Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Destined_Fate]

It's been too long since the SEED hardcores refused to gives Destiny a chance even after they got their wish with Kira and Lacus stealing the show and ruining it. I doubt you'll be able to gather much data on it anymore as many topics and the such have been lost/deleted/hidden away due to the creep of time.

And good luck trying to navigate very old Japanese forums.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Tak

FATkuda is a big Star Wars fan, a fact he admitted himself. He mimicked Dully's HQ to that of Palpatine's, while Shinn was modeled after Anakin. Anakin, as we know, used to be kind and good, until he was corrupted and resorted to power in order to solve all of life's shortcomings (while still thinking he was doing the world a favor).

Of course, Shinn had a happier ending. He was not turned into a bot and retained his love interest (or more a last-minute hookup).

- Tak

explains why destiny kept having it's hand cut off

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Pshaw, even those in Destiny's development said Shinn x Lunamaria's love was the greatest and so did many fans, especially when the marriage happened.

You underestimate how much of an effect a VA can have when it comes towards fleshing out and bringing a character alive. That and Shinn and Lunamaria's VA's already had a past of playing as Love Interests so it ended up working very well between them, as they were very comfortable working together in such roles, to salvage things that bad writing would have ruined without them.

That and Lacus is the girl Kira settled with, Kira's true love was and always will be Flay while Shinn at least never saw Stellar as a love interest but as a little sister due to how much she reminded him of his dead sister.

Had Flay lived and returned to him there's no way Kira would have ever gotten with Lacus. He wouldn't even let her kiss him at the end of SEED as he was preparing to launch out to fight Rau, ZAFT, and save Flay. They also don't even share the same bed in Destiny nor do they kiss or the such, they're like robots because Kira is a broken man that settled.

Athrun on the other hand than let Cagalli know that he loved her very much so and that Lacus and him were never a thing.

Kira didn't love Fllay or Lacus in Seed (confirmed info) so calling Fllay his one true love doesn't work. Kira and Lacus were living together but they weren't a couple until just before Kira got back into the Freedom in Destiny. There wouldn't have been a whole lot of time to showcase them after that since they were then on the run from the EA, ORB, and ZAFT as well as Lacus choosing to go into space. Just because Fllay died doesn't mean that Kira "settled" with Lacus. People lose those they cared about. doesn't mean they were guaranteed to remain together even if that person lived. saying that he "settled" for Lacus can be just as easy as me saying him with Lacus was just delayed by Fllay's death. The two seemed to be clearly heading in that direction. he just couldn't put his guilt when it came to Fllay behind him. and no guilt =/= love.

[Destined_Fate]

Yes Kira did love her as she was his first as well as his true love. Kira worked his rear off to try to save Flay even if it wasn't smart as it nearly got him killed and when she died he had a severe Heroic BSOD that nearly killed him than.

Kire even refused to kiss Lacus near the end of SEED because in his eyes was still "with" Flay even after their break up and he had ever intention of saving and getting back with her. When that failed he wanted to die but he ended up living. He than settled with Lacus whom he refused to even share the same bed with as he cannot bring himself to commit to Lacus while he's still haunted over losing his true love by the time Destiny starts.

Kira was extremely depressed/emo for early Destiny because of that guilt. Lacus knows he settled with her but she doesn't care because she's "perfect" and isn't allowed to have emotions such as jealousy.

Only by the end of Destiny does Kira finally bury the guilt he has over losing Flay and moving on to Lacus even if she wasn't his first option.

You can't even do a Cloud x Tifa spin here as at least Tifa was Cloud's true love and first love while Aerith was more motherly to Cloud and was only interested because Cloud reminded her of Zack.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Yes Kira did love her as she was his first as well as his true love. Kira worked his rear off to try to save Flay even if it wasn't smart as it nearly got him killed and when she died he had a severe Heroic BSOD that nearly killed him than.

Kire even refused to kiss Lacus near the end of SEED because in his eyes was still "with" Flay even after their break up and he had ever intention of saving and getting back with her. When that failed he wanted to die but he ended up living. He than settled with Lacus whom he refused to even share the same bed with as he cannot bring himself to commit to Lacus while he's still haunted over losing his true love by the time Destiny starts.

Kira was extremely depressed/emo for early Destiny because of that guilt. Lacus knows he settled with her but she doesn't care because she's "perfect" and isn't allowed to have emotions such as jealousy.

Only by the end of Destiny does Kira finally bury the guilt he has over losing Flay and moving on to Lacus even if she wasn't his first option.

