2013-06-27, 10:12 | Link #1 |
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Cultural reactions to sexual portrayals in anime
So, I'm an American.. . .I was watching Dance in the Vampire Bund yesterday.
I got to episode two before I dropped it, and this was because of the scene where the female loli character has the MC rub lotion all over her . . .NINE YEAR OLD NAKED BODY, and he puts his hands down into her nether-regions. . . Since I'm NOT into that kind of shit, I almost threw my keyboard at the monitor(thank god it missed) Anyway I figured there would be a lot of outrage so I checked on MAL's forums. . .and guess what I saw. People were PRAISING the episode. wtf? One comment really got me: "This episode was crazy! Japan has gone far out in American terms but we here in Europe would tolerate this kind of thing more...we are after all more mature" What? Can any Europeans comment on this? I'm actually shocked this show even got made. . .like wtf who writes shit like this? Shows like this are what make me hide the fact that I'm an Anime fan to friends/coworkers in real life. Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-06-27 at 16:23. Reason: Thread title edited to be more neutral, removed flamebait comment |
2013-06-27, 10:20 | Link #2 |
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Sorry, but I have to agree.
I watched the first episode and got immediately squicked out by the little eight year old dancing nekkid as a jaybird. I know she's supposed to be thousands of years old but....HELL NAW. I'm American, but I think the reason why European fans weren't squicked out by the nudity is that Europe is more comfortable with nudity then Americans are. Don't get me wrong...I have no problems with nudity, as long as it's done tastefully. And in anime, the stuff I watch or read really doesn't have anything like that anyway(at least not too often). However, if not liking a nude 8 year old, even though she's supernatural, shake her rear makes me a prudish 'Murrican......oh well. *shrugs* So be it. It squicked me out too in Nisemonogarati but at least Spoiler:
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2013-06-27, 10:31 | Link #3 |
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It's frustrating. Particularly when it's pointless fanservice mixed in with a good story.
Like Railgun season 1. Way too much naked fanservice of middle school girls. Who even finds that titillating? If it weren't for that I'd probably re-watch it occasionally. And that's what people seem to think anime is. Which is surprising to me, because I thought people would think of Voltron and Speed Racer as the mainstream image of anime, but I guess not. I find that if a person gets down on me for anime I just show them the first episode of Bunny Drop or Cross Game and say: "These are the types of anime I watch." After that they usually don't give me too much trouble about anime.
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2013-06-27, 10:48 | Link #4 |
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It's the pervert/prude dichotomy, which is a false dichotomy. The internet in general suffers from this, but the online anime fandom in particular suffers a lot from it (probably because of the nature of some anime content).
The idea is that everybody gets pigeonholed as either a pervert or a prude. If you express dislike over any sort of animated sexual content, for any reason, then out comes the "prude" label. The thing is that not everybody is turned on by everything that's of a sexual nature. It doesn't make them a prude, it just means that certain animated sexual situations are unappealing and/or disturbing to them. The same person who dislikes Dance in the Vampire Bund might love Lupin III: The Woman Called Fujiko Mine. So it's not a question of prudishness, it's a question of different taste.
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2013-06-27, 11:11 | Link #5 | |
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I bet it's one of those "but she's really 500 years old stuff". I have no real comment because I haven't seen this, but it's Shaft, and it wouldn't be one of their first shows to have pedo vibes from it. >.>
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In fact why did you make this thread to generalize to Europeans? Europe's a pretty large place you know. I understand that geography and Americans run like oil and water, but please more awareness and consideration of people from other places please!
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-06-27 at 11:42. |
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2013-06-27, 11:15 | Link #6 |
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It's fiction. It may be morally reprehensible, but it's still fiction, and no one is forcing you to endure it. People who do shitty things in real life? They deserve punishment. That's the line I draw.
Is some of it obscene/exploitative? Absolutely. Some of it is genuine art, but of course that's always going to be subjective. But that's really no different than violence or other social taboos when used in fiction. Also, as a moderator, I'll take this moment to state that if the discussion goes out of control I will not hesitate to close it and issue punishment if needed. Please keep this civil and thoughtful.
