[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by sacul097

Well what about Jessica? She's the same age as battler but I don't think her birthday was ever stated. She could be turning nineteen.

Well first off she'd have to be born in fall (at least) if that's the case and she deliberately said that nobody's birthday she knows of in her family or of the servants was around that time.

Also Battler's narration in Episode 1 says she's born under the same unlucky star as Battler. If you take that literally it means they're horoscopes are both cancer, which limits her birthday to June-July. But you don't have to take that one seriously if you don't want to because we don't know if that's what being "born under a star" means.

[Ronove]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Zepar and Furfur said that 19 was an important number but it's Shannon and kanon that explain why

the fabled "19th person"
19 is the age of the true lord of Beatrice's world.
19 are the years needed to create this story


not too many things if you ask me, I think there's more stuff that is "6" or "9".

Who is the 'true lord' of Beatrice's world? Does this mean that person is 19 years-old? It can't be Kinzo
Also, the third item, what does that mean as well?

P.S. - Does anyone understand the Egg-Beato being immune to Western Magic or something along with Older Beato not being immune? Does this contain any hints to this tale whatsoever? Discuss. :E

[UsagiTenpura]

I might be wrong about this but...
I think Shannon didn't began to work on Rokkenjima at the age of six, rather the first time she went there she was six (Battler calls her a maid's stepdaughter at some point).

If anything, if she was 16, six years ago she'd have been 10. George would've been 17, and jealous of her having fun with 12 years old Battler. That seems hard to swallow. I know George is often pictured negatively but I'd rather not think he'd a pedo or something like that.

Actually, even Kanon's age was never confirmed by himself. Both Shannon and Kanon's ages are really guesses in a way. Battler's birth circumstance makes it so you cannot claim with certainty his age, similar to Jessica.

Outside of Shkanon, it's hard to believe Kanon could be 19 tho, nontheless it leaves us 3 candidates.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by Ronove

Who is the 'true lord' of Beatrice's world? Does this mean that person is 19 years-old? It can't be Kinzo
Also, the third item, what does that mean as well?

P.S. - Does anyone understand the Egg-Beato being immune to Western Magic or something along with Older Beato not being immune? Does this contain any hints to this tale whatsoever? Discuss. :E

"It took 19 years to write this tale. 19 years for this inevitable day to come."

In other words, this day was depicted long before its began. Someone from 19 years ago wrote a story depicting this day and someone from around that time planned its events. The territory lord who are they are referring to is Beatrice, if I can guess she's about 19 years old (appearance- wise and considering how long live she lived during any of her human years which is quite a guess).

As for Egg- Beato, she's is a physical apparition of Beatrice and is seperated from the stories that surround Rokkenjima, so she is affected by spiderwebs and the like. Older Beato, on the other hand, are the legends of Rokkenjima combined with the story of Beatrice, so she has traits regarding those stories.

[chronotrig]

Well, if Shkanon is true, then she's already dressing up and playing a part just to look like Shannon. So, it'd be no surprise if her age was also a lie. In fact, you'd want her to be called younger than she really is, so that she'll be more experienced than she really looks and better able to pull off the disguise.
At any rate, the disguise wouldn't be a big one when she first started. Maybe the hair and a less mischievous personality. Maybe a little moe clumsiness added in. Other than that, she'd just have to do her job and not get caught when Kinzo asked her to pull those pranks Kanon talked about.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, if Shkanon is true, then she's already dressing up and playing a part just to look like Shannon. So, it'd be no surprise if her age was also a lie.

Thats the thing, she never even confirmed her own age. There can't be a "lie" in unsaid information.

Unrelated, but my attempt at explaining the rules for now.
X - All apparent noise/luck/bad luck is controlled by the gamemaster.
Y - All things left unexplained by humans on the board is blamed on the witch.
Z - The truth can be endlessly rewritten as long as it doesn't contradict a perfectly established fact (such as red).

You'd notice that X is ultimately twisting a bit further a general rule of literature. No stories are ever truly based on chance.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Zepar and Furfur said that 19 was an important number but it's Shannon and kanon that explain why

the fabled "19th person"
19 is the age of the true lord of Beatrice's world.
19 are the years needed to create this story


not too many things if you ask me, I think there's more stuff that is "6" or "9".

You forgot a couple.

There are "19 bullies" that Maria refers to in her motif about why you need bullied kids.

And of course 19th person X was an original speculation of Battler's.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

You'd notice that X is ultimately twisting a bit further a general rule of literature. No stories are ever truly based on chance.

I still think Rule X is based off of Higurashi's rule Y which is the murders and the disaster. It explains why Bernkastel will certainly never win because (just about) everyone is certainly dead at the end and it's supposed be like the story that starts on June 20th which is Higurashi. Plus we get a red in the end rolls saying when the seagulls cry there are no survivors twice in game 2 and 6! It should be obvious by now that this is a rule.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

You forgot a couple.