You can't even do a Cloud x Tifa spin here as at least Tifa was Cloud's true love and first love while Aerith was more motherly to Cloud and was only interested because Cloud reminded her of Zack.

give me irrefutable proof that Fllay was his "one true love". There isn't any. official sources state he loved neither Fllay or Lacus in Seed and I can see that. Fllay he holds a huge amount of guilt towards and being with her only made that worse. so of course he's not going to get into another relationship until he could put the past behind him which is why he didn't kiss Lacus. Knowing that Fllay had been taken onto a ship with a madman because he could get to her isn't going to help. Even if she survived the chances of them remaining together are close to zero. There is simply too much damage. Not once had Kira ever stated that he wanted to tell Fllay he loved her. Just that he was sorry. NO Fllay is not a "one true love", she's a "someone important I need to protect" to Kira which is a HUGE difference.

[The American Average]

why does the true love thing matter? cause like all the relationships in Seed/Destiny felt out of the blue or forced. the only relationship i can back was ShinnXPink Cell Phone.

[Rising Dragon]

You know I don't know why everyone hates on Shinn's fixation on Mayu's cellphone. His behavior with it is actually startlingly realistic for people with such trauma.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

You know I don't know why everyone hates on Shinn's fixation on Mayu's cellphone. His behavior with it is actually startlingly realistic for people with such trauma.

Hmm, I actually think thats a topic that had often been overlooked. I personally haven't seen much, if any topics regarding Shinn and Mayu's cellphone since 2006

As for true loves bit. Just keep in mind, Kira & Lacus were intended to reflect the FATkuda husband and wife. Not Fllay.

- Tak

[Admiral Larsen]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

You know I don't know why everyone hates on Shinn's fixation on Mayu's cellphone. His behavior with it is actually startlingly realistic for people with such trauma.

Considering how he lost his family and saw their remains, very true.

Originally Posted by The American Average

why does the true love thing matter? cause like all the relationships in Seed/Destiny felt out of the blue or forced. the only relationship i can back was ShinnXPink Cell Phone.

Believe me I wish we didn't have to and that you're very much correct. This ate up precious time that could have been committed to other sections of the show.

[Aquaman OS]

I assume because he never got over it. He just obsessed over Mayu and her loss from beginning to end. That and rage. Mayu and anger, that was literally his whole character for 90 percent of the show.

It's bad because it shows how Shinn was obsessed with the past to an almost unhealthy degree. Did he back Durandal because he geniunely believed in the good the Destiny Plan could do the world? No, he just backed it because if the Destiny Plan had been in place 2 years prior Mayu wouldn't have died.

And the problem is it's not just Shinn, EVERYONE had lost people close to them. But Shinn was the only one that refused to move on. He was stuck in the past, and let that control him.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

I assume because he never got over it. He just obsessed over Mayu and her loss from beginning to end. That and rage. Mayu and anger, that was literally his whole character for 90 percent of the show.

It's bad because it shows how Shinn was obsessed with the past to an almost unhealthy degree. Did he back Durandal because he geniunely believed in the good the Destiny Plan could do the world? No, he just backed it because if the Destiny Plan had been in place 2 years prior Mayu wouldn't have died.

And the problem is it's not just Shinn, EVERYONE had lost people close to them. But Shinn was the only one that refused to move on. He was stuck in the past, and let that control him.

This is where Character development should come in. If Athrun said to Shinn what he said in the Justice Vs Destiny Fight like 20 episodes earlier we would have gotten a much better Shinn character.

Everyone lost someone is true, and look at the characters that were close to the ones they lost. Cagalli was an idiot for most of the show because of dads death, Flays whole character was based off of the death of her father and how she how dealt with the pain, Athrun loses Nichol gets mad too, takes a Kira death to have him get over it, and Murrue loses Mwu is still hurt by it all the way up until Neo becomes a AA crew member. I Think Marrue deals with it better. The responses from Lacus when losing her dad and got over it in a couple of episodes was crazy. Kira gets over everything pretty quick too in destiny but in Seed I think that little girl that died in Re-entry grieved him for a while in story i forget when he gets over it.

So Shinn isn't the only one that didn't get over death of family/friend, all those character that got over it had someone close by to help them through the pain and to understand them. Shinn had no one to help with his anger and rage, so it just bottled up inside, if he had someone to listen/helped him he would have gotten over it, end of Destiny shows it i believe.

[Aquaman OS]

Shinn had 2 years with lots of friends in Zaft to get over it. He didn't.

