sides (remember that even though he's content with protecting Frontier, he still flips out when Quarter splits. This is also why he's so torn when Ozma tries to make him pick sides. He loves them all, but if he stays with Frontier, he must attack Ozma and Ranka for the future of Frontier. If he went with Ranka, he would have to attack Frontier. If he went with Ozma, he would have no idea what would happen, who he would have to attack and protect).

Basically, Alto loves a lot, and shows it by protecting. He does not scream out declarations (except at mortal peril, like with Michael and Sheryl).

It is only towards the end that he verbalises this love, first to Klan, and then he tries to talk to Sheryl, who stops him, because she misunderstood his conversation with Klan.

When Ranzou watches the battle, he states "This is your love, huh?" with a smile. Ranzou is the same as Alto, and is content that even though they misunderstand and disagree with each other, they still love. Father and son, two stubborn blockheads who love a lot, but tries to hide that love.

I really cannot interpret the Klan and Alto scene any other way, because then Ranzou's scene would make no sense. It would also fit with Alto's realisation that this war is for real. Earlier, all he felt was anger, frustration and desperation, which he lashed out at Vajra. Then, during Sheryl's charity concert, we watch as he, mellow and sad, instead of righteously angry, discover the destruction Vajra brought to something [Frontier] that he loves.

What kind and magnitude of love he feels towards individuals are up for grabs, but I believe that the Klan-Ranzou statement is a way for creators to say that yes, Alto really does care a lot, even when he hides behind a thorny mask.

Mei19 · 2010-09-30, 12:05

This conversation has inspired me to do a monologue. It's not much but please enjoy.

Me: Nooo Ranka left because she knew that the Vajra isn't what Frontier thinks it is. She left to find the truth and found out that Galaxy was making Frontier and Vajra fight resulting in deaths and more deaths!

Ranka haters: Yeah? Well it was stupid of her to leave because Frontier was defenseless. She should've stayed and sang anyway. Lots died! And she shouldn't have asked Alto to come to Vajra land right after his best friend died. That was insensitive of her!

Me: Even if she stayed in Frontier noone will believe her because everyone was blinded by hatred, like I saidddd, she wanted to find the truth and wanted Alto in on it. This was the best thing she could come up with to stop the chain of killing altogether. It was better than singing for Frontier and killing more vajra, and igniting more hate. It will never end. Alto accepted the Vajra in 25 because it turned out she was RIGHT anyway, so does this mean should Ranka have asked Alto a week later after his best friend died??

Ranka haters: You and the Vajra are F'd up! Ranka is a stupid a traitor because she let herself get caught by Grace. Sheryl and Alto are the heroes! And most of all, she shouldn't have left!

*Bows* That is the end of my monologue. I resign myself from this conversation to bang my head on a desk. All this hate over a scene in an anime that had a happy ending for all characters (except Leon) sheesh.

Yot-chan · 2010-09-30, 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mei19

All this hate over a scene in an anime that had a happy ending for all characters (except Leon) sheesh.

And Michael...and Grace...and the crew of Battle Galaxy...and the hundreds (thousands?) of Vajra who sacrificed themselves to save Island 1...

Irisiel · 2010-09-30, 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mei19

This conversation has inspired me to do a monologue. It's not much but please enjoy.

Me: Nooo Ranka left because she knew that the Vajra isn't what Frontier thinks it is. She left to find the truth and found out that Galaxy was making Frontier and Vajra fight resulting in deaths and more deaths!

Ranka haters: Yeah? Well it was stupid of her to leave because Frontier was defenseless. She should've stayed and sang anyway. Lots died! And she shouldn't have asked Alto to come to Vajra land right after his best friend died. That was insensitive of her!

Me: Even if she stayed in Frontier noone will believe her because everyone was blinded by hatred, like I saidddd, she wanted to find the truth and wanted Alto in on it. This was the best thing she could come up with to stop the chain of killing altogether. It was better than singing for Frontier and killing more vajra, and igniting more hate. It will never end. Alto accepted the Vajra in 25 because it turned out she was RIGHT anyway, so does this mean should Ranka have asked Alto a week later after his best friend died??

Ranka haters: You and the Vajra are F'd up! Ranka is a stupid a traitor because she let herself get caught by Grace. Sheryl and Alto are the heroes! And most of all, she shouldn't have left!

