Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[FreezeGeass]

Hm...now that most of the arguments have died down, I think I'm going to go ahead and give my thoughts on the show and such. Kind of long so I apologize, feel free to skip.

It was incredible. Sometimes, I long for the days when I was a kid. When I was easily amused and even the most basic cartoons on weekend mornings were entertaining enough to keep me captivated. Of course, you grow, and you become harder to entertain....it takes more skill, a better story. And Code Geass took me back to all of that. It was a fantastic story, amazing cast, plot was incredible and paced so well. Anime for me has always been something like spinning a Roulette wheel, getting something good is purely chance. Good animes are rare and spotting them was hard to find and I was lucky if I did, like diamonds in the rough. The market has become saturated with too much of the same...quests to defeat X villain while powering up...tale of revenge (ok yeah, code geass was a tale of revenge, but not your stock standard story)...obscenely over powered protagonists that could never be stopped due to some hidden store of potential...brainless, predictable plots. They're everywhere. Classics aside, the only anime I can say I truely have enjoyed during the last 4 years or so are Samurai Champloo, Death Note (well, the first half anyway), and Code Geass. So naturally I was thrilled when I came across this show. The twists, the cast of multilayered and not entirely predictable characters, the story pacing, the tactical back and forth like a game of mental chess were all captivating. I felt like season 1 set up an absolutely amazing story. The show wasn't afraid to kill off good characters, or have tragedies occur. The mecha battles were not an obscenely overdone aspect of the show. The secondary characters, albeit numerous, were properly fleshed out. And most importantly, there was not some absolute, black and white seperation of good and evil. People acted realistically. Good people occasionally did bad things, and vice versa. The show had a large gray area of moral ambiguity they weren't afraid to explore. People didn't act 100% noble or 100% deplorable (except for maybe Suzaku. he was kind of annoying like that).

In season 2 however, things hit a bit of a snag. The secondary cast blew the fuck up out of NOWHERE. These characters weren't fleshed out, and some events (particularly the political moves made by the Black Knights, Zero, etc) were simply too rushed to make much sense. I honestly think that aspect of the show could have been paced more effectively, and the newer characters given enough background story, to allow for a third season. Examples that come to mind are the Order of Knights or w/e it was called that Suzaku joined...few of them were given screen time or story, and when it became convenient, the majority of them were simply killed off in a fast battle where Suzaku basically wrecked all of them in the span of a few minutes. Then there was the whole part of the story with Marianne and Charles actually working together to create the new world...I don't know, something about that just didn't ring right with me. I felt like the writers originally intended to do something else with that part of the story, but then scrapped it in favor of how the show ended up going, then they remembered that it was a loose thread they had to tie up so they wrapped it up with some less than satisfactory episode. The entire first season Lelouch is trying to avenge his mother and overcome his father, and he just casually brushes them both aside in the end of one episode? What's up with that?

Basically, there were a lot of moments like that which made me feel like the story was drastically altered at some point of the planning. Maybe it was when the writers knew they were getting a full second season, and not just an OVA or single season. Maybe it was the time slot change people have mentioned. I don't know. Nonetheless, for its negatives, there were positives as well. I feel like the show got darker and grittier, we had some amazing character deaths (like Rolo), and the plot was still satisfactory overall, if not a massive deviation from the way things looked to be going in season 1. I do kind of miss the more casual days of Ashford Academy and the characters from there that sort of got pushed aside in R2.

In retrospect, I wish there were more Geass users, and more Geass vs Geass battles. Lelouch usually had to use his intellect to win those and there were some of the most entertaining to watch. I felt like a lot more could have been done with that part of the show. That was also another aspect of the show I feel that faded in R2, the cunning plots. Lelouch still had good plans from time to time, but they were usually political in nature and that aspect of the show was much harder to follow in its rushed R2 pacing. I'd also be curious in finding out what the original plan/script for R2 was, if any. Overall the experience was still amazing even if R2 was worse in some aspects than its predecessor...and unfortunately this show will probably be one of the last great animes I ever get to watch.

