Blood-C (CLAMP x Production IG)

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

[snip]He's got an ideal, and he's a fanatic clinging to it. He's lost touch with reality, by working way too long with Furukimono. [snip]

So a decided, "no" to the "good guy". He's a fanatic, and probably too far gone for atonement.

Thanks for the detailed clarification.

I said that Fumito was a "good guy" since, in your hypothesis, his goal is to enable Saya to broker the best possible outcome in the conflict between the humans and furukimonos. He wears the retrospective halo of the "good" ending he is working toward. That is not to say he is in fact good. Or even that the end he envisages is good either.

I very much appreciated your characterization of Fumito, especially your tale of moral compromises and corruption by association with monsters. Such a story would have been in its way just as horrifying as Saya's, had the writers chosen to tell it. I would have liked to have seen that!

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

But as long as Saya is free to do what she wants she's a reminder to both sides, that there's no such thing as a free lunch. I mean, as powerful as Saya might be, she won't really make a dent in the Furikimono population, nor will she single-handedly stop wars. But she is a potential threat to both sides - given the proper motivation.

"Free lunch"

Magic and screenwriters' license make anything possible.

I would like to know more about just how Fumito controlled the furukimono using Saya's blood. We get two references: the first to the talismans the actors wear to protect themselves, and the second to the mirror that Fumito breaks to summon the Bunny Monster. Both of these devices seem clearly magical. In that case I wonder if Fumito is not a magician or a sorcerer? This would certainly fit with the show's hallmark blending of the human and the magical worlds, as evidenced by Saya herself, by Tadayoshi, and almost certainly the dog.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

"If you hadn't been tranquilised, I don't think even he could have handled you." Or something like that. I think he was executing Tadayoshi, not trying to get rid of Saya. And I don't think it's a co-incidence that the guy who took care of her is half-human and half-Furukimono. Saya can't pick a side on account of that "loss". See?

Yes, I think you're right. And nice catch, too. In fact it's especially nice just since Saya is not actually related to Tadayoshi. Her choice of action will be her choice, just as she chooses in some sense for Tadayoshi to be her father.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

There's no rising to the occasion. Ultimately, I think, Fumito is a pessimist, and - as destructive as she might turn out to be - an autonomous Saya with no ties to either side - is the best hope the world will get. But to be fully autonomous, she needs to understand the situation, as I said, from without and within. She has now memories of what it's like to be human, whatever she does with it. There's no going back. "You're not like that," includes the implication, "But you remember what it's like to be that."

And what does that mean to Saya? A loss? An embarrassment?

Neither, really. The moments where Saya cradles the dying Tadayoshi and acknowledges him as her father, or when she tears remembering her friends, prove that on an emotional level Saya retains the moral values bound up in the world Fumito has indoctrinated her into. I don't believe Saya can perceive that as a loss, even though on a meta level it arises from a clear infringement upon her autonomy.

The story seems to suggest that these values are open to humans and furukimono alike: they are not human but universal. So the division in kind between human and furukimono does not really exist. There are different axes at play: power, tastes, physical shape, etc. But these unite humans and furukimonos along a spectrum, and do not separate them.

That is a really excellent description of where Saya's experience leaves her, by the way.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

I don't think his statement had anything to do with his opinion of the quality of the show.

The fact is "gore and schoolgirls" ARE the main negative stereotypes of anime. That's not a matter of opinion, and the entire Blood series plays into those stereotypes.

Thank you - I wasn't going to bother...

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

I said that Fumito was a "good guy" since, in your hypothesis, his goal is to enable Saya to broker the best possible outcome in the conflict between the humans and furukimonos. He wears the retrospective halo of the "good" ending he is working toward. That is not to say he is in fact good. Or even that the end he envisages is good either.

Ah, thank you for the clarification. I misunderstood.

I very much appreciated your characterization of Fumito, especially your tale of moral compromises and corruption by association with monsters. Such a story would have been in its way just as horrifying as Saya's, had the writers chosen to tell it. I would have liked to have seen that!

That wouldbe a very interesting story, wouldn't it? But, of course, it can only be true if we make certain assumptions:

a) Fumito wasn't a sociopath when he took the job. (Estimate: Possible to Likely)
b) Fumito is human. (Estimate: very, very likely - although Fumito being a Furukimono has certain intriguing points, too; mimic enough to fool his superiors? controlled himself, and using Saya to break free?)

