ROME - Team Collaboration Tool For Fansubber

[silverado]

I thought about using Git but we aren't going to use repositories. Just for the wiki, which works without problems.

"you can't win a significant amount of efficiency over IRC-based coordination, and it certainly won't be with web interfaces like yours.", using a web interface can be useful if you want to plan projects without being online for a great part of your time. New groups who don't totally rely on irc yet can also benefit from the straightforward desiged user interface.

[asunder]

Originally Posted by TGEN

P.S.
If you want to use a VCS for recording history, I'd suggest a DVCS like Git or Mercurial over a centralised one like CVS or SVN (no, SVK is no alternative), because it allows your team members to commit intermediate files, revert etc and then roll them all into one commit to push upstream; also facilitating them to work offline.

In the past, I used to have a local CVS account (where I could do what you've said above) and a central CVS server account at the same time. have things really changed that much?

[[darkfire]]

RealTime Communication:

I admit that all my communication is not done in RealTime(TM), but IRC gives me the option to do this.

Why doesn't RedMine give you RealTime(TM) communication, because it requires the user to be

1. Registered with it.
2. Actively checking the site or email
3. Refreshing the page, There is no javascript updates.

Let me compare RedMine with my core usage of irc in fansubbing sense.

Issues and Tracking

Frankly I don't want to track stuff I don't care how long people take to do things or setting due dates. RedMine offers this, I don't need this. A tiny update to the topic suffices.
Redmine allows you to put extra text aka descriptions. Fansubbing task are kind of self explanitory. MF 02 TS darkfire - 03 TS darkfire | TBD 01 TL John. What does this tell me, I have to typeset Episode 2 and 3 of Macross frontier. Tetsuwan birdy decode is being translated by John. Thats all i need. I don't need anybody to tell me anymore than that. If more info is needed Just put a MOTD Tell me to check my memoserv or a file on ftp thats it.

RealTime(tm)

If John the translator just happens to be online. I can have a friendly conversation with him I don't talk about fansubbing, heck I don't talk about anime. We just talk. I get to know who I am working with, personally I feel better about give them certain projects. I can give them updates and get RealTime(tm) comments.
With Redmine who knows when they will check their email or the site. Who know if they will post an update. Its not personal its makes fansubbing a job even worse a production line. I fansub and make friends my fansub groups are my friends. We talk and have fun and by coincidence a episode gets fansubed. I don't care how long it takes to come out.

I'm tired, I will flesh this out later...maybe not.

[pichu]

umm... your attitude has gone from being defensive to offensive during the last page... And you're telling about our attitudes?

Changing the topic? The topic has been changed because:

1. I make Redline under ROME and s/Redline/ROME/g in all of their files, claiming them as my modifications. I will send email to Jean (creator of Redline) and he won't mind about this. (sure he won't)

2. I claimed ROME being GPL2 and OS... And yet, it's unlicensed and closed-source.

3. I don't fansub, and yet I want you guys to fansub like I would have done so.

4. The system used by old/experienced fansubbers are no good. They should be using my system.

5. I advertised the groups to use my system, and those groups (names that no one here heard of) are already starting using it.

6. Hidden psychology: I collect information about the groups, and I want anime/manga before getting released.

--

This does make your system very fishy, shaky, shabby. And, sorry for using in first-person form, but it makes me sounded very wicked

[TGEN]

Originally Posted by asunder

In the past, I used to have a local CVS account (where I could do what you've said above) and a central CVS server account at the same time. have things really changed that much?

Then I'm sure you're familiar with repository surgery, tiresome branch merging (you don't just spawn a feature branch which you merge in with HEAD, because it takes a shitload of effort), and the lack of distributed features. You can't commit to your local repository and then say 'hey, send that commit to this and that remote repository as well', you have to extract patches, apply them to a checkout of the remote repositories, then commit those again. Cumbersome.

The DVCSs that've sprung up in the past couple of years fix these issues. You ought to take them for a spin .