[Esper 28]

Originally Posted by Monkey D. Luffy

I thought the ending to this series was good/solid this way everybody gets to make their perfect conclusion and draw out the rest of the story as they see fit. Personally, I would of liked to see an ending where they tied things up as fit as they saw possible and with not too many lingering questions as to the resolution of the whole story. Guess it wasn't meant to be. Now you have all the Code Geass fans and fanatics dissecting every single frame and line as to prove their point as redundant or as fun as it can be made and conceived. Which is nice because it's the mark of a series that has touched many people to the point where they actually want to draw out as solid a canon as can be scraped from what was given in the finale.

I would of liked to known what happened at the end, what happened to the protagonist of the story, what was his fate? I've always liked tragic heroes in fiction, reality wherever they may be found, so I have to admit that I would of liked a definite resolve. I would of liked to known if he did fit the role of tragic hero or if he went on to play chess for the rest of his life. As solid as the ending was in my eyes, there is also however that void that remains.

With that said I have to say this was a very good series, some will say it lived up to the hype some will say the opposite. I won't say that I hope that there is more Code Geass or that there should be so that they can close the remaining questions, because if there was then the reasoning to which they concluded the series would of been a fault and a shortcoming. This is the end how as it was given to us so let it be, as happy and satisfied or as disappointed and frustrated as some fans may be. I'll have to say I stand in middle ground.

Honestly, I think you've summed up my feelings on this series pretty well. For me, this series had high points and low points, each of them being extreme. But regardless of the highs and lows, it was still a solid series and that's why, as long as there's room, I'm going to stand in that middle ground, too.

But I'm still bummed that Cornelia never got to get inside a KMF at any point during the second season. Total bummer, man.

[Leon_Lelouch]

hmm... can't talk too much for this episod....
well... it's a good way to end this series even though I prefer it not to be like that....

after watching this episode..... Now I know that I really really hate the ending SONG......
'Continued Story' from Hitome was already good to give the sad feeling.... but it's been ruined by the song from Ali Project.....-_-

[Lord Ryo]

Originally Posted by Leon_Lelouch

hmm... can't talk too much for this episod....
well... it's a good way to end this series even though I prefer it not to be like that....

after watching this episode..... Now I know that I really really hate the ending SONG......
'Continued Story' from Hitome was already good to give the sad feeling.... but it's been ruined by the song from Ali Project.....-_-

Yeah, I was expecting the whole ending sequence to be played out with the Hitomi song but when they played Yuukyou Seishunka I thought it kinda ruined the moment. Which sucked since the ending was so perfect.

[Aethos]

It's just a shame Fabulouch had to die.

You know maybe Ohgi will do such a crappy job that people will hate him more than they ever did Fabulouch and have the ally of justice kill him off. That would be GOOD END.

[Lord Ryo]

They should have killed Ohgi's ass in the first season. With everything Zero did for them he still came up with stupid ideas to doubt him. So yeah, Zero really did those things, but it was for the better, and had no reason to suspect him other than just wanting to betray him.

[Aethos]

Originally Posted by Lord Ryo

They should have killed Ohgi's ass in the first season. With everything Zero did for them he still came up with stupid ideas to doubt him. So yeah, Zero really did those things, but it was for the better, and had no reason to suspect him other than just wanting to betray him.

Well you have to admit. Lelouch did accomplish more faster without the fail knights tagging along.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Lord Ryo

They should have killed Ohgi's ass in the first season. With everything Zero did for them he still came up with stupid ideas to doubt him. So yeah, Zero really did those things, but it was for the better, and had no reason to suspect him other than just wanting to betray him.

Yes, because Lelouch would never kill anyone innocent

oh wait he would and he did, just because he sacrificed himself doesn't make what he did earlier any less wrong.

If someone is spamming a geass, than I would fear it as well.

Your blaming a group decision on one man.

[Aethos]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Yes, because Lelouch would never kill anyone innocent

oh wait he would and he did, just because he sacrificed himself doesn't make what he did earlier any less wrong.

If someone is spamming a geass, than I would fear it as well.

Your blaming a group decision on one man.

Yeah like killing the geass cult was like killing actual innocent people.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Aethos

Yeah like killing the geass cult was like killing actual innocent people.

Those children didn't ask to be given Geass, if Rolo could be reformed than they could have as well.

Also the killing of Shirley's father, the destruction of the JLF, the brainwashing of soldiers.