"Free lunch"

Heh, pun unintentional.

I would like to know more about just how Fumito controlled the furukimono using Saya's blood. We get two references: the first to the talismans the actors wear to protect themselves, and the second to the mirror that Fumito breaks to summon the Bunny Monster. Both of these devices seem clearly magical. In that case I wonder if Fumito is not a magician or a sorcerer? This would certainly fit with the show's hallmark blending of the human and the magical worlds, as evidenced by Saya herself, by Tadayoshi, and almost certainly the dog.

And yet, there's that lab-environment, experiments, etc. That would be interesting. To me, especially in its practical implications: can they make these talismans, or do they have a limited stock? Questions like these.

Neither, really. The moments where Saya cradles the dying Tadayoshi and acknowledges him as her father, or when she tears remembering her friends, prove that on an emotional level Saya retains the moral values bound up in the world Fumito has indoctrinated her into. I don't believe Saya can perceive that as a loss, even though on a meta level it arises from a clear infringement upon her autonomy.

...

Makes sense to me.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Ah yes, reinforce every negative stereotype the ignorant majority has about anime. There's some good long-term planning right there.

Eh. At least it's not sexualized little girls. Or some brand new stereotype they could hype up. (though I'm a bit at a loss as to what new thing they could inflict on unsuspecting audiences.)

[creb]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

(though I'm a bit at a loss as to what new thing they could inflict on unsuspecting audiences.)

I'm still waiting for The Twelve Kingdoms to be rewritten in a modern setting, and all dialog redone as Japanese rap.

[windziko]

Not sure if it has been speculated here yet, but does anyone besides me think that Itsuki may still be alive and might even show up in the upcoming Blood-C movie?

The thing is, everyone from the main cast has died at least once before the whole experiment was revealed to Saya, except for Fumito, Tsutsutori, and Itsuki. (Since Fumito was behind all the attacks from the furukimono, I'll exclude him.)

Then when episode 12 happens, Tokizane is the first to die permanently when it is revealed that Fumito had given him a fake talisman after his first death when he defected to Tsutsutori's group. The same case with the twins, Nono and Nene.

Then Tsutsutori dies for the first time, but let's assumed that it is a permanent death since Fumito surmised that she would defect from the very beginning, thus she had a fake talisman to begin with.

As for Yuuka, she died once and is still sided with Fumito, but it wasn't revealed whether her current (2nd) talisman is real or fake since she is the only person from the main cast to survive the finale aside from Fumito. Not as important right now, but it might be crucial in the upcoming movie.

Finally, there's Itsuki, who has yet to die before episode 12. He hasn't defected to Tsutsutori's group, but his first death was from trying to protect Saya from bullets. However, assuming that he is still holding on to the same talisman he had from the beginning as part of the main cast, there isn't any proof on whether his current talisman was real or fake, and thus, whether he still has a chance of being alive.

...Unless I missed a part where they said the talisman only works on attacks from furukimono, then everything I speculated is entirely wrong. Did they ever mention if this part is a known fact? (There's way too many pages for me to skim through. )

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by windziko

...Unless I missed a part where they said the talisman only works on attacks from furukimono, then everything I speculated is entirely wrong. Did they ever mention if this part is a known fact? (There's way too many pages for me to skim through. )

They didn't mention it, but they'd showed it. The talismen had the same mark as that mirror like thing Fumito broke to unleash all hell...

Chances are very good the talismans had some of Saya's blood in it and were a variant on whatever he was using to control them. I.e. they aren't magic that'll protect you from bullets. The other deaths were all staged fakes.

[windziko]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

They didn't mention it, but they'd showed it. The talismen had the same mark as that mirror like thing Fumito broke to unleash all hell...

Chances are very good the talismans had some of Saya's blood in it and were a variant on whatever he was using to control them. I.e. they aren't magic that'll protect you from bullets. The other deaths were all staged fakes.

I see...almost forgot about that mirror bit. At least now I know that the mirror is somewhat connected to the talismans. Perhaps the talismans are rendered useless as soon as Fumito broke that mirror? Sorry, I'm still a little confused about how the talismans work exactly...but thanks for a better clarification.