[asunder]

Originally Posted by TGEN

Then I'm sure you're familiar with repository surgery, tiresome branch merging (you don't just spawn a feature branch which you merge in with HEAD, because it takes a shitload of effort), and the lack of distributed features. You can't commit to your local repository and then say 'hey, send that commit to this and that remote repository as well', you have to extract patches, apply them to a checkout of the remote repositories, then commit those again. Cumbersome.

The DVCSs that've sprung up in the past couple of years fix these issues. You ought to take them for a spin .

The repository surgery heh, i suppose so. I'll look into DVCSs if I ever get back to coding ( >_> ) and am in need of a versioning system again.

[silverado]

Originally Posted by pichus

umm... your attitude has gone from being defensive to offensive during the last page... And you're telling about our attitudes?

Changing the topic? The topic has been changed because:

1. I make Redline under ROME and s/Redline/ROME/g in all of their files, claiming them as my modifications. I will send email to Jean (creator of Redline) and he won't mind about this. (sure he won't)

2. I claimed ROME being GPL2 and OS... And yet, it's unlicensed and closed-source.

3. I don't fansub, and yet I want you guys to fansub like I would have done so.

4. The system used by old/experienced fansubbers are no good. They should be using my system.

5. I advertised the groups to use my system, and those groups (names that no one here heard of) are already starting using it.

6. Hidden psychology: I collect information about the groups, and I want anime/manga before getting released.

--

This does make your system very fishy, shaky, shabby. And, sorry for using in first-person form, but it makes me sounded very wicked

If you think you can help to develope the system you should actually start making constructive suggestions. How about switching from "I'm a kid" to "I'm a fansubber" mode and try to understand my point to provide you with an alternative software. But in case you aren't a developer and don't want to use Rome either, why do you insist in "helping me"? I could do it without your feedback.

Btw. Your description fits your taste!

[pichu]

Originally Posted by silverado

If you think you can help to develope the system you should actually start making constructive suggestions. How about switching from "I'm a kid" to "I'm a fansubber" mode and try to understand my point to provide you an alternative way of working. But in case you aren't a developer and don't want to use Rome either, why do you insist in "helping me"? I could do it without your feedback.

I'm a kid? I'm one of the oldest subbers (in terms of age) around... I started fansubbing when I was bored with my boring PhD research (just finished this year). Judging from your tasks, I have to conclude you never wrote any codes. Getting the email to work? Testing stability? lol... Those are the first things before hosting anything...

[silverado]

Originally Posted by [darkfire]

RealTime Communication:

I admit that all my communication is not done in RealTime(TM), but IRC gives me the option to do this.

Why doesn't RedMine give you RealTime(TM) communication, because it requires the user to be

1. Registered with it.
2. Actively checking the site or email
3. Refreshing the page, There is no javascript updates.

Let me compare RedMine with my core usage of irc in fansubbing sense.

Issues and Tracking

Frankly I don't want to track stuff I don't care how long people take to do things or setting due dates. RedMine offers this, I don't need this. A tiny update to the topic suffices.
Redmine allows you to put extra text aka descriptions. Fansubbing task are kind of self explanitory. MF 02 TS darkfire - 03 TS darkfire | TBD 01 TL John. What does this tell me, I have to typeset Episode 2 and 3 of Macross frontier. Tetsuwan birdy decode is being translated by John. Thats all i need. I don't need anybody to tell me anymore than that. If more info is needed Just put a MOTD Tell me to check my memoserv or a file on ftp thats it.

RealTime(tm)

If John the translator just happens to be online. I can have a friendly conversation with him I don't talk about fansubbing, heck I don't talk about anime. We just talk. I get to know who I am working with, personally I feel better about give them certain projects. I can give them updates and get RealTime(tm) comments.
With Redmine who knows when they will check their email or the site. Who know if they will post an update. Its not personal its makes fansubbing a job even worse a production line. I fansub and make friends my fansub groups are my friends. We talk and have fun and by coincidence a episode gets fansubed. I don't care how long it takes to come out.