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2013-06-27, 11:27 | Link #7 |
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Yeah, I was seriously offended more by 'EUROPE SUPPORTS CHILD MOLESTATION' than anything....
And I loved A Woman Called Fujiko! I actually want to own it but Funi pushed it back...
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2013-06-27, 11:34 | Link #8 | |
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One thing I really tire of is how when people criticize this sort of content it's automatically conflated into a call for censorship, when often people are just expressing a dislike of it. You can dislike something without thinking it should be censored. I mean, Star Wars fans tend to dislike the Prequels quite a bit, but I haven't seen any call for them to be censored - Do you see my point?
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2013-06-27, 11:36 | Link #9 | |
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Vile thoughts do not equate vile actions when not realized. On the other hand, although we understand the severity of the situation is greatly reduced in fiction, it's also not nonexistent, and is potentially sidestepping the issue. But some lines are more clear cut than others. Nudity alone, in most cases is subject to debate. Even in "prudish" US, we do not consider nudity in itself to be obscene. Gratuitous nudity of very young characters for nothing other than "fanservice" is another issue. It would be very hard to really explain the need for that in the Nanoha movies, for example. It's not enough to go out and carry around pick up signs. But sometimes it's just annoying enough to warrant some complaints.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-06-27 at 11:39. Reason: fuck double negatives, but don't fuck anything else in fear of the moral police |
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2013-06-27, 12:07 | Link #10 | |
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Historically such events took place of screen. It's only in the last 50 years or so that there has been a big push to depict all the details. Has storytelling significantly improved in the last 50 years? Not that I have seen. Also, I think there is a significant difference between depicting young children as sexual objects and a mere taboo. Any story that includes young children being sexualized ought to depict it as a great evil, because it is evil. Some works do this, but do so using a "show don't tell" method that can be very disturbing, (eg Lolita). Does Dance in the Vampire Bud fall in that category? Somehow I doubt it. Furthermore I am tired of this catch-all "violence" category. There is a huge difference between gore, or violence shown for violence sake, and the depiction of violence as used by the good guy to defeat the bad guy. One violates the moral code, the other actually upholds the moral code. Completely different situations that are collapsed in to one term. Nor is the "it's just fiction" really a good defense. We spend a huge amount of our lives telling and listening to fictional stories. Fiction is important. Good fiction is good for us. Bad or corrupt fiction is bad for us. Maybe there are no physical effects, but there is certainly a spiritual effect. Why else do we spend so much effort looking for good stories if they don't do something good for us? If good fiction benefits us spiritually, then it follows that bad fiction is bad for us spiritually. Now you can make the libertarian argument that people must choose between good and evil for themselves, and that as long as no actual specific people are hurt, society shouldn't interfere. But that argument is very different from claiming that the works are harmless. Nor does it imply that we are obligated to withhold our moral opprobrium from such works.
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2013-06-27, 12:18 | Link #11 |
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For whatever it's worth when Dance in a Vampire Bund came out on DVD in France I was shopping at a fnac store which is really mainstream,the anime part of the store was showing DIVB on TV screen and that scene in question came on, I asked someone working at the store if costumers ever complained and nope,though apparently some costumers were just bewildered at the idea of the scene being a turn on for some but they weren't outraged or anything.
