Are shoujo manga/anime really anti-feminist

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Asf

Yeah, I see this in Japanese women's erotic cell-phone manga.
Ran into one the other day about a woman who's shipwrecked on an island with a group of men and is forced to serve them sexually to survive. Saw some website celebrating 100,000 copies sold; might have been the author's site, can't remember now.

Actually, this discussion made me curious enough to seek out a copy of My Secret Garden. I've read about 20 of the fantasies listed in there now, and a fair number of them detail rape (or otherwise forced sex, unexpected sex) scenarios. A number of the women clarify that they would not want to be raped in real life, but that in the context of the fantasy, it is very appealing to them.

That also goes back to what I initially posted about. In the context of fantasy is very different from reality. Just as I wouldn't want my wife to behave like some anime characters whose behavior seems appealing in a show, a visualization of a woman's fantasy doesn't necessarily mean that she wants that fantasy within the context of reality.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

You can try this for yourself, too. You can do this with any series you like, but have you seen Clannad? A lot of the characters there are eccentric, but within the context of the series, it is cute and even endearing. Having said that, does that mean we can say that those of us who feel similarly are attracted to girls with socialization issues and odd behaviors? I don't think so. Imagine if someone in real life behaved the way that any one of those characters did - it would come off as extremely weird, possibly even annoying, and overall off-putting. (I'm sure there are some who actually would disagree and feel that their ideal woman would behave that way, but I'd wager that they're in the minority.)

Yeah, I'm always amused when anti-moe crusaders claim that moe fans consider such girls their ideal and this is evidence of utter depravity... that's pretty far removed from my experience, and my observations of other fans doesn't suggest anything along that line either.

Actually, as a VN player - both eroge and otherwise - I'm quite used to coming to enjoy romantic encounters in such games with girls I wouldn't typically go for by now. I named one of my PCs after a VN character who I disliked through some of the early parts of the game because the relationship between her and the player character was so effective in the game, and a USB hard drive after her pet hamster.

Originally Posted by Asf

Yeah, I see this in Japanese women's erotic cell-phone manga.
Ran into one the other day about a woman who's shipwrecked on an island with a group of men and is forced to serve them sexually to survive. Saw some website celebrating 100,000 copies sold; might have been the author's site, can't remember now.
I always wonder if censorship groups like Equality Now want to imprison hundreds of thousands of Japanese women for owning these, heh.


I kinda half-commented on this already about the moaning part, but: none of that indicates pain in Japanese fiction/acting. The "whining" is sounds of pleasure, and tears and grimacing means "straining against overwhelming pleasure."

The concept of grimacing in pleasure is well-accepted for men in American porn, but women are expected to only be smiling or doing some kind "oh yeah" lust face. So there's culture shock for people who aren't used to the idea of women grimacing in pleasure.

While looking into this a bit, I ran into this article:
"Distinguishing expression of pleasure from grimace of pain can be difficult"
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/...100149667.html

Yeah... I think it can be said that woman in Japanese porn often come across as not particularly in control of their emotions during sex, but quite a bit of ero-stuff I've encountered involves tears, grimacing or moans without implying lack of enjoyment or consent - at least to me.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Actually, this discussion made me curious enough to seek out a copy of My Secret Garden. I've read about 20 of the fantasies listed in there now, and a fair number of them detail rape (or otherwise forced sex, unexpected sex) scenarios. A number of the women clarify that they would not want to be raped in real life, but that in the context of the fantasy, it is very appealing to them.

So guys fantasize about raping women. And women fantasize about being raped...

I don't really know what to say

Maybe we're just wired that way...

[Ithekro]

My understanding of the notion (which is likely flawed) is the idea of being wanted (to the point that the guy will go anything to have her, including rape). While the play "Jekyll and Hyde" is quite moving, I have not understood the female desire to have Mr. Hyde. The closest I can come up with is that he represents a primal desire over Dr. Jekyll's more traditional lifestyle (for Victorian days at least). But also I think some of it cames from a desire to "change him", to fix him somehow so he's not evil, but still plays evil in the bedroom. Somehow I get a similar impression from most films were the man that is after the woman is basically evil. Sexy evil, but still evil. Even if it is the misunderstood form....such as Phantom of the Opera.

I don't know if this is a common thing with women. Or if it is just something primal, such as "the evil guy with power can provide for me, even if he is evil". I'm attempting to find a logical reason for it, since there would be no rational reason possible.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

My understanding of the notion (which is likely flawed) is the idea of being wanted (to the point that the guy will go anything to have her, including rape).