I'm tired, I will flesh this out later...maybe not.

again you are trying to compare an instant messanger with a task management system. do you criticize an apple because although it's round you can't use it to play football? How about eating the apple AND playing football. How about using Rome AND Irc?

[silverado]

Don't be offended if someone confuses your age if you write stuff like this: "This does make your system very fishy, shaky, shabby. And, sorry for using in first-person form, but it makes me sounded very wicked"

[pichu]

Well, the only way to speak to a child is to talk like a child... You've never learned that lesson before? So I'm rephrasing in something you can understand better

[getfresh]

But an apple is for eating and a football for playing football. IRC is used for project/team management and your app as you yourself have been promoting is for the same thing. So they are both proposed for playing "football," but your football is an apple and we can't play with an apple now can we!

Sorry but I couldn't resist.

[xris]

Can I ask that the IRC v ROME issues be dropped. All I can see is that this is a red herring since at it's heart ROME is a project management tool so it doesn't need to try and complete with IRC. That doesn't mean that IRC doesn't help the creation of fansubs or that groups shouldn't be using IRC but is seems the arguments aren't even focussed on the same issues.

Again, to me (neither a fansubber or scanlator) I can't see how a project management tool can help the majority of fansub groups.

With scans, several people can be working on translation (or scanning or editing), each can work on a separate page of the manga. Member A can be editing page 1, 5 and 10 while Member B can be editing pages 2 to 4. Member C now needs to know what page he can work on but he may need to know what pages have been translated first. The Translator member(s) needs to know what pages have been scanned. And so on. Project Management might help in this case so everyone can see what is left that needs doing.

With fansubs, one person does the one job until it is finished so there is no overlap therefore no need for project management. I assume that in most cases the (single) Translator translates and the (single) Encoder encodes, the progress is linier. You get the raw, you translate, you time, you encode (sorry this simplification is just for example). As far as I'm aware a group of people do not simultaneous translate the same episode, nor do a group of people encode the same episode.

IRC is a red herring, the main objection is that project management is not required by most fansub groups because it just adds a further complication (and most project management tools I've seen require some learning curve before they can be used).

Anyway, reminder to keep the discussion civil

[silverado]

what features can you think of could help you with fansubbing in general (nothing specialized like video encoding)?

rome has no learning curve, everything you need to know is how to create an issue and that can be done in two clicks.

[jfs]

Ok, some suggestions:

If you want people to use this project management, develop an IRC "extension" to it, ie. an IRC bot that can be used to send status updates to the website and announce updates from it on a channel. Maybe even manage channel topics.
Nobody who's using IRC now is going to ditch it (this should be pretty obvious from the past 7 pages in this thread) and if you can't beat them, join them.

Second, I think many groups don't want to use a centrally hosted copy of the software on a server they don't control, simply because of "spying" issues. (No, I'm not saying anyone is actually doing that, but it is a concern anyway. Some people are paranoid.) Provide an option to get and install a copy of the software on an own server.
Seeing that Redmine is already open source, how about just directing people to that? Maybe provide a patch set. (Btw. on the GPL2/must provide source issue: No, when using a serverside web application such as ROME/Redmine, you are not retrieving the application code in any form, but that is the prerequisite for the GPL2 source distribution requirements kicking in, so they don't. GPL3 changes this.)

My third suggestion might not apply, I haven't looked at the software myself, but it ought to integrate direct support for commonly used text formats, especially SSA/ASS. A "blind" diff/merge between SSA/ASS files can work, but sometimes a "smart" might be better, such as merging two versions of a style line that have had different fields changed from the base version.



But for my personal opinion (please do not respond on this) I think this does look/sound like an application produced by someone who isn't involved in the application's usage domain. Most if not all popular fansubbing tools are written by people who also use them themselves for their intended purposes. By "eating your own dogfood" the application necessarily becomes better and more suited for the task. (Example: Visual Studio is arguably Microsoft's best software product. Why? Because it's made for developers, and Microsoft is made of developers, developers, devlopers and still more developers.)