[Lord Ryo]

Originally Posted by Aethos

Well you have to admit. Lelouch did accomplish more faster without the fail knights tagging along.

All the more reason to kill him!

And it does suck because I did like Ohgi at first, but after secretly harboring Villetta from Zero, that just started it. I just didn't like how the character changed and his reasons for wanting to stop Zero. He went from wanting to destroy Britannia by any means to playing it fair against them. *shrugs* Go figure...

[Lord Ryo]

Well yeah, as much as it sucked for theose innocent people in the geass cult to die, it was better off that they did die. As we've seen, geass brings about destruction, the wrld would have been better off without any geass.

[Aethos]

Originally Posted by Lord Ryo

All the more reason to kill him!

And it does suck because I did like Ohgi at first, but after secretly harboring Villetta from Zero, that just started it. I just didn't like how the character changed and his reasons for wanting to stop Zero. He went from wanting to destroy Britannia by any means to playing it fair against them. *shrugs* Go figure...

I didn't give two shits about Ohgi to be honest. He would have been cooler though had he kept his sex life separate from his black knights membership.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Those children didn't ask to be given Geass, if Rolo could be reformed than they could have as well.

Which is why they were attacking the black knights right? Such innocent kids.

[Knight_of_Zero]

Man, Villeta HAD to miss, didn't she. A bit higher up and BAM he's dead.

(I mean Ep 24-25, R1)

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by pokeu

Well, one more clue to cue us in... it is not necessarily true that the geass user has to KILL the code bearer to gain the code.

In turn 15, when Lelouche was talking with his father in the Sword of Akasha, C.C. found V.V. sitting outside the doors. She noticed that he had lost his code, but he wasn't dead (though he was close to it, dark eye shadows and blood all over). And what did he do? He said... "It is because I am you older brother... ", then he passed on.

C.C. wouldn't have... "V.V.... you!..." if he hadn't lost his code.

He lost his code before he died.

And as we can also assume quite accurately... when the code is transfered, the code bearer and the geass user has to somewhat come into direct contact.

Above is fairly obvious. Note also your remark about dark eye shadows been a sign of death. Immortals never recieve dark eye shadows when they are killed, as seen in previous instances of C.C. and V.V.'s deaths. Charles did not have dark eye shadows upon shooting himself either.

Another thing we can tell is that... the code can remain passive, activating only upon the new bearer's death.

No evidence supporting this whatsoever. As has been earlier explained, Charles was shown to be immune to geass before he died. The animation used when Lelouch's geass was entering Charles' eyes before he shot himself was explicitly reused later in the episode when Lelouch tried to geass him again upon realizing he was immortal.

Anyway.. one more thing.... why did Charle's want both codes?

To complete the Ragnorok Connection. This was stated flat out in Turn 21.

If we look at season 1... and start of season 2... we can see that he has been hunting for her. But after taking his brother's code... why did he still want her?

o.O

Heh.

So we can also know that...

The code does not necessarily need to pass from the geass giver. C.C. remarked that Charles has reached the level where his geass was potent enough for her to hand over the code, but we know he recieved his geass from V.V.

The code can be passed from code bearer to code bearer (because C.C. knew that Charles took V.V.'s code, and she nearly gaver him hers)

This fact discourages the 'Code Geass" theory. If Codes do not require a 'signature' to transfer, i.e. some sort of marker which would indicate that the Code matches with a geass's contractor, such that Codes are generically inheritable to any geass, then there is no logical reason why inheriting a Code from another contractor would not eliminate your geass.

So now we come to this...

Even if C.C. did give Lelouche her code... she wouldn't have to die! ... that is an exploitable plot hole to explain Lelouch's revival... which is bad.

She would, however, have to lose her memories. This would be true in Charles' case too. In both cases, it didn't happepn.

But here, we are assuming that Lelouche got his father's code... and from what we know... he can TAKE IT...

There's actually no proof for this statement. Dual geass eyes are not sufficient to complete the inheritance, as we saw in the case of Mao.

V.V. didn't want to give up his code... he was begging for help... saying that "In the end, the only dependable person is my brother"

But it was taken from him. He was too weak to reject Charle's taking of his code.... we can assume that too because... C.C. managed to resist him later on in the episode when she changed her mind.