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2013-06-27, 12:47 | Link #13 | |||||||||
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Violence is used as a catch all because it is rarely treated with the reverence of taboo that we treat it with in real life. It is liberally used in media, saturated even, and yet it's a reflection of our "moral code" in real life, where killing has so many different meanings and intents that sometimes it makes great storytelling to explore how we justify or condemn each instance. Violence even has its own niche, taboo names. Snuff films. Gore Porn. Torture Porn. Quote:
The good and the bad. You need a balance of both. Without one, you cannot hope to understand the other, to appreciate, tolerate, or condemn. To explore the darkness means plumbing the depths of depravity that can only exist in the hearts and minds of your fellow men. Quote:
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2013-06-27, 13:27 | Link #14 | |||||||
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Don't confuse stories that are spiritually beneficial as requiring only happy uplifting endings. Nor does it mean that beneficial stories can't explore dark themes. However, such themes need to be contextualized and presented within the universal moral framework of civilization. Tragedy is a great form of storytelling, and sadly under appreciated in modern times. Tragedy reminds us how breaking the moral code inevitably leads to damnation. The hero has a fatal flaw, or makes a fatal mistake - and that act leads to the destruction of himself and others. Tragedy explores some of the darkest aspects of life. Oedipus deals with incest, murder, and insanity. Yet Tragedy provides spiritual benefits through catharsis. What does a catharsis have to do with naked underage girls having lotion rubbed on them? What does pointless breast grabbing between middle school girls have to compare to War and Peace or King Lear? Don't equate Macbeth with a snuff film. Quote:
Read "Seven Basic Plots" by Booker. He explains it better than I do, but the major problem in art today is this fantasy that we can escape the traditional moral standards and find our own happy ending in moral depravity. Fiction that depicts such fantasies is as worthless as brownies made from horse crap.
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Last edited by Sackett; 2013-06-27 at 13:43. |
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2013-06-27, 13:38 | Link #15 | |
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2013-06-27, 13:44 | Link #16 |
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I see. That comments poorly on the film makers in turning the moral of Lolita so completely upside down.
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2013-06-27, 13:45 | Link #17 |
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Evaluating a work of fiction's right to exist based on some moral criteria is pretty much exactly what governments in the past have done to ban books that they felt were 'dangerous' to their regime. In many parts of the world it's still being done. A lot of those books are considered important works of literature today.
Regarding the 'image' of anime today being way more sexualized, that's mostly because of economic reasons. Fan service based shows sell well enough to justify their cost, and takes significantly less effort to create than more serious works of anime. They're also great for merchandising. |
2013-06-27, 13:48 | Link #18 | |
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(I also see no point in 1-2 minute ops/eds. . .but that's another topic) I'd say most Americans aren't too bothered by nudity, but that scene was faaaaaaaaaar beyond nudity, I was just shocked and a bit pissed, especially with the people on MAL having the whole attitude of "If you don't like it, its 'cause your an immature 'murican." Now some people would probably say "Well that's MAL not the anime community. . ." Thing is I've seen similar scenes in anime, and similar responses bashing people who found it squicky on even forums like this (although the scenes weren't as explicit as in that show) I mean this show did not need that scene at all to make the story good. . .I was already intrigued as it was. Usually scenes like that are aimed toward a certain demographic. . .It was like the show was TRYING to insult me... I was mad on so many levels. . .This is not Lolita or TellTale/Heart of darkness or some grand novel that has disturbing scenes for a reason that's actually a main part of the story. It was just needless pandering to a certain demographic. And people were applauding/insulting those who for with good reason found it unacceptable was just. . .wow. I just can't imagine anyone sitting down to watch that and being "ok" with it. The whole Violence vs. Sex thing is pretty interesting, and probably isn't fair that we try to suppress sexuality but praise violence(simplifying the discussion about that but y you know what I'm getting at) It still doesn't help me get over stuff like that when it's aimed at children. . .I'd probably be upset if there was some hard to watch child violence scene as well(except for shounen. . .as nobody takes the shounen genre seriously. . .likes really everyone seems to hate shounen or laugh at it) P.S. I haven't seen NisemonoShaftagatari and I don't plan to (bakemonopretentioustari was bad enough after 3 episodes.) |
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2013-06-27, 13:51 | Link #19 | |
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We're just saying that such stories should be subject to moral opprobrium. Why is that so controversial? Can't you disapprove of fiction even if you don't think it should be censored? Or are we just not allowed to voice our disapproval?
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2013-06-27, 14:07 | Link #20 | |
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Otherwise the thread is just going to devolve into people who don't like it complaining and the people who support it repeating stuff about free speech/market economics. |
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