There are "19 bullies" that Maria refers to in her motif about why you need bullied kids.

And of course 19th person X was an original speculation of Battler's.

Hmm, just the word "19th person" takes on a new meaning with Shkanontrice. After all, you only get 18 people if you accidentally count furniture anyways, but fail to count Beatrice. Kinzo counts as furniture until his secret is discovered. So, saying "there are 19 people" is always at least slightly more accurate than saying "there are 18 people".

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Zepar and Furfur said that 19 was an important number but it's Shannon and kanon that explain why

the fabled "19th person"
19 is the age of the true lord of Beatrice's world.
19 are the years needed to create this story

19 years ago is also when Beatrice-2 died and the rumor that she was haunting the island trying to regain her body started.

19 is the age of the true lord of Beatrice's world.
19 are the years needed to create this story.

I rest my case~

[Judoh]

Technically if 1987 is the 19th year the story doesn't start until the message bottles appear then. Especially since I'm almost certain a certain amount of months would have to have passed until the Police admitted they found one of those bottles.

EDIT: 1998 - 1986 = 12 years since the disaster + 6 years of the sin = 18. Just barely doesn't make it.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I still think Rule X is based off of Higurashi's rule Y which is the murders and the disaster. It explains why Bernkastel will certainly never win because (just about) everyone is certainly dead at the end and it's supposed be like the story that starts on June 20th which is Higurashi. Plus we get a red in the end rolls saying when the seagulls cry there are no survivors twice in game 2 and 6! It should be obvious by now that this is a rule.

Guess that's a matter of opinion. In arc 1's very end they sorta say clearly that there's a rule about time running out. Even in arc 5 when Battler figures out the truth he check the time and it's midnight on the second day and he says "don't put something like a time limit on your riddle". So I just think it's that, a time limit, not an inherent rule. It goes without a say, for instance, that a "game" about June 1983 is limited to June 1983.

I don't believe such a thing as time limit would be rule X. The Hinamizawa disaster, in comparison, wasn't something Rika was aware of until the very final arc. It might've been part of rule Y but it wasn't necessarily so. The murders in umineko are also far too random/inconsistent to fit with Higurashi's rule Y (they are far closer to rule X murders). You'd have to find an extremly valid reason for every single murder that occurs on the gameboard. For instance why is it that Beato's plan couldn't work without Gohda slaughtered. Rather, why was it a crucial part of her plan. The Higurashi rule Y's only real parallel in Umineko is the island blowing up. It feels like it doesn't explain enough phenomenon to really be a rule.

Remember that in Higurashi, the Hinamizawa disaster was in many ways the goal. If blowing up Rokkenjima was the goal, not a single murder was necessary, certainly not the magic show and all.

[Judoh]

I might be wrong, but I've been set on that as the obvious answer Rule X is supposed to be since a long time. I also don't think Rule X being closer to Higurashi's rule X makes sense because the murders are not happening for no reason or because of a mental breakdown. They clearly have a motive and are not just a random occurrence. And don't say there wasn't a motive to kill Rika and Tomitake because there definitely was and I'll call you on it.

[Qaenyin]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

the wikia site is not a reliable source of informations.

however



Considering that Battler's official birth status is a lie, that level of certainty about Battler's real age you show is not really justified.

I don't mean to say that Battler is 19 years old. Personally I don't believe it, but a "period" on this issue cannot be placed.

Alright, point taken. Oversight on my part(haven't played Ep1 in like a year).

That aside, Battler's age is somewhat irrelevant, although if he is, in fact, 18, that does rule him out of being Natsuhi's charge(which limits who his real mother could be). He can't be Beato's child since Beato-2 died in 1967 theoretically, which means he's presumably Kyrie's. Although that's probably not relevant to any existing point since as far as I know no one except Rudolf and MAYBE Kinzo would even be aware of this since Asumu is dead, and as such no one would care, unless something happened to Asumu's kid and it wasn't just that Asumu had the miscarriage and stole Kyrie's child to replace her lost one.

My point still stands: Whoever is Beatrice or represents Beatrice presumably is no younger than 19, plausibly exactly 19 but not necessarily(they could be older).

That reminds me. I've always found it odd that both Natsuhi's "Baby and servant" pair and Rosa's "Beatrice" died in the same year by falling off a cliff(Also 19 years ago). I don't think that's coincidental although it may also be irrelevant in the greater scheme of things.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I might be wrong, but I've been set on that as the obvious answer Rule X is supposed to be since a long time. I also don't think Rule X being closer to Higurashi's rule X makes sense because the murders are not happening for no reason or because of a mental breakdown. They clearly have a motive and are not just a random occurrence. And don't say there wasn't a motive to kill Rika and Tomitake because there definitely was and I'll call you on it.