Granted he loses most of those friends once he becomes Durandal's Sith Lord, but still, he had two years and he's still obsessing over it like it happened yesterday. Even Athrun was mostly over his Seed losses by then (The Junius Seven incident brought his father issues to the surface again, but he was over that fairly quickly as well.)

Murrue was over Mwu's death all the way until Neo showed up again. Andy meanwhile was so over Aisha's death that he was totally fine being buddies with her killer.

Cagalli meanwhile was upset for failing to live up to her father's ideals. Not because he died. She was over that in a few days in Seed.

Shinn didn't even seem to WANT to get over it. He dwelled on it. He used it to trigger his Seed mode. And he used it to claim the moral high ground over Orb. He almost gleefully used it to rub in Cagalli's face that Orb's ideals didn't save everyone.

[Washu-Chan]

I've read somewhere that Kira was supposed to be Luke Skywalker.

Also, if Shinn's turn was supposed to mirror Anakin's turn in the prequels, I can imagine this conservation:

Shinn: No. I am your brother. Search your feelings; you know it to be true.
Kira: NOOOOOO~!

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Shinn had 2 years with lots of friends in Zaft to get over it. He didn't.

We don't know he had close friends in ZAFT over the 2 years and who starts a conversion about their dead family? its not a friend at school kinda of conversion.

Granted he loses most of those friends once he becomes Durandal's Sith Lord, but still, he had two years and he's still obsessing over it like it happened yesterday. Even Athrun was mostly over his Seed losses by then (The Junius Seven incident brought his father issues to the surface again, but he was over that fairly quickly as well.)

Shinn wasn't obsessing about it, only in his very private moments he got out the Mayu cellphone, the death of his family was his driving force to go forward in his military career.

Murrue was over Mwu's death all the way until Neo showed up again. Andy meanwhile was so over Aisha's death that he was totally fine being buddies with her killer.

she still was bugged/hurt by it, you can see Mwu's hat in her/Andy's House on a bookshelf next to her captain hat.

Cagalli meanwhile was upset for failing to live up to her father's ideals. Not because he died. She was over that in a few days in Seed.

it was still related to her family and death, it still affected her character like Shinn.

Shinn didn't even seem to WANT to get over it. He dwelled on it. He used it to trigger his Seed mode. And he used it to claim the moral high ground over Orb. He almost gleefully used it to rub in Cagalli's face that Orb's ideals didn't save everyone.

we don't know if he did not want to get over it maybe he couldn't? he was 14 during the incident of his family's brutal death, you don't get over that in just 2 years you just learn how to live with it. now i got nothing against your "Rub it in Cagalli's face" part i think shinn was a douche there and it was out of line.

[monster]

Originally Posted by The American Average

my god dude, you really think they didn't fan pander when compared to the other gundam series?

Not in anyway that would make the series suffer, or did you think that adding Miriallia would have such an effect on the show?

fine, what was the point of bring in Miriallia Haw? she didn't need to come back to the AA or even show up, but did.

Neither did Amuro in Zeta, but he showed up too.

But to answer your question, Miriallia allowed Athrun to get in touch with Cagalli and Kira.

Also i said ...

You also said:

Originally Posted by The American Average

Did any other gundam series suffer due to fan requests and writers liking other character over the ones that should be Main character, seriously? i don't think there is any Gundam series to pander to the fans like Seed/Destiny did. i could be wrong though

I'm only asking you how you found out that the director/writer made changes to the show specifically to fulfill those alleged fan requests as opposed to intending for those things to happen in the first place?

Originally Posted by The American Average

Miriallia was a reporter/photographer during Destiny right? Why she drop that to help Kira, also weren't Kuzzey and Sai (maybe not Sai) friends of Kira why didn't they show up? Now if Miriallia kept doing reporter Photographing stuff for the war i'd totally buy her coming aboard the AA for that. But so, Kira asks you just go on board a ship that killed boyfriend and nearly yourself killed you and just hop on board for another ride?

I don't think Kira ever asked her to join. She probably joined of her own accord after seeing the situation.

[S.Freedom]

Originally Posted by The American Average

Miriallia was a reporter/photographer during Destiny right? Why she drop that to help Kira, also weren't Kuzzey and Sai (maybe not Sai) friends of Kira why didn't they show up? Now if Miriallia kept doing reporter Photographing stuff for the war i'd totally buy her coming aboard the AA for that. But so, Kira asks you just go on board a ship that killed boyfriend and nearly yourself killed you and just hop on board for another ride?

