2009-09-27, 14:21 | Link #5621 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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that was NOT his problem
this was not about the rest of the world, or the fate of japan this was about 1 thing only EUPHIE was STANDING in his WAY
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2009-09-27, 14:59 | Link #5622 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Also, it's questionable if Suzaku would be able to do anything else if he tried to stay in the military. Quote:
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Euphemia was going to shaft millions of Britannians in the short term, and the world in the longterm for her own sake. Lelouch was going to shaft her (no, not like that) for his own sake. At this point I think it falls to what each of us believes was the percentage of Lelouch's motivation for sabotaging the SAZ. That is, what percent of it was for his revenge and what percent was because he believed it was best for the people, as well as how one regards intention vs. result. After he agreed to help her, he casually said he would amend his plans to include the SAZ. He didn't need to ruin it to reach his goal. He needed to ruin it to reach his goal quicker. To stop the killing quicker, and he does care that people who aren't Nunally die when they are killed. |
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2009-09-27, 15:09 | Link #5623 | |||||
Um-Shmum
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Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
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she wants to help the japanese people and lelouch would have made her a monster to them in what world would she have felt like a hero for such a thing ? Quote:
he needed a causus belli the SAZ would have canceled that Quote:
the elevens would have had it better the britannians would have had it better because they wouldnt be at war with the black knights anymore and if it works well, it could inspire similer SAZ's in other areas it wouldnt make britannia go away, but it would improve the lives of those living under their rule considerably Quote:
and -2% that its not good for the world but thats just me Quote:
he said that he wouldnt be taking orders from her once the SAZ was active, the black knights as a military forces would be gone but zero has a LOT of power with the japanese people accepting euphie's offer would have in effect put an end to his quest for revenge at least as zero
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2009-09-27, 16:41 | Link #5624 | ||||
Spinning Lotus
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2009-09-27, 17:07 | Link #5625 | ||||
Um-Shmum
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Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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he would have destoryed her, and everything she stands for Quote:
it might have been motivation for characters who actually care about japan and its people but not for lelouch Quote:
its a step up, and with euphie at the helm, its not likely to go away as soon as you seem to think it would Quote:
again, lelouch is not in this for a better world lelouch is in this for revenge and the destraction of britannia the world that would result from such destraction may turn out better but thats not what lelouch is after
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2009-09-27, 17:15 | Link #5626 | ||||
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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She would hardly be a monster to the world, at least anymore than the rest of her family. Clovis and Cornelia started massacres, while she would be seen as someone who lured Zero out with peace rather than war and then only went after HIM. I'm not saying she would feel like a hero at all, just that Lelouch's likely course of action wouldn't have devastated her to the point you seem to think it would. *Cough*ComfortZaku*Cough* She herself admitted her reasons were selfish, so she wasn't much better than Lelouch as far as motive goes. Quote:
Terrorism would be discredited, not wiped out. Cornelia would do that, but it would probably crop up again if/when she left. Similar establishements around the other Areas are very unlikely. Reforms work best when there is a need for them, and even then all change is "rocking the boat" to someone. Euphemia giving up her title seperated her from the rest of Britannia in showing that this was HER idea, not Britannia's. Unless terrorism got alot worse in the other Areas, then the other Viceroys didn't have much reason or incentive to implement such things, and Schneizel pushing it would make him dangerously unpopular. Simply put, Britannians would want to remind the Japanese outside of the SAZ that they were still Elevens, and the Japanese would want to "remind" the Britannians that Zero scared their government into the SAZ. When two such groups meet, things wouldn't end very well. Quote:
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2009-09-27, 17:23 | Link #5627 | |||
Um-Shmum
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he'd also make ulterations to her memory and (as a consequence) personality so that she would be fit better into his chain of events that would be beyond evil Quote:
and the japanese wanting to remind the britannians that they are not so toothless anymore the SAZ was an attempt to defuse the situation before it explodes and it did with the black rebellion, in large part BECAUSE of the failure of the SAZ Quote:
not for his desire of a better world
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2009-09-27, 17:27 | Link #5628 |
Puppet Master
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
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Lelouch never really gave a shit about Japan or the world. Even Nunnaly was simply his excuse for his evil deeds. He never really knew what she wanted until after she told him herself.
I think that being as smart as he was he sometimes thought too much and didn't see the obvious. For example, he thinks that his mother was this caring woman when in fact she was a ruthless bitch; he launches this rebellion to avenge her and sacrifices a ton of lives, including those of people who loved him...all based on basically lies and misconceptions. He thinks of his siblings as if they were monsters when in fact they all pretty much loved him and Nunnaly. Early on he mentions that his mother's murder and their subsequent exile is a result of their half-commoner blood; he even suspects Cornelia of the murders. However in the series none of the royal family except for that Carline or w/e seemed to have any ill feelings towards them. Everybody seemed to talk highly of Marianne, they admired and respected her. Lelouch was just an asshole, which I assume he got from his mother lol.