Her only resistance was some physical interference. Charles would likely have continued without her cooperation had Lelouch not destroyed the Sword of Akasha.

Sooooo it all boils down to this...

Would Lelouche have taken the opportunity of Charle's choke to take his geass and get him to "DISSAPEAR!" ?

Maybe.

No. If he had done this they would have shown it. Note also that Marianne dies at the same time as Charles--this indicates both that it was Jupiter that killed them, not Lelouch, and that Charles' death had nothing to do with his Code.

So here is the summary:

1. Code can pass from Code bearer to Code Bearer.

2. Code can be taken from Code bearers without killing them... (as long as they are unable to resist)

3. Some form of direct contact is required for the code to be passed on... (the pose C.C. n Charles were doing... wonder if he did that to V.V. too?)

True.

4. Geass users who have taken the code must DIE before the code is activated... so it seems. (Well... it was pretty consistent for Charles and C.C., we cann't tell of V.V.'s case.... and Lelouche's looks similar)

5. When your code activates... it seems that that is when you lose your geass. (OK... I know this one is too ambiguous because most geass users who have recieved the code often die before expressing any sort of geass powers.... and Lelouch was going around whole of Britainia doing otherwise...)

Refuted above.

6. C.C. could've used Charles long ago to end her experience... but she sook out Lelouche instead and remained in hiding... her true wish wasn't as simple as just dying... because she could have easily gone back to Charles and left Lelouche for Instrumentality anyway... -_-; Charles wasn't going to kill him anyway... he didn't have to.

7. With respect to point 6..... we can tell that C.C. went with Lelouche for more reasons that just to use him -_-;. So... finally... the end... why is she HAPPY!?

Here's a question. Why is Kallen happy? The man she loved is dead. Someone she'd been willing to die for. Could it be that she'd found something to live for? That she appreciated Lelouch's sacrifice for the world? Maybe she was looking forward to tomorrow. That sounds like it'd be what Lelouch wanted, doesn't it? That sound's pretty likely to be true.

Hm...well, in that case... So then--maybe, just maybe--couldn't that be the same for C.C.? Shocking, I know, isn't it?!

But actually, to end this:

Why do series like these have plot holes? Because they are meant to be exploited -_-;

Hahaha, you (and so many others) wish. The truth is, plot holes in this show though there may be, there are none as to Lelouch's death. The ending is perfectly unambiguous. Here, a present for you:

Spoiler for cart driver:

This is a zoomed in pic of your beloved wagondriver-chan. I printscreened it myself from my copy of Turn 25, but I really encourage you guys to all go check. The first thing I'd like to point out to you all is that wagondriver-chan is not masked at all. Sure he's wearing a pretty spiffy hat, but as you can clearly see the line for his mouth, you'll realize that there's nothing at all covering his face.

The second thing, then, is something you should really be able to pick up following from that. Wagondriver has whiskers! White ones at that. Nice, scruffy, old-guy whiskers all over his firm jaw and manly chin. Ooh I wonder, what could that mean?

So sorry, guys. That man is not Lelouch. If it brings you any consolation, though, I'll totally support this new C.C. x Old Peasant Dude from the Countryside for all eternity pairing if you guys decide that's really what she needs for happiness.

Ah, I'll address this briefly as well:

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

But does Suzaku have the depth of thought to "control" Schniezel effectively? Say he asks for his advice on something, he's still getting the calculating prince and how does he extract good strategy from him without suppressing his real abilities because of the geass? The point is Suzaku and Nunally are basically gonna control the world now with Schniezel as their puppy, just saying that's alot of conclusive-story faith on a character who has never shown any level of decisive thinking, but maybe that's too much to think about, so maybe we need to start clinging to the hope of a Lulu Rice-Farmer...Eh...

Now, now, wingdarkness. :P We needn't cling to hope which isn't there. Although I don't quite appreciate the way you're disparaging Suzaku's competence and capabilities, the real issue here is that all of you complaining on the grounds of politics have missed the big picture. Charles said it in 21: "Ultimately, good will and ill will are two sides of the same card." Schniezel asked correctly in 24: "You, who have continually denied people their will, have come here to approve of people's will and existance?" What Lelouch believes in isn't world peace or harmony. What he believes is that tomorrow will be better than today, because it is driven forward by people's desire to seek happiness. As such, he--who has caused many tragedies, and gotten where he is, only through enforcing his will over others--removed himself, so that everybody could move forward on their own two feet, without his good will and ill will to bind them.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Stream

...and the ending made no sense, but then again, that goes for most of the series. You kinda just go with it.