*Bows* That is the end of my monologue. I resign myself from this conversation to bang my head on a desk. All this hate over a scene in an anime that had a happy ending for all characters (except Leon) sheesh.

One question:
What would have happened to Earth, Eden and all the human-zentradi colonies if Frontier never attacked?

What would have happened if Alto and Sheryl never showed up and snapped Ranka from her brainwashing and saved her? Would Ranka maybe have had a hand in genocide then? You know, since she, by her own free will, kept information from authorities, went to Vajra planet and enabled Grace to take control of her? She might be innocent by motive/intention, but when a crime would be that large (genocide of humanity, zentradi and whatever animals got in the way), running headlong into a situation she didn't fully understand (she didn't, she had a hunch that Vajra could be communicated with) just to let her pet free after his brethren slaughtered the people in her home (including one of her friends in front of her eyes, and putting her best friend in a coma), doesn't quite add up.

If Macross Frontier and Quarter never showed up, or showed up a few hours later? Macross City would have been obliterated. That's millions of humans, zentradi, their pets and whatever city animals living there. Not to mention the money expenses.

But if Ranka never ran away and notified proper authorities (like the ones she signed a contract to work with), Grace would never had the chance to take over Vajra Queen.

Just imagine Frontier and Quarter showing up a day later. How many lives would have been lost while brainwashed Ranka sang the Vajra into a frenzy?

THAT'S why humans are able to plan ahead. But Ranka never used this ability. Since others in the series planned ahead, this became another problem with Ranka's character.

To sum up Ranka: Coulda, woulda, shoulda, didn't.
Could have planned ahead.
Would have been a serious point of the triangle.
Should have shown more empathy for others.
Didn't.

Oh, and Alto and Sheryl are definitely going to get the hero treatment: Alto made the shot that ended the war. Sheryl was hoisted ever since Ranka ran away into the heroine spot. What the people of Frontier saw of Ranka? She ran away, and then reappeared, leading the charge of Galaxy and Vajra singing a song that might almost be sacred in the Macross universe. Just during her song, each island, each valkyrie that the Vajra hit? Probably resulted either in a death or serious injury, if only by panic.

Unless every single person on Frontier are strangers who are not related to one another and never interacted whatsoever, and that they have no regard for any type of life, there's likely a majority who wants her to answer for those deaths alone.

And the more they would investigate, if Ranka is stupid enough to say "I figured out months ago that I had a connection to Vajra, I just never acted or told anyone about it", yeah, well, shit will hit the fan.

justavisitor · 2010-09-30, 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mei19

This conversation has inspired me to do a monologue. It's not much but please enjoy.

Me: Nooo Ranka left because she knew that the Vajra isn't what Frontier thinks it is. She left to find the truth and found out that Galaxy was making Frontier and Vajra fight resulting in deaths and more deaths!

Ranka haters: Yeah? Well it was stupid of her to leave because Frontier was defenseless. She should've stayed and sang anyway. Lots died! And she shouldn't have asked Alto to come to Vajra land right after his best friend died. That was insensitive of her!

Me: Even if she stayed in Frontier noone will believe her because everyone was blinded by hatred, like I saidddd, she wanted to find the truth and wanted Alto in on it. This was the best thing she could come up with to stop the chain of killing altogether. It was better than singing for Frontier and killing more vajra, and igniting more hate. It will never end. Alto accepted the Vajra in 25 because it turned out she was RIGHT anyway, so does this mean should Ranka have asked Alto a week later after his best friend died??

Ranka haters: You and the Vajra are F'd up! Ranka is a stupid a traitor because she let herself get caught by Grace. Sheryl and Alto are the heroes! And most of all, she shouldn't have left!

*Bows* That is the end of my monologue. I resign myself from this conversation to bang my head on a desk. All this hate over a scene in an anime that had a happy ending for all characters (except Leon) sheesh.

Well said!!!!!!

And, the reaction from this forum lets me realize that Ranka's decision was indeed a hard one to make

I don't wanna bang my head on a desk so I will stop here...after all, I have said all I can say (or look at my signature if anyone really wanna know my response on this issue)

magnuskn · 2010-09-30, 14:25

@Irisiel: I'm sorry I cannot give you more cookies right now, because that were some more amazing contributions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mei19

*Bows* That is the end of my monologue. I resign myself from this conversation to bang my head on a desk. All this hate over a scene in an anime that had a happy ending for all characters (except Leon) sheesh.