Actually, that is exactly what is mentioned in many of these fantasies about rape. It's the idea that the woman is so attractive that the man can't control himself. However, I'll say again that this is all in the context of fantasy. Even though the idea is that the woman is not in control, the fact is that it is her fantasy; she is ultimately in control of the scenario as it plays out in her mind. If a rape were to actually occur, I would imagine that most of the women fantasizing about rape would not find it to be an enjoyable experience.

There's a big difference between fantasy and reality.

I must say, this is a really interesting book, though. I was surprised by how many of the fantasies that were written are things that I've heard of before, on the male side of sexual fantasy. It's interesting to get the other side's take on it. Of course, it's worth remembering that these fantasies are written in by individuals, and don't necessarily speak for all (or even most) women. Just figured I'd mention that in case some guys now have the idea that all women are fantasizing about having someone force sex upon them...

[retardation]

chiibi has read more shojo than most people so she has a better idea about the majority of it that's made.

i haven't read a shoujo manga but i do watch some of the shoujo anime that comes out... lemme go through and see how anti-feminist they are...

fruits basket - i think the main character was pretty strong but she takes a lot of unnecessary abuse, which she fights with kindness. i'm on the fence.

kimi no todoke - can't think of anything anti-feminist other than the fact the boy helps the main character come out of her shell, like she can't do it by herself

nodame - main male character is a huge jerk - i know someone tried to break this down but i say it's antifeminist - +1

bokura ga ita - nice girl tames douchey playboy... +1

ouran high school host club - strong female character and dork male lead. i guess the guys are rich but i don't put any meaning to it.

ituzara no kiss - this is the textbook example of what they are talking about in this thread +1

kaichou wa maid sama - i'd say yes to this one. strong female character wants to get dominated by an even stronger guy +1

lovely complex - female character is a dummy but so is the male character.

paradise kiss - doesn't get married at the end but she lives a dull life and some fashion designer comes and sexes her and turns her world around. a story about a girl who needs some guy to tell her how to live life +1

peach girl - don't know what to make of this one - i'll leave it alone

toradora - i'd say this is not that offensive

Aishiteruze Baby - pretty unoffensive too

that small sample tallies to 5/12 not bad

[djmaca]

Originally Posted by retardation

kaichou wa maid sama - i'd say yes to this one. strong female character wants to get dominated by an even stronger guy +1

Hates, mind you. And the guy clearly express he genuinely likes her. Dominated? So teasing the girl you like is now domination?

I say Maid-sama is feminist, since Misaki is on even footing with Usui and only a couple of other characters can match them in terms of awesomeness.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

It's the idea that the woman is so attractive that the man can't control himself.

OHHHHH so, THAT'S why!!

It's flattery to them?

That's.......weird. XD I can't get on board with that. Why would anyone want to be treated with as much respect as a sex toy just because she's "so beautiful"....wtf...no.

But thanks, that's a question I'd been pondering for a long long LONG time! (why rape is such a popular fantasy)

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

OHHHHH so, THAT'S why!!

It's flattery to them?

That's.......weird. XD I can't get on board with that. Why would anyone want to be treated with as much respect as a sex toy just because she's "so beautiful"....wtf...no.

But thanks, that's a question I'd been pondering for a long long LONG time! (why rape is such a popular fantasy)

Well, there's more to it than that. I read a bit further and there's a section in the book devoted specifically to rape fantasies. As the author explains it, part of the appeal deals with the fact that women's sexuality is fairly repressed in our society. Under the circumstances of the rape, a woman is being forced to do all sorts of acts against her will. However, women do have such sexual desires and curiosities, so within the context of the fantasy she actually wants the acts to be performed to her. In a way, you could say that it's a way of getting around feelings of guilt and shame relating to sexuality - society dictates that a woman shouldn't want such things, but she's getting them (and truly does want them) but she can claim that it wasn't you who initiated or even really wanted them because it was forced upon her. Additionally, many rape fantasies involve masked or otherwise anonymous men. Supposedly this allows the woman to engage in all sorts of acts and be as much of a sexual beast as she wants, and because of the anonymous nature, she doesn't have to worry about her reputation or any other fallout from showing that she really got into it.

Again, it's worth mentioning that these are fantasies, and the women who submitted them to the book remark that they detest the thought of a real rape (or, for some, were in a real situation where they could have been raped, and they fought back against it and averted it). Also, while there are some similar themes behind them, many of these fantasies are fairly unique. I have to say, they're much more detailed and complicated than men's fantasies (which usually involve little more than a woman or women with an attractive body and a reason, even if ill-conceived, for having sex). One could argue that many of these fantasies are reflective of something about the woman who harbors them, whether it's somehow a need to feel something that is missing in her life, or just a sexual fetish.