Spoiler for Higurashi:

I don't think rule X is similar to Higurashi's rule X. I think the murders are closer to Higurashi's rule X then rule Y. I don't think however, that the murders are really comparable. They aren't due to a mental illness and aren't either something as precise as and strong willed as Takano's murders. To show the difference.

Rika needed to be killed for the Hinamizawa disaster. Any other obstacle in doing so needed to be killed for the Hinamizawa disaster.

Beato doesn't need to kill anyone for the Rokkenjima explosion to occur. If there was no letter, murders, etc, it still could've (and probably would've) occured.

As thus the murders aren't comparable to Higurashi rule Y murder.

[Renall]

A question... and this may be strange, but...

...is there any evidence of a date, ever, anywhere, other than the 1967 date in red?

Is this story really set in 1986? Does Ange really exist in 1998? What year are we in when we examine the game board? What year is the current "writer" of the later message bottle stories living in? What year were the message bottles written? Were they ever actually found, or is that part of the story too?

Well, I mean it's obviously "part of the story," but at some point we have to question even the layers of meta-fiction with ep6 opening the door to it.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I might be wrong, but I've been set on that as the obvious answer Rule X is supposed to be since a long time. I also don't think Rule X being closer to Higurashi's rule X makes sense because the murders are not happening for no reason or because of a mental breakdown. They clearly have a motive and are not just a random occurrence. And don't say there wasn't a motive to kill Rika and Tomitake because there definitely was and I'll call you on it.

Just to add some more things for UsagiTempura...

Not only the stuff you mentioned, but I thought Bernkastel tells us directly what Rule X is in her letter. The 'Heart' or 'Core' (心臓部) of Beatrice. So, it seems before that the bomb was compared to her heart in EP3 when Eva couldn't 'destroy' it before she ran away...
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/TIPS/Bernkastel's_Letter

I think her saying that it's like Higurashi's story (or that 'story that starts 06/20) is more about the end where everyone gets wiped out and the truth can't be known...

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

A question... and this may be strange, but...

...is there any evidence of a date, ever, anywhere, other than the 1967 date in red?

Is this story really set in 1986? Does Ange really exist in 1998? What year are we in when we examine the game board? What year is the current "writer" of the later message bottle stories living in? What year were the message bottles written? Were they ever actually found, or is that part of the story too?

Well, I mean it's obviously "part of the story," but at some point we have to question even the layers of meta-fiction with ep6 opening the door to it.

I believe that's actually the biggest question in the entire game. "When" is the present. For all we know it could be that this is all Ange writing this in 1999, when she'd be 19. Tho probably just cause I want a good ending (and arc 6's future made no sense too) I'd rather believe the present is before everyone dies.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Renall

A question... and this may be strange, but...

...is there any evidence of a date, ever, anywhere, other than the 1967 date in red?

Is this story really set in 1986? Does Ange really exist in 1998? What year are we in when we examine the game board? What year is the current "writer" of the later message bottle stories living in? What year were the message bottles written? Were they ever actually found, or is that part of the story too?

Well, I mean it's obviously "part of the story," but at some point we have to question even the layers of meta-fiction with ep6 opening the door to it.

I'm pretty sure Battler acknowledges the year as 1986. Regardless of how incompetent he is, I doubt he can be so stupid as to forget what year he's living in.
That said, 1998 is completely up in the air. There's no evidence to support Ange's narration as honest.
Opinion-wise, I find it silly to doubt it though. It makes things too loose. As shaky as the evidence for it is, it offers some stability for me, so I don't doubt it.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

A question... and this may be strange, but...

...is there any evidence of a date, ever, anywhere, other than the 1967 date in red?

Is this story really set in 1986? Does Ange really exist in 1998? What year are we in when we examine the game board? What year is the current "writer" of the later message bottle stories living in? What year were the message bottles written? Were they ever actually found, or is that part of the story too?

Well, I mean it's obviously "part of the story," but at some point we have to question even the layers of meta-fiction with ep6 opening the door to it.

Battler acknowledges it as such

And, I also can't deny the existence of the Beatrice in this place. The number of people on this island outside the game board... in other words, before October 4 1986, has not been proclaimed in red. Therefore, there's nothing strange about Beatrice existing here.

Anyway Battler was capable of replacing "this child" with "Beato" in red with his narration so I'd say that considering that the present year should be pretty solid and he probably could say this in red if he had to. I don't think we should doubt things central to the story unless we have a very good reason to doubt them. And I see no reason to doubt that the murders happened in 1986. It's one of those it's just assumed things that don't ever get changed.