Marineford Arc discussion (Anime-only)

[Pwnago]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

And Whitebeard was the one who told Ace not to go after Blackbeard in the first place.

To be honest I didn't see that in the anime lool, I recently passed that episode and im currently rewatching the anime atm on 337..

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Akainu is a logia. That is why he survived...and unfortunately for him - because he has a physical body because of that magma - it means if he gets hit point blank by WB's EQ attack...its gonna hurt him big time.

Being a logia had nothing to do with Akainu's survival. Whitebeard was using Haki, which of course enabled him to critically injure Akainu (haki bypasses the defenses of any DF). Akainu is just very resilient.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Being a logia had nothing to do with Akainu's survival. Whitebeard was using Haki, which of course enabled him to critically injure Akainu (haki bypasses the defenses of any DF). Akainu is just very resilient.

A lot of that was probably Akainu using Haki to defend himself, which at least somewhat softened the blows.

[Tommy]

Looking at Blackbeards newly formed crew, I wonder what the hierarchy of strength is, and what the potential matchups will be.

It seems obvious that Shiryu (sp?) would be 2nds strongest and will fight Zoro. After that I dunno. I'm really curious to whom Sanji would matchup with.

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Being a logia had nothing to do with Akainu's survival. Whitebeard was using Haki, which of course enabled him to critically injure Akainu (haki bypasses the defenses of any DF). Akainu is just very resilient.

It had nothin to do with haki. It was WB's DF power and nothing else. If WB was able to use his haki - he'd have no problem dealing with Kizaru or at least injuring him - which he clearly couldn't do.

Akainu has a physical body - WB hit that body with his EQ power and that badly injured him.

[Kallen4life]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

It had nothin to do with haki. It was WB's DF power and nothing else. If WB was able to use his haki - he'd have no problem dealing with Kizaru or at least injuring him - which he clearly couldn't do.

Akainu has a physical body - WB hit that body with his EQ power and that badly injured him.

no, it has everything to do with haki .. logia is logia - invulnerable to physical harm (WB's fruit = shockwaves, that's physical)

if a logia is intangible like Kizaru, Ace, Smoker - they simply let mass/matter pass through them

solid body, like Akainu, Aokiji, Crocodile too I guess - the body is shattered/pierced, but the user reforms it easily and with no injuries


WB couldn't injure Kizaru, because Kizaru is too fast for him (likely because of WB's age too) .. he swung his bisento at Kizaru, it was obviously haki-infused, but Kizaru manipulated his body-particles (which are damn fast, though likely not literally @ 300000 km/s) to move out of the way and the bisento had not made actual contact with them, thus no harm .. same with Aokiji, WB stabbed him, but he made a hole in his body, where the stab should've been --> no harm

something different happened when Aokiji froze the 2 tsunamis and threw ice spears @ WB, WB shattered them and the shockwave also shattered Aokiji himself, however, he suffered no injury .. likely because WB cannot infuse something like a shockwave itself with haki, only his fist/bisento .. and in Akainu's case, WB hit both times with a quake+haki infused fist

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

^ In addition to everything you said, Kallen4life, Haki's effectiveness is also dependent on the user's will. After Ace died, Whitebeard was consumed with anger/vengeance, and he would stop at absolutely nothing until Akainu paid the price. We could say here that Whitebeard's Haki was considerably greater than Akainu's at this point, which allowed him to really bring the pain on the admiral.

Logia users, regardless of their composition, are completely invincible. Barring elemental weaknesses (like water to sand), Haki is the ONLY way to oppose them.

[Kallen4life]

yep

although, I'd still wager WB's haki being greater then Akainu's

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

yep

although, I'd still wager WB's haki being greater then Akainu's

Oh I don't think there's any doubt of that.

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

no, it has everything to do with haki .. logia is logia - invulnerable to physical harm (WB's fruit = shockwaves, that's physical)

shockwaves are not "physical". shockwaves can travel through everything...magma, Ice and w.e else.