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2009-09-27, 17:35 | Link #5629 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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he's not JUST an ass-hole
he was only an ass-hole when he focused on himself and nothing else when he stops focusing just on himself, and looks at the world around him, he has potential to do a great deal of good which is why the ending and zero-requiem is such a slap in the face he may SAY that he is doing this to make the world a better place but his choice of method is explicitly stated as a path that HE chooses out of several other ways for dealing with shnizel lelouch isnt doing zero-requiem to save the world from shnizel he's doing it because its what he WANTS to do, and is unwilling to consider other ways to do it because its all about him in the end which makes him more akin to shnizel and charles then he SHOULD have been
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2009-09-27, 17:53 | Link #5630 | |
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2009-09-27, 18:11 | Link #5631 | |
Birth by Moonlight
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And seriously, after that twist where his mother was actually conspiring with his father, it's like a slap to the face that everything he has done from the beginning was all for naught. Very disappointing.
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2009-09-27, 18:22 | Link #5632 | |
Um-Shmum
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he never cared japan was where he was, so japan was where he'd start lelouch wasnt fighting to free japan, he was highjacking the japanese independence cause as a way to build himself an army
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2009-09-27, 19:03 | Link #5633 | ||||||
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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She was both, so stop trying to edge out the latter.
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2009-09-27, 19:16 | Link #5634 | |||||||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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because its all about him, right ? the 100,000,000 japanese people living under severe oppression were a minor detail Quote:
what bothers you is that she wasnt trying to destory britannia, which lelouch viewed as the only valid option Quote:
or the fact that Cornelia would have backed her up in the face of any opposition on her dream as would shnizel, if it proved effective Quote:
i'm trying to make him out as a selfish man with delusions of grandeur and a huge chip on his shoulder who drops the fate of an entire nation down the drain the moment his little sister is placed at any kind of risk because THATS what he is when you get right down to it at least in season 1 Quote:
that aside from ordering her to shoot him, he would also change some of her memories and there by change her i was commenting on that version Quote:
charles ? charles doesnt care about anything, and shnizel does whats effective and if its effective to give the japanese people some of their rights back, then thats what he'd do Quote:
step two, with britannia gone, the world is a better place step three, nunnaly gets to live in a better world lelouch was not going to use geass to convince everyone to start recycling or stop whale hunting lelouch's method of improving the world was one single aspect at all times the one that ties in with his revenge
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2009-09-27, 19:44 | Link #5635 | |||||||
Spinning Lotus
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2009-09-27, 20:01 | Link #5636 | |||||||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
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her very first ep has her requesting that suzaku take her to see the damage done in shinjiku, and has her slapping a britannian tourist for being rude to suzaku because of his origin the SAZ was the culmination of her resolve to improve things Quote:
lelouch was just as narrow minded as euphie was if not more so you say he was looking big picture, but i say he was looking at a very small, wheel chair bound picture euphie takes an active interest in the plight of the japanese people long before she knows lelouch is alive Quote:
thats why she has darlton aid her in it Quote:
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the man has never shown any interest in oppressing people quite the opposite really Quote:
he wants to destroy britannia thats what he WANTS the rest of the world is just details he has to deal with on the way the man pulls a coup and overthrows the government of the largest nation on earth just as a step along the way to take down britannia
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2009-09-27, 20:15 | Link #5637 |
Puppet Master
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
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You can't expect change immediately, which is something I see around me these days. People expect drastic changes RIGHT NOW. The only way to do that is to completely bring down the system, and that has consequences of its own.
Destroying Britannia might have been the faster route but it wasn't the only way, nor was it the RIGHT way to change. It took over a century for America to overcome segregation... You gotta be optimistic and hope for the best. The SAZ may not have been much, but it was something. You can't just expect them to say "here's Japan back, we're outta here". That's not realistic, but a second Special Zone if the first one proved successful isn't so fetched. It could start out as just one zone and then after a couple of years the entire area could be one giant special zone. If everybody gets equal rights who really cares if where they live isn't called Japan but Area 11 when they have all the basic rights, standard of living etc as the guy living in the mainland? A nation is simply a name, what people really care about is their well being, their happyness and the hope of a better future. As long as you have food to put on your plate, clothes to keep you warm, a roof to sleep under, and the opportunity to better yourself you couldn't care less where you live.
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2009-09-27, 20:20 | Link #5638 | ||||||
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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On the second part, stop oversimplifying. It's getting old. He always had the big picture in mind. Nunnally's just the motivation, his goals included the entire world. Quote:
But it does mean it's not entirely accurate. It's like calling every feline species a feline and leaving it at that. Quote:
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2009-09-27, 20:32 | Link #5639 | |||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
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it can easily contain a few million people and its the FIRST STEP if the only problem with this set up is that it lacks space, they would simply expend it if it works, you run with it why wouldnt they they already let the numbers administer themselves and mount fuji IS the place were the sakuradite mines are placed other then the tokyo settelment, there is no reason why they wouldnt expend the SAZ in size Quote:
the entire point of the damocles was not to oppress he doesnt seek to rule he seeks to police to keep people from fighting Quote:
he is making an effort to get all the countries in the UFN to GIVE HIM THEIR ARMIES the entire point of the UFN was to give him the military power required to take on britannia
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2009-09-27, 22:05 | Link #5640 | ||
Spinning Lotus
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And to make those countries better off. He could have bribed the Eunuchs to help him, but decided to do it the way that would leave China better off. The UFN didn't just give him an army, so for the last time stop oversimplifying on these things. He can do more than one thing at once.
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