[patnam]

in this TV series, the bad guy (Fumito) wins... in movie version, Saya sure get her revenge very badly...

however, hope Saya would need some companion or allies to be with, because there sure more furukimono(s) to deal with in upcoming movie... (Tokyo Massacre)

[Kameruka]

I'm quite interested this show though I still haven't seen it yet. As from preview all I can say is seinen answer to Yami no Matsuei, only better.

[hyperborealis]

Compare & Contrast with Blood+. All in spoilers for those who have not seen the latter.

Spoiler for contains Blood+ material:

Both shows emphasize that humanity is not a natural or intrinsic quality, but a choice. Saya Otonashi chooses her adoptive, human family over her Chiropteran nature and blood relationship with Diva. Saya Kisaragi chooses to identify herself with her human "friends," even after she discovers she herself is not human and her schoolmates are imposters. The franchise is consistent in treating "blood" in any sense of destiny in an ironic fashion.

The key ground for Otonashi is her family relationship with George, Kai, and Riku. This is a real family, all the more so given that none of its members are actually related to each other. This Saya's goals are always to protect her family, and eventually to return to it, to the initial happy home on Okinawa. Likewise, we will find out that Diva and even her chevaliers seek to create families for themselves. Nathan will make this point about Diva, when he says after her death that all she ever wanted was a family. Solomon wants to pair off with Saya. And even Amshiel seeks to create a world in which everyone is related to Diva, by making them all Chiropterans.

Blood-C subverts this idea of the family as a sacred ground by making Kisaragi's domestic world a farce, the product of Fumito's government-sponsored machinations. Just as Blood+ imagined the Chiropterans' public existence as a US government plot (instigated by Amshiel's secret plotting), Blood-C domesticates and internalizes that same plot in Kisaragi's own consciousness and memories. However, Blood-C ups the ante, so to speak, on Blood+ by identifying family and human bonds as explicitly fictional but then insisting that these bonds are still paramount.

Blood-C shows that family as a value is what counts, even if it is the product of a conspiracy, and not its natural basis. So Blood-C is a deconstruction of the earlier show's limited conception of family and a confirmation of the same value on a more abstract level.

Paradoxically, what screws up life for Otonashi and her sister is precisely the bad parenting both received at the hands of their earlier adoptive parent, Joel Goldschmidt. By raising Saya in privilege and Diva in bondage, Joel creates a lasting enmity between the two sisters that works itself out in the 50 episode narrative of the series. Obviously that is true for Diva, but it is also true for Saya. When she finally decides not to kill Diva's children, and to go back upon her early decision to kill Diva and then herself, the viewer learns that her century-long mission to fight her sister was essentially misguided. The guilt that compels her in this error is the product of her upbringing, and is ultimately Joel's fault.

So the first show clearly specifies that nurture, not nature, is basic. Blood+ gives us upbringings that are tragic in their outcomes. It is only Saya's happy family life in Okinawa that finally restores her to a happy, and not tragic, future.

Blood-C makes the issue of nature versus nurture central to the plot, as the question Fumito wants to resolve with his bet with Kisaragi. In Blood-C the tragedy lies not in a bad upbringing, but precisely in its perfect and idyllic character. It exists to be broken: to be exposed as a lie, when Kisaragi discovers its fictional character, and to be experienced as an absolute loss, when Kisaragi discovers that she is not human. The chief difference between the series lies here: in Blood+ Otonashi discovers early on her Chiropteran nature, and comes to terms with it over an extended period of time; while in Blood-C, this discovery in concentrated in a moment, and is experienced as a crisis which is the climax of the show. The domestic ideal turns out to be itself a form of manipulation, which Fumito uses to set up Kisaragi and to torture her with its destruction. In the end, Kisaragi will hold on to the memories of her father and her friends, but she in doing so she commits herself to a fiction. Nevertheless, I think we are to understand that the value is real, even if she affirms it as an imagined reality.

Bottom line: Blood-C extends Blood+'s affirmation of choice against nature, to include the choice of an imagined reality to actual fact. Not only humanity but reality itself is a choice.

I find this a little unsettling. Shouldn't there be reality-testing for our ideals and values? Or is it really the case that we can never get outside those ideals and values anyway, that there is no "outside ourselves" to stand on, and that all we have then is a fictive truth?