That joke was taken way, way, WAYYY too far.

What exactly made no sense? People constantly say this but never give any example. Talk about your empty statements...

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Aethos

I didn't give two shits about Ohgi to be honest. He would have been cooler though had he kept his sex life separate from his black knights membership.



Which is why they were attacking the black knights right? Such innocent kids.

That's why I said reformed

[FreshSalad]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

So sorry, guys. That man is not Lelouch. If it brings you any consolation, though, I'll totally support this new C.C. x Old Peasant Dude from the Countryside for all eternity pairing if you guys decide that's what she needs for happiness.

Ah, I'll address this briefly as well:



Now, now, wingdarkness. :P We needn't cling to hope which isn't there. Although I don't quite appreciate the way you're disparaging Suzaku's competence and capabilities, the real issue here is that all of you complaining on the grounds of politics have missed the big picture. Charles said it in 21: "Ultimately, good will and ill will are to sides of the same card." Schniezel said it again in 24: "You, who have continually denied people their will, have come here to approve of people's will and existance". What Lelouch believes in isn't world peace or harmony. What he believes is that tomorrow will be better than today, because it is driven forward by people's desire to seek happiness. As such, he--who has caused many tragedies, and gotten where he is, only through enforcing his will over others--removed himself, so that everybody could move forward on their own two feet, without his good will and ill will to bind them.

Um.. I don't you can make the statement "that man is not lelouch."
Obviously its ambiguous, no doubts about that.
As its been mentioned OVER AND OVER again, why is it ambiguous?
simply because the creators wanted it to be that it COULD be interpreted it either way. If you haven't noticed, there is a WHOLE SHIT LOAD of evidence that suggests that either one could have happened. For exapmle, the transfer of memories to Nunally. You interpret it as a) hes immortal b)she has mind reading powers c) something else. Clearly they don't TELL you for a reason. Most likely cause the creator wants to be able to continue the series if he wanted too. But yet the fact that he LINGERS on the cart driver in which the moment could have C2 gazing into the sky on a horse shows that the probability of lelouch being alive is 60%. Why? Simply because its easier for the creator to bring back the character in this context than it is to kill him off. Sure, he could say, oh that was random driver, but the question of why would be asked.

So overall
Conclusion = He is supposed to both, as the creator wanted it to be until he figures out what the hell he wants to do.

So therefore, LELOUCHDIE AND LELOUCHALIVE fans, im sorry but both of you are right until further evidence is produced. And guys, don't try to search for more evidence, its probable that in ep 25 etc there is no evidence that is infalliable.

Also, lelouch sort of failed (great endeavor though) in his final strategy. He created a world that resembles our world, which is pretty fail. I thought he should have instead fixed the world, created a dictatorship that selects its successor through some sort of program that everyone can attend etc. basically, not attempt to create our world. There will always be war so he really prevented not much. Think the failure of the logic of him being the hate of everything saving the world shows that they purposely wanted to make an ending in which he would die. O well, great ideals, sucks it wouldn't work.

[IIKII]

Feel that CC cried not because lulu is going to die but instead lulu is going to live as a immortal and to be with her forever which makes her cried happily? or lulu being a immortal is far more worse than being dead.

[nutype]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

What exactly made no sense? People constantly say this but never give any example. Talk about your empty statements...

for starters Lelouche didnt have to kill himself to accomplish what he wanted to do. There were 100's of possible solutions especially with his standing as ruler of the world and his geass (not to mention his intellect). His actions make no sense and it's not very convincing at all.

Secondly the episodes never made any sense of Geass & code stuff which are PIVOTAL to the plot. If you dont answer these questions the plot doesn't make much sense. It made no sense for the writer(s) to leave these questions unanswered. I'm talking about the pivotal stuff here, I can go on and talk about CC's name, Xingke's illness, the seizure at the SAZ meeting etc etc etc...

This was a troll ending and I feel sorry for Taniguchi who might of been forced into doing this for sunrise.