[[darkfire]]

Originally Posted by jfs

Microsoft is made of developers, developers, devlopers...

That made me lol.

[日本ひきこもり協会]

Originally Posted by xris

With scans, several people can be working on translation (or scanning or editing), each can work on a separate page of the manga. Member A can be editing page 1, 5 and 10 while Member B can be editing pages 2 to 4. Member C now needs to know what page he can work on but he may need to know what pages have been translated first. The Translator member(s) needs to know what pages have been scanned. And so on. Project Management might help in this case so everyone can see what is left that needs doing.

Nope, scanlators pretty much work like fansubbers (not that there is a big difference). I know enough groups who use IRC and FTP. You don't have 2 editors who edit pages. You however have a cleaner and editor (depends how experienced the editor is). But then again you don't have 2 editors and 2 cleaners. That's just stupid. And you don't edit before the translation is done either. Also you don't scan page by page and upload them separately. You scan a whole volume or chapter and upload that.

It's true that many scanlators still communicate through email but yeah, there are also enough people who favor IRC and FTP (and there are the lj nibz that you should avoid).

[TGEN]

Originally Posted by silverado

How about switching from "I'm a kid" to "I'm a fansubber" mode and try to understand my point to provide you with an alternative software.

You're writing (well, you're not) support software for work fansubbers do, but apparently you have no real clue as to how fansubbing works. I'd suggest for you to immerse yourself into the fansubbing 'scene', by participating in projects (e.g. as a timer) so you can observe firsthand what issues arise that you could write software for to alleviate those issues, or rather, see what issues don't arise that your software tries to fix.

[pichu]

Originally Posted by jfs

Seeing that Redmine is already open source, how about just directing people to that? Maybe provide a patch set. (Btw. on the GPL2/must provide source issue: No, when using a serverside web application such as ROME/Redmine, you are not retrieving the application code in any form, but that is the prerequisite for the GPL2 source distribution requirements kicking in, so they don't. GPL3 changes this.)

Well I was merely asking for a proof to back up his claim - let it be a legitimate statement or possible source codes downloads. Without this, it makes this very fishy... And why did he stay away from using the original source, which would have been more reliable. He never mentioned its base codes until someone mentioned it... It looks almost as if he's taking all the credits here.

[nachtrabe]

Originally Posted by silverado

how would you describe the process of fansubbing differently than a business problem?

Oh, there are several business problems around fansubbing. See Agilis's article. Technical tools that would help these problems are things like translation assistant tools and SVN. Trac would even have something going for it just for its SCM piece, but not much of one if you remove that integration.

The essential problem is the same for both: time management. No matter what kind of task there is no task which can't be broken down to and be scheduled. Simply put there are no essetial differences in both process that would require a further "adaptation".

This indicates to me that you haven't bothered reading what I wrote. Please give me at least that courtesy if you wish to have a serious discussion on this topic.

Even if the quintessential problem were the same, what is required in "time management" is different for each group.

There is a company that is basically producing SFA (sales force automation) software for hospitals. What it requires for hospitals is totally unlike what is required for a telecommunication company--they are completely alien to each other. This is part of why they aren't basing it off of existing CRM software designs.

Even with existing CRM designs, they all require custom configuration for each individual business, even though the fundamental problem that they address is the same.

I've been working with groups with over 20 members. Timing them in irc is nearly impossible.

The sound you just heard was the point flying above your head.

exactly what the wiki page is for.

Wikis have difficult dynamics of continuous modification of the same file by multiple people at the same time, especially when combined with special file formats used on some projects. Or, for that matter, the need to combine it with the odd non-text file. Wikis also remove some of the more interesting editing tools from the table.

Again, you need to understand the business problem before tackling the technical challenge.

"- Once something is "published" it is generally forgotten about. There might be a revision or two, but in general there is no prolonged maintenance phase.", completed issues disappear automatically from the task list. So there is no "artifact" effect of old status.