[Dawnstorm]

That's a very interesting analysis.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

I find this a little unsettling. Shouldn't there be reality-testing for our ideals and values? Or is it really the case that we can never get outside those ideals and values anyway, that there is no "outside ourselves" to stand on, and that all we have then is a fictive truth?

Well, Blood+ was a show with humanist ideals; Blood-C was more of a naturalist show (especially behaviourism seems relevant). The former makes a moral point, but the latter doesn't - at least not on the same level. I can't see Blood-C taking a moral stand, other than presenting you with a situation that undermines the centrality of humanist values, such as choice.

One problem we have is the story of Blood-C is not yet finished, and depending on how the film plays out, things might yet change. But one thing right now: "...we can never get outside those ideals..." This "never", I think, is not warranted. Morals - to me - are a sort of addiction to a brain-state constellation (metaphorically, not literally). And you can kick an addiction; but it's not easy. A choice and its implementation aren't the same thing: you can choose to change, but you need to re-affirm that choice every step along the way, and the road is long enough for your goals to change with yourself. You're an organism who will never fully understand itself, because the very act of understanding changes you.

Saya's situation is extreme: everything has been drawn out from under her, so what else does she have to fall back on but habit?`Note that this a matter not of "What am I going to do now?" but a matter of "What am I going to want to do now?" The Saya of that moment literally has little else to sustain her but habit.

Ultimately, Saya won't be able to ignore her past feelings. After all, a body collects traces of what it's been going through, and - whether or not you think you have a soul - you know you have a body.

So I'd say that we're not at a comparable point in the story, between the two series. You'll have to await the outcome of the film for finishing this off.

[hyperborealis]

Dawnstorm, thanks.

A clarification: we can't get outside of some frame of reference, some value structure. Even if we change ourselves in the way you describe, we can only do so from some point of view.

I agree that Blood-C calls into question "the centrality of humanist values," as you put it. If Saya's domestic feelings and commitments are simply constructs of Fumito's making, then her moral perspective is simply the mask of a superior power. This is Nietzsche's critique of morality; Blood-C echoes it.

But the behaviorism you specify really pertains only to Fumito's perspective. Saya by contrast has really experienced friends and father: the fact that they were in fact neither is immaterial to the reality of her subjective experience. If she holds on to her experiences out of habit, if she knows intellectually they are lies, they are nonetheless still subjectively real to her.

If Blood-C is at a midpoint, to what does it compare in Blood+?

Spoiler:

Oddly, Kisaragi resembles Diva after she escapes her confinement: both are motivated by thoughts of revenge against the scientist/father-figure who constructed and manipulated them. But unlike Diva, Kisaragi has, like Otonashi, experienced real feelings of family and friends. So Kisaragi is also motivated to act on behalf of the memory of her faux companions. In some sense, Blood-C Saya is a volatile combination of Otonashi and Diva at once.

The conclusion can go in many directions, but I doubt we will get an amoral one. You will note that Blood-C's director, Tsutomu Mizushima, said that "The theme of this series as I'm trying to convey it is “never stop believing in yourself.”" I admit I laughed when I read that...

[Dawnstorm]

I pretty much agree with you in your last post.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

If Blood-C is at a midpoint, to what does it compare in Blood+?

I wondered about that, too, but it's too hard to compare, partly because of the very different approach to characterisation and plot, and partly because I don't remember Blood+ too well.

[HasuMasu]

Just finished this awhile ago, damn, I heard there would be a movie? Looking forward to it.

I knew the cafe dude was a bad-ass from the start, I just knew it.

[mangalowres]

This show was so meaningless for me.
After her school mates "died" I thought that something would happen ... I don't know what but not this nonsense of an end.

Really, for me this show is one of the worst I have ever seen. Oh but don't worry my "worst"-list is not short




This is just my humble opinion.

[Kanon]

Spoiler for Movie:

Saya looks so much better than in the TV series.

[HasuMasu]

She gets her eye back? Nice.

[Sol Falling]

? "The Last Dark" as opposed to "The Last Vampire"? lol.

[fertygo]

Damn.. the movie looked glorious...
They should walk at this road from the start. Movie trilogy would've been make this series got better responses.