So lemme get this straight. Remaining a photographer trumps your close friend asking for your help? Being a photographer trumps helping to end a war?

Lemme ask you something. If your closest friend asked for your help in doing something really important. Would you A) Say sure how can I help? or B) Sorry man I'm to busy doing my own thing.

Because the way your talking I get the feeling you'd tell your friend to screw off.

[BladeEntity]

I thought that Miri was part of terminal the whole time, and being a photographer was her cover, hence she knew the proper channels to contact the AA.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by monster

I'm only asking you how you found out that the director/writer made changes to the show specifically to fulfill those alleged fan requests as opposed to intending for those things to happen in the first place?

Look at the various character polls (NewType, Gundam Ace) during its original broadcast, and Kira, Athrun, and Lacus dominated their respective categories, and they also won the "Most Popular Character" (keyword, Popular) awards in the Anime Grand Prix Awards. Soichiro Hoshi also won the Best Seiyuu Award three times (2002, 2005, 2006), but I don't know if it's for his performance, or (likely) because of Kira's fanbase.

Shinn was popular on his own right, but he wasn't getting over on the level of Athrun and especially Kira.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by monster

Neither did Amuro in Zeta, but he showed up too.

Amuro helped with the plot immensely, by helping Kamille and help win several battles that changed the outcome of the show, Miriallia didn't do anything that close to help the plot at all.

You also said: I'm only asking you how you found out that the director/writer made changes to the show specifically to fulfill those alleged fan requests as opposed to intending for those things to happen in the first place? I don't think Kira ever asked her to join. She probably joined of her own accord after seeing the situation.

I'm saying her popularity is what got her back in the show, her story was more or less wrapped up in Seed and didn't need to be continued. look at Sai and Kuzzey they didn't get a second of animation in Destiny they just got a "oh by the way" reason why they weren't in the show.

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

So lemme get this straight. Remaining a photographer trumps your close friend asking for your help? Being a photographer trumps helping to end a war?

Lemme ask you something. If your closest friend asked for your help in doing something really important. Would you A) Say sure how can I help? or B) Sorry man I'm to busy doing my own thing.

Because the way your talking I get the feeling you'd tell your friend to screw off.

If a friend asked me "Hey, hop on this ship, sit in this chair the whole time while I do everything" I'd tell him to try again later. Now if it was something important only i could do then, yeah I'd help.

Miriallia literally didn't do anything to advance the plot, the only important thing she did was get Athrun in contact with AA, if she wasn't there AA or Athrun would have found another way to get in contact with each other.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Look at the various character polls (NewType, Gundam Ace) during its original broadcast, and Kira, Athrun, and Lacus dominated their respective categories, and they also won the "Most Popular Character" (keyword, Popular) awards in the Anime Grand Prix Awards. Soichiro Hoshi also won the Best Seiyuu Award three times (2002, 2005, 2006), but I don't know if it's for his performance, or (likely) because of Kira's fanbase.

Shinn was popular on his own right, but he wasn't getting over on the level of Athrun and especially Kira.

Character polls show which characters are popular among the voters.

In other words, they're one way to gauge reactions, but of their own, they don't say anything about how a show is made.

[monster]

Originally Posted by The American Average

Amuro helped with the plot immensely, by helping Kamille and help win several battles that changed the outcome of the show, Miriallia didn't do anything that close to help the plot at all.

Except Amuro himself didn't need to be the one to do those things.

And as for Miriallia, not every character has to help with every major plot points. Her role was to set up the meeting, and that's fine for her character.

I'm saying her popularity is what got her back in the show, her story was more or less wrapped up in Seed and didn't need to be continued. look at Sai and Kuzzey they didn't get a second of animation in Destiny they just got a "oh by the way" reason why they weren't in the show.

Well, there's the fact that Athrun knew her, which made it easier for him to approach her. Not every character has to have a story of their own to be usable in a show.

If a friend asked me "Hey, hop on this ship, sit in this chair the whole time while I do everything" I'd tell him to try again later. Now if it was something important only i could do then, yeah I'd help.

Helping her friends is probably important for Miriallia.

Miriallia literally didn't do anything to advance the plot, the only important thing she did was get Athrun in contact with AA, if she wasn't there AA or Athrun would have found another way to get in contact with each other.

Which brings me again to the Amuro example. Sure, there can be multiple ways to accomplish something, but complaining that they chose the one that also makes use of an established character seems like an overreaction to me.