I don't hate Ranka, I pity da fool. But the whole topic of responsibility comes up every once in a while, and I think it behooves me to point out how irresponsible Ranka was so many times. Because it seems to be a point which Ranka-shippers love to overlook or try to twist.

justinstrife · 2010-09-30, 19:48

@Irisiel: Very well said. It's a shame I have to spread my reputation points around before I can positively rep you again.

Ranka shppers, I'm sorry to say, do not understand what responsibility truly means. Or at the very least, are willing to let their favorite characters not take any responsibility for their actions. That's what I'm reading on this forum.

2010-09-29, 22:09	Link #762
justavisitor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Earth	after that scenes hugging with ai-kun (god knows what happened ) I think she can see that vajra may not be bad, but rather there is a misunderstanding between human and vajra...so the director gives her a new mission, a mission to find co-existence between Vajra and Human However, while her objective is great, human does also have emotion and it is very hard to convince Alto to join her...(this scene is open for many interpretations...personally I think she realizes that it will be a miracle to convince Alto to join her, but she still tries and sees what happen) it's actually like the gundam 00 movie: XD Spoiler for spoiler: Els killed many earthling, but Setsuna still wants to talk to them I think I understand her motive so my opinion of her stayed at the same high level __________________ Come and join Ranka Lee Fanclub !!! Join our club and you will see 1)Ranka pics 2)Ranka/Alto pic 3)Relatively Sane discussion about Ranka 4)amv for Ranka To all old and new Sheryl fans: I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet

2010-09-30, 01:23	Link #769
Westlo Lets be reality Join Date: May 2007	You people just don't get it, you're like people who fuck up at work and make a mistake and yet when the client accepts (sometimes because of no choice) said mistake act like there was no problem at all. No you f'd up. It doesn't matter if her singing stirred up the Varja, her reasons for not wanting to sing had nothing to do with that. She didn't want to sing and instead wanted to die because "OMH I THOUGHT ALTO CONFESSED TO ME BUT HE'S HUGGING SHERLY111!!!1! /wrist". You do realize if she hadn't of sung people still would've died, what exactly were Sheryl and Alto to do? Let her wallow in self pity not sing and let the Varja continue to slaughter people when as far as they known her singing would stop it? Ridiculous, her wanting to die over saving people showed her character for what it is, whereas later on Sheryl literally sings herself to death to protect Frontier. It doesn't matter if she was right in joining the varja, the only reason she went was because she thought she was doing the right thing and because of her memories and Ai-kun who she told nobody about. (Hey Ranka, when Alto went into your room.. that was like you know a good time!) Her going there ended up in her being brainwashed and used to power up the Varja who killed thousands of people. It doesn't matter if Alto joined the Varja side, that was a while after Michael's death and after it was revealed that Grace was behind it all. Ranka otoh wanted him to go right after it happened when the wound was still raw. Moronic to say the least and don't get me started on how stupid, unjustified and out of character her slap to Sheryl was. She made a lot of stupid choices and got covered by plot period Last edited by Westlo; 2010-09-30 at 03:06.

2010-09-29, 23:02	Link #764
Mei19 LOL'ing at t3h old bags Join Date: Oct 2008 Age: 35	^ Hahaha weak. In the end, Alto ended up JOINING the vajra that "Killed his Best Friend" in episode 25 XD I wonder why.