WB couldn't injure Kizaru, because Kizaru is too fast for him (likely because of WB's age too) .. he swung his bisento at Kizaru, it was obviously haki-infused, but Kizaru manipulated his body-particles (which are damn fast, though likely not literally @ 300000 km/s) to move out of the way and the bisento had not made actual contact with them, thus no harm .. same with Aokiji, WB stabbed him, but he made a hole in his body, where the stab should've been --> no harm

It had nothin to do with Kizaru being too fast. WB sliced at him to stop him from gettin to Luffy - yet the attack only knocked him off course...and not actually damage him. If Rayleigh could do it, then so can WB.

something different happened when Aokiji froze the 2 tsunamis and threw ice spears @ WB, WB shattered them and the shockwave also shattered Aokiji himself, however, he suffered no injury .. likely because WB cannot infuse something like a shockwave itself with haki, only his fist/bisento .. and in Akainu's case, WB hit both times with a quake+haki infused fist

Thats because it was a weak attack...in the air and he was a long distance away from the attack. If it was a powerful punch like that which he used against Akainu point blank...u can sure as hell bet he'd be feeling that one.


WB never used his haki at all up to what we've seen so far. If he coulda used his "Kings Haki" or w.e then he'd have done so. He got stabbed by Squard..which Marco stated he normally woulda avoided...

He never used his haki once durin the whole war that we've seen so far.
Maybe i'm the only 1 who believes this...but that is my view and i think one that is supported by the facts.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

shockwaves are not "physical". shockwaves can travel through everything...magma, Ice and w.e else.

And Akainu would have just reformed once the shockwave passed through him if Whitebeard hadn't used Haki to hit his physical body. Same with Aokiji.

[Kallen4life]

If Rayleigh could do it, then so can WB.

Rayleigh is much faster then WB .. of course WB is no slowpoke, especially considering his size and age, but he's obviously not one of the faster fighters (at least atm), whereas Kizaru is one of, or THE, fastest in OP-world

so Rayleigh can keep up with Kizaru (though not for a long time .. age and 20 years out of battle take their toll), but WB wasn't able to land a hit so far .. in fact, Kizaru's blood hadn't been drawn yet - Akainu is obvious and Aokiji had some pooling from his mouth after the tackle from Jozu (ALSO done with haki)


what you're saying implies that they both hit him, but Rayleigh's attack is stronger then WB's bisento swing .. that's impossible, WB is the Strongest Man in the World, none can match him in raw power and strength


but you can believe what you will, even if it goes against the definition of logias normally being invulnerable




about kings haki - I think he was about to use it before Luffy when Ace was about to be killed, but the illness/wound stopped him and Luffy did it

mantra - we don't know if he's used it or if he's proficient in it .. also, it doesn't guarantee you will be able to dodge if your own reflexes/speed aren't up to par .. also quite possible he allowed Squard to stab him, seeing that he isn't afraid of getting hurt in this war (as opposed to Akainu's lie) and to make Squard believe him .. it didn't hinder him that much anyway, I think he was planning to stay and hold the Marines off solo from the very beginning (how the hell did they think they would escape anyway .. kill all the marines, VA's, admirals & Sengoku and then leave ?) and he knows that his body can take monstrous amount of damage and still keep going anyway .. tank through anything is his style

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Blackbeard isn't really responsible for Ace's death. He's responsible for the war, and of course he will want retribution for him murdering Thatch.

He did beat Ace and drag him to the Navy to be executed so he's at least indirectly responsible. Besides Whitebeard's anger at him doesn't require rational thinking or for Blackbeard to 'really' be responsible. Of course that is hardly the only reason for him to want to kill Blackbeard anyways with the betrayal and the murder of Thatch.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Agreed. The only one responsible for Ace's death was Ace.

Sure Ace is definitely responsible in part for his own demise. But you don't think Akainu the one who killed him is at all responsible? Last time I checked Ace didn't throw himself into the ocean or something .

[jordantan899]

I think Luffy can beat Akainu's butt after a few more power-ups because Akainu has been beaten by Whitebeard. The stupid admiral will carry the injury until Luffy gains enough strength to claim the head of that SOB of an admiral.

P.S.

Love OP that's why I'm pissed with Akainu.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Sure Ace is definitely responsible in part for his own demise. But you don't think Akainu the one who killed him is at all responsible? Last time I checked Ace didn't throw himself into the ocean or something .