It's interesting in that it causes me to re-evaluate what's considered to be anti-feminist. In terms of fantasy, if women harbor many of the same fantasies that men do, then is the media really harmful? Granted, not all women have the same fantasies, and some may find these media fantasies to be insulting... but should it be? I think it's a bit more clear-cut when there's anti-feminism in reality, but as far as media fantasy goes I think it's a bit more difficult. Even then, I suppose one should also consider who the fantasy is supposed to cater to.

[raduccio]

Originally Posted by djmaca

Hates, mind you. And the guy clearly express he genuinely likes her. Dominated? So teasing the girl you like is now domination?

I say Maid-sama is feminist, since Misaki is on even footing with Usui and only a couple of other characters can match them in terms of awesomeness.

This show is better than the others but they still make Usui too perfect. Like a girl only has to chose a guy who's her superior at many things.
But at least he cares about her and treats her right. Unlike many other shoujo mangas.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by raduccio

But at least he cares about her and treats her right.

That is the most important thing.

I've only seen one episode of the anime but what I gather from Usui is that he's a little bit of an instigator (likes to rattle Misaki's cage on purpose) so that could count as a character flaw, maybe?

[DonQuigleone]

Eh, teasing isn't that bad a behaviour. My family tease one another all the time.

[Chiibi]

Hmm, well then is Usui naturally talented or does he make a major effort to beat Misaki in everything?

fruits basket - i think the main character was pretty strong but she takes a lot of unnecessary abuse, which she fights with kindness. i'm on the fence.

Forgot to address this; pretty much any outsider who gets involved with the Souma family is going to take abuse so I'm not sure if this counts. I wouldn't call this anti-feminist for sure. The male characters get abused a whole lot more and they have to depend on Tooru much more heavily than she depends on them. Well, the female Soumas get a hard time too. I call it a nice, even balanced series. (and I'm talking about the manga, here)

[Kirarakim]

I highly disagree that either Fruits Baskets or Nodame Cantabile are anti-feminist.

For Fruits Basket I don't recall Tohru taking that much "abuse". She does seem too unrealistic at first in how much she gives of herself but this is addressed in the manga in relation to her feelings for Kyo & her mother. She's not perfect by any means. Although I've seen in general "nice girls" like Tohru are often looked down upon. It's not Tohru that is anti-feminist but the attitude that a female character can only be a certain way to be a well written female character. In the end

Spoiler:

certainly Tohru was appreciated for her efforts with the Sohmas & found her own happiness with Kyo (something she wanted for herself).

I see nothing anti-feminist about that.

As for Nodame Cantabile, Chiaka is your classic male Tsundere. Yes there are moments of "comedy abuse" between him & Nodame but this is no different then those comic scenes when the girl beats up on the guy in many a shounen story). Granted I am not the biggest fan of this type of comedy but it's something I accept as just comedy. And it would be a double standard if I accepted when the girl does it in shounen stories, but not Chiaki in Nodame.

So yeah sometimes Chiaki acts tough on Nodame in the typical
Tsundere fashion but pay attention it's Chiaki not Nodame who ends up changing the most in terms of their relationship. Its Chiaki who enters the "Hentai forest". It's Chiaki who always runs after Nodame. Chiaki stays with Nodame because despite who he thinks he is initially, Nodame will always be his inspiration. She opened up his world for him by introducing him to her weirdness & Chiaki accepting he wants that weirdness in his life. In fact even without Nodame, Chiaki is drawn to weird situations.

And finally Nodame who originally wants to become a musician on the world stage because of Chiaki eventually realizes she wants to do it for herself.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

In terms of fantasy, if women harbor many of the same fantasies that men do, then is the media really harmful?

That's a very difficult question, as it sits at the intersection of individual wants and structural inequality. What you, as an individual, want might - if catered to - favour existing power structures. It's difficult.

So, for example, if you say above that part of women's rape fantasies come from a repression of desires, then catering to those fantasies gives them an outlet for these feelings, which in turn continues a structure that represses female desire in such a way, that more women will have rape fantasies. It's not the rape fantasies that are the problem; it's the double standard: promiscuous males are hunks/promiscuous females are sluts. Catering to female rape fantasies (in that one aspect) helps continue this trend, by letting both genders pretend there is no problem.

But not catering to those rape fantasies means depriving women of that outlet, so they'll have to deal with it differently.