2010-09-30, 04:37	Link #771
Irisiel Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	Also, one of the problems that Ranka has, which is very apparent in the Vajra frenzy swarm concert, is that she focuses ONLY on Alto, but only when it comes to his possible feelings for her and Sheryl. She couldn't sing for Michael (Star Date and Fastest Delivery, anyone?), she couldn't sing for Nanase, she couldn't sing for Luca, she couldn't sing for Bobby (Macross Zero remake, anyone?) and she couldn't sing for Ozma. Those people? Have supported and protected her for years before Alto entered the picture. And that's not even going into Elmo and her Frontier fans. That's in direct contrast to Sheryl, who started to sing again, in the same battle, for Frontier's people (and the way that the scene played out made it seem like she sung for Nanase, Michael, Klan and Alto in particularly, in fact, in that order. Nanase from her taking Nanase to the shelter earlier, Michael from his death, Klan for losing Michael and Alto for losing Michael, even though she could not have any knowledge of this, it was pretty much how the scene played out in the show). Then she started to sing for charity, which was also for Frontier's people who lost Ranka. Then she sung in battle and nearly died singing. The fact that Ranka doesn't seem to have thought Alto's feelings for Michael being anything of consequence when it came to going to Vajra planet is bad (Really, she was right there when Alto screamed Michael's name and nearly followed Michael's body into space). It shows that she views his feelings in terms of "does he love me or Sheryl?" and not "did he love Michael? Does he like Klan, Nanase or anyone else who've been injured and/or killed?". (Of course, the fact that from before the series, Alto was estranged from his own family and therefore, the closest people we've been shown for him to have around are Michael and Luca, makes this a little bit worse from Alto's POV. Most official art also shows how close these three were, and with how Michael could butt in on Alto's life, and Alto in his, I wouldn't hesitate to say that they were as close as family by the time Michael was killed.) And that is the crucial crutch to Ranka's character. No, she wasn't right to run off to Vajra planet, do you know why? Because she left Frontier without protection. She left without sufficient protection. It resulted in her being brainwashed to sing a song that would quickly kill morale in Frontier's army, as well as making the Vajra kill millions of people and giving Grace control of Vajra Queen. The only reason why it wasn't worse? FRONTIER AND QUARTER stepped in and cleaned up her mess. The right decision would be to submit her observations and theories to the people she works for (as greedy as Leon was, he showed that he at least wanted Frontier to survive to be ruled over by him). Then they would maybe have tried to open up communication while having Ranka under sufficient protection that she can't be used against them. Or at the very least devised a plan of attack/defence that would be useful. But once again, Ranka only thinks about what would directly affect her and the ones she's caring about for the moment (Brera and Ai-kun). She can't sit down and think "okay, so I leave to return Ai-kun. What will happen to Frontier?". Or even in the ending "okay, so I ran away from Frontier weeks ago, what kind of development has Alto and Sheryl had in their relationship?". In fact, on the romance front, that scene is awful. We have Alto achieving his Dream with a big D, and Sheryl being happy for him. Ranka... looks sad. She isn't even looking at Alto, doesn't even feel a tiny twinge of "it's so great that you finally got your dream!". It shows a blindness for Alto's feelings. Which is emphasised when she challenges Sheryl for his heart. It never occurs to her that the Alto and Sheryl she left on Frontier now are different people. The fact that Alto has grown into protecting the whole of Frontier (really, am I the only one who sees at least a minuscule of his feelings for Michael in his "Is this your love?" scene? He's talking to Klan after Michael is dead about the complications of protecting everything he cares for). The fact that Sheryl has almost completely discarded her selfishness. They can't just return to the triangle. Everything except Ranka's mental state have changed. Alto and Sheryl are the saviours of Frontier. They live together. Ranka is a traitor who killed thousands (killing someone in your sleep might be forgiveable in some circumstances if it's only one person, but by now the Frontier fleet, and any one else who lost those dear to them, should be out for blood. Even if each and everyone of those thousands only knew one person each, and that person's anguish doesn't affect anyone else, there's still thousands of survivors who would still be coping with the consequences of her actions). We're talking about Ranka being transferred into protective custody, hidden from the world, while Alto and Sheryl will be pushed forth, front, right and centre. How is Ranka supposed to compete with Sheryl in love or songs? A person who yet haven't developed the empathy to see the consequences of their actions have no business in a romantic relationship. Fact is, Alto has his sky. Fact is, Sheryl is happy he has his sky. Fact is, Ranka is sad that Sheryl is happy for Alto, never sparing a smile for Alto's sky. Even if Alto doesn't choose any one of them, Sheryl would still be the one closest to him simply because she's able to find happiness in his happiness. Likewise, he was always adamant about supporting her dreams by actively pushing her forward, and then becoming a pillar for her to lean on. Oh, and Alto will return the earring. And finish his conversation from the make up room. One day I'll write a complete and more coherent essay on this. But it will probably be after the movies as I want to compare and contrast.