Last time I checked he thew himself in front of Akainu.

[paradox13]

Ace didn't force Akainu to kill him

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by paradox13

Ace didn't force Akainu to kill him

Ace was the one who fell for Akainu's taunts and didn't try to get the hell out of there the moment he was freed. Even Luffy was begging him not to be an idiot. He didn't listen.

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

what you're saying implies that they both hit him, but Rayleigh's attack is stronger then WB's bisento swing .. that's impossible, WB is the Strongest Man in the World, none can match him in raw power and strength

Difference is, Rayleigh used haki to hurt Kizaru. WB merely swung his bisento at the final second to stop him gettin to Luffy. If he had used Haki, he'd have cut him in half, no problem.

but you can believe what you will, even if it goes against the definition of logias normally being invulnerable

As we've seen, there are exceptions. Up until now, we never thought a logia user could overpower and kill another logia user who was still in logia mode.

WB has a special ability. EQ are shockwaves..shockwaves can travel through anything... especially solids and liquids...as is the case with Ao Kiji and Akainu. He smashed Akainu point blank with that punch...it complete distorted his entire body and damaged him. His 2nd attack he never physically connected with him - yet that attack split Marine HQ in half and took Akainu out.

about kings haki - I think he was about to use it before Luffy when Ace was about to be killed, but the illness/wound stopped him and Luffy did it

He couldn't use it. He tried but couldn't.

mantra - we don't know if he's used it or if he's proficient in it

Clearly he is. He countered every attempt by Ace to kill him, even when sleeping. He's been around for many decades - it is very unlikely he never mastered it in all that time.

.. also, it doesn't guarantee you will be able to dodge if your own reflexes/speed aren't up to par .. also quite possible he allowed Squard to stab him, seeing that he isn't afraid of getting hurt in this war (as opposed to Akainu's lie) and to make Squard believe him ..

Marco clearly stated - normally even if it were an ally, he'd see an attack like that coming and then points to the reason why he never saw it coming, was down to WB's worsening health.

it didn't hinder him that much anyway, I think he was planning to stay and hold the Marines off solo from the very beginning (how the hell did they think they would escape anyway .. kill all the marines, VA's, admirals & Sengoku and then leave ?) and he knows that his body can take monstrous amount of damage and still keep going anyway .. tank through anything is his style

I agree with this. He probably always knew this was gonna be his final battle and he never expected to leave it alive.

[Kallen4life]

I cannot say about his swing @ Kizaru, maybe that one wasn't haki-infused, but he was able to hurt Akainu because of haki

As we've seen, there are exceptions. Up until now, we never thought a logia user could overpower and kill another logia user who was still in logia mode.

every single one of them is still immune to physical damage


you're basically saying that lava is weak vs shockwaves ? that works .. how ? lava flows and reforms just as Akainu does vs any other non-haki damage he sustains .. just like Aokiji reformed after getting hit by the shockwave

He couldn't use it. He tried but couldn't.

more like clutched his chest in pain (because of illness/wound) before he could do it .. it WAS stated, that he has kings haki

If he had used Haki, he'd have cut him in half, no problem.

Kizaru would've dodged easily, he's much faster then WB .. which is what I think he did there

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Ace was the one who fell for Akainu's taunts and didn't try to get the hell out of there the moment he was freed. Even Luffy was begging him not to be an idiot. He didn't listen.

Akainu was persuing them. If he didn't fall for the taunts - there was always good old plan b which is just to use brute magma power and obliterate everything in his path. Its not like any of the pirates actually hvae the power to stop him without gettin incinterated except maybe Marco...and Joz if he wasn't frozen

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

every single one of them is still immune to physical damage

you're basically saying that lava is weak vs shockwaves ? that works .. how ? lava flows and reforms just as Akainu does vs any other non-haki damage he sustains .. just like Aokiji reformed after getting hit by the shockwave

There is no evidence that he used haki at all. No part of WB made physical contact with Akainu at all. It was his DF.
His power works in 2 ways, he either cracks the air to create shockwaves or he concentrates all that power into an orb thingy like he did and punches em with it....I fail to see how exactly he manages to infuse his haki in such attacks...

There are exceptions to everything.