Simply put, short-term goals are at odds with long-term goals. There is no easy solution. It's not even easy to get people to agree what the problem is in the first place. I'd discourage binary thinking: it's either right or wrong. Because "harmful" depends on your vision: short-term harmful? Long-term harmful? The ultimate goal is respect for female sexuality, isn't it? You nibble at all corners, without pointing fingers in a this-good/that-bad manner.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

As for Nodame Cantabile, Chiaka is your classic male Tsundere.

Really now?

I better put this show on my watch list!! XD

[SeijiSensei]

It should be on everyone's watch list. And I agree with Kirarakim, there's no way I would call Nodame Cantabile anti-feminist. Nodame isn't an obvious standard-bearer for feminism the way Saiunkoku Monogatari's Shurrei or Hataraki Man's Hiroko are. But Nodame's career plans and development as a musician are important themes throughout the show. There's no way she can be seen as just Chiaki's doormat; if anything those roles are reversed from time to time like this:

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Really now?

I better put this show on my watch list!! XD

Yeah, I'd say Chiaki is fairly tsundere, he's also a bit OCD. Nodame's the opposite... SEE THE SPARKS (of love) FLY.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

It should be on everyone's watch list. And I agree with Kirarakim, there's no way I would call Nodame Cantabile anti-feminist. Nodame isn't an obvious standard-bearer for feminism the way Saiunkoku Monogatari's Shurrei or Hataraki Man's Hiroko are. But Nodame's career plans and development as a musician are important themes throughout the show. There's no way she can be seen as just Chiaki's doormat; if anything those roles are reversed from time to time like this:

I don't think the female characters have to be competent or successful for a show to be feminist. I think the main requirement is that the female character has to be a) multidimensional and b) active.

For instance, I would consider Madame Bovary to be feminist (or not anti-feminist), the central character, Madame Bovary, is intelligent, and yearns for an exciting luxurious life inspired by the novels she reads, all the while she's married to a boring husband. So in order to live up to those dreams, she has extra marital affairs, and accrues mountains of debt in order to live out her fantasies.

Madame Bovary is neither good or bad. She does many bad things, but does so for reasons we can understand. Something that's feminist features realistic multidimensional female characters, and just as "male" novels can feature incredibly flawed male characters, so should they contain flawed female characters. I really should read madame bovary (I've been meaning to for a while)

The key thing is that they treat female characters as they would treat male characters. The female characters are not passive participants.


There's a strange thing that happens with female characters and their "goodness". We never require male characters to be "good role models" we love Macbeth for his ambition and viciousness, we love Don Quixote for his idealistic madness. And yet when we talk about female characters we often include phrases along the lines of "she's a great role model", like female characters need to have moral worth to be good characters.

So I think Nodame is a great character, who passes a feminist test, She has talents, she has goals, she's unique, and she grows. In terms of Romantic comedy she's great (we're not looking for Madame Bovary style train wrecks in such a genre ).

[MisaoFan]

And I don't think Shonen is guiltless either (in that it just at best ignores women).

There's plenty of shounen when they really focuses on women rather than ignoring women. However, shounen of nowadays really focuses on either more feminine (bishounen) or more fanservice-ish.

Also, I would rather imagine my ideal shoujo manga but the problem is that I read/watch loads of shounen romance. I just hope it will be better than Kameruka's shoujo stories :
The story is about a highschool girl who lives in a normal life until one day a mysterious, handsome boy poped out of nowhere destroys half of the city. Everyone, save for the highschool girl, are dead, so the only way to stop the boy destroying everything is to make a "love promise" and confess that to him.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Madame Bovary is neither good or bad. She does many bad things, but does so for reasons we can understand. Something that's feminist features realistic multidimensional female characters, and just as "male" novels can feature incredibly flawed male characters, so should they contain flawed female characters. I really should read madame bovary (I've been meaning to for a while)

Oh Madame Bovary...I am really surprised you know so much about it (an excellent review of her character) having not read it.

Anyways I would recommend the book cautiously. I liked it because I feel if you read it closely it sympathizes with both Madame Bovary and her husband but a friend of mine who read it did have issues with Madame Bovary (who might be a character that is hard to identify with).

I do agree with you that a female character doesn't have to just be a good role model (although I can't say I wouldn't want to see more of that in fiction) but a great female character should have her own story. Too often in fiction the female character's role is reduced to being about the male character's story and this is a bit frustrating.

Sorry for going a bit OT there.

But anyways back to Nodame Cantabile. one of the reasons I like the story so much is Nodame reminds me of the great screwball heroines of the comedies from the 1930's or she even gives me glimpses of Lucille Ball from I love Lucy (with Chiaki obviously playing the straight man like Desi Arnaz who just can't help falling for the girl despite her crazy antics)