2010-09-30, 08:02	Link #774
Irisiel Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	The "Is that your love" scene only makes sense to me if one is literally talking about Alto's ability to love instead of an object of his affection. I think that scene, prompted by Michael's death, Nanase's coma, Ranka's desertion and Sheryl's impeding death is something like this: Alto loves a lot. He loves Sheryl, Ranka, Michael, Luca, Klan, Ozma, Nanase, Bobby, Ranzou, Yasaburo, the valkyries, his kabuki and everything else. He's just too tsundere to admit it most of the time. And he has put himself in a position to defend the things he loves. Ranka, however, is a large burden for him to carry on protecting. Not only do she keep secrets from him which would aid in her protection, but she then runs off, effectively being a lamb running into a pack of wolves who have the sheep surrounded. What is the sheepdog to do? If he abandons the herd, he cannot protect them. Alto loves, and he has seen the things he loves be destroyed. He loves two women at the brink of death (Sheryl and Nanase, coma is actually serious stuff), fighting an enemy he cannot fight. But he also loves a girl who is in the clutches of enemies that he can fight, but wont, because it would jeopardise everything else that he loves. Which is one of the reasons why it breaks Klan's heart. The fact that Alto loves so much, but is essentially powerless to protect what he loves, because now, the people he loves all are on opposing sides (remember that even though he's content with protecting Frontier, he still flips out when Quarter splits. This is also why he's so torn when Ozma tries to make him pick sides. He loves them all, but if he stays with Frontier, he must attack Ozma and Ranka for the future of Frontier. If he went with Ranka, he would have to attack Frontier. If he went with Ozma, he would have no idea what would happen, who he would have to attack and protect). Basically, Alto loves a lot, and shows it by protecting. He does not scream out declarations (except at mortal peril, like with Michael and Sheryl). It is only towards the end that he verbalises this love, first to Klan, and then he tries to talk to Sheryl, who stops him, because she misunderstood his conversation with Klan. When Ranzou watches the battle, he states "This is your love, huh?" with a smile. Ranzou is the same as Alto, and is content that even though they misunderstand and disagree with each other, they still love. Father and son, two stubborn blockheads who love a lot, but tries to hide that love. I really cannot interpret the Klan and Alto scene any other way, because then Ranzou's scene would make no sense. It would also fit with Alto's realisation that this war is for real. Earlier, all he felt was anger, frustration and desperation, which he lashed out at Vajra. Then, during Sheryl's charity concert, we watch as he, mellow and sad, instead of righteously angry, discover the destruction Vajra brought to something [Frontier] that he loves. What kind and magnitude of love he feels towards individuals are up for grabs, but I believe that the Klan-Ranzou statement is a way for creators to say that yes, Alto really does care a lot, even when he hides behind a thorny mask.

2010-09-30, 12:05	Link #775
Mei19 LOL'ing at t3h old bags Join Date: Oct 2008 Age: 35	This conversation has inspired me to do a monologue. It's not much but please enjoy. Me: Nooo Ranka left because she knew that the Vajra isn't what Frontier thinks it is. She left to find the truth and found out that Galaxy was making Frontier and Vajra fight resulting in deaths and more deaths! Ranka haters: Yeah? Well it was stupid of her to leave because Frontier was defenseless. She should've stayed and sang anyway. Lots died! And she shouldn't have asked Alto to come to Vajra land right after his best friend died. That was insensitive of her! Me: Even if she stayed in Frontier noone will believe her because everyone was blinded by hatred, like I saidddd, she wanted to find the truth and wanted Alto in on it. This was the best thing she could come up with to stop the chain of killing altogether. It was better than singing for Frontier and killing more vajra, and igniting more hate. It will never end. Alto accepted the Vajra in 25 because it turned out she was RIGHT anyway, so does this mean should Ranka have asked Alto a week later after his best friend died?? Ranka haters: You and the Vajra are F'd up! Ranka is a stupid a traitor because she let herself get caught by Grace. Sheryl and Alto are the heroes! And most of all, she shouldn't have left! Bows That is the end of my monologue. I resign myself from this conversation to bang my head on a desk. All this hate over a scene in an anime that had a happy ending for all characters (except Leon) sheesh.

2010-09-30, 19:48	Link #780
justinstrife Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Galt's Gulch Age: 44	@Irisiel: Very well said. It's a shame I have to spread my reputation points around before I can positively rep you again. Ranka shppers, I'm sorry to say, do not understand what responsibility truly means. Or at the very least, are willing to let their favorite characters not take any responsibility for their actions. That's what I'm reading on this forum.