Reread what I said please.

Software projects can live a long time. I have "effectively dead" projects out there that someone could take, put under SCM, modify, and take bug requests on. The lifetime of a well managed project can last for a very long time, and there will be incremental updates.

This isn't true in most translation projects, where they develop to a release date and, after releasing, generally move on to the next project. There may be a little cleanup, but it is not given the continual maintenance of a software project.

You have not shown more than a superficial understanding of your "customer." Instead you have tried telling them what they need. Ask instead, or read Agilis's blog.

"- The ability to stay in touch and coordinate communication in real time. [...]We just had a situation where someone didn't reply to email for two weeks because they were swamped, but had information everyone else needed.", this is a very important issue. How much time have you spent on searching irc logs, because you weren't available at the moment? Wouldn't it be more efficient to have the most important information on some kind of blackboard? Again-> Rome Wiki & Issue Tracking System

We have tools that far exceed what redmine can do in my company, including equivalent tools to fill similar needs. We have MS Project and a fulltime project manager, exchange servers, Sharepoint servers with wikis and blogs, we have bug trackers and task managers. We have business skype accounts with both skype in and skype out and have all of our requirements documents from the customer under SCM.

None of them help if they aren't being used.

This is a human problem and it is one that is solved by good communication practices. This is why just about every worthwhile guide on management talks about the importance of GOOD COMMUNICATION. Tools are secondary and nothing beats the ability to throw a rock and hit the person you need. Nothing.

The closest software programs that are analogous to that are IRC and chat clients. Since most of the people I've met in this context use IRC socially, it is a natural extension. If you want to add to that you haven't made a business case for it over the other tools that are out there. If you want to replace it you haven't even addressed why it is used.

"- A way to exchange data and keep track of changes over time (groups that use FTP need to be using SCM of some sort--even writers for NaNoWriMo etc are starting to use it).", there is no really need for ftp and nano if you got a wiki to store your text.

Mate, this is quite possibly the most ignorant thing you could have said. Have you ever worked on a software project with more than 2 people on it?

First, SCM != FTP except for people with really odd naming conventions. SCM = SVN or CVS. SVN has a host of advantages over a wiki for translation purposes, especially as you scale.

Second, NaNoWriMo is not software. It stands for "national novel writing month" and is a project where a bunch of people try to write 50k words in the month of November. It is a pretty bold statement to say "really no need to [...] nano" when you haven't the faintest clue what "nano" is.

Again, you should try to understand your client before you try and sell them something. If you don't know what NaNoWriMo is you had better look it up before trying to convince me that a wiki is superior to it or you might be trying to compare Apples and Oranges. Or collaborative software and amateur novelists, as the case may be.

"- Simple, easy-to-use tools that fit the above two needs.", yep, I agree. Instead of using two or more tools, one tool that fulfills those needs is better. So why are you using irc, ftp, msn, forum, svn?

Because Redmine and Trac don't address the underlying needs of all of those different tools. To be fair, they aren't meant to, they are meant to be used in conjunction with SCM, IRC, IM, mailing lists, etc for software projects.

One software project I am on with some friends has Trac tied to SVN, a mailing list, and everyone uses chat clients as well. We could use Redmine instead of Trac, but it wouldn't substitute for the business needs of all of the other pieces.

"Where in this picture do you see the concept of a bug?", this is easy to change. Just need to go to the translation file and replace "issue" with "task". Solved.

That isn't addressing my question. Where in the concept of translation do you see the concept of a bug, not the word "bug."

"While assigning tickets may have some merit as a tracking tool, it doesn't offer a really compelling case over IRC (at least that you have given so far).", wait have you been reading the whole topic? How often do you expect me to number the advantages?

I expect those advantages to address the reasons why IRC is used, and it is clear to me you don't even understand why IRC is used.

"Trying to impose software for structuring higher level order on groups that are not sufficiently mature--in software terms--either leads to resistance of the product or more time lost maintaining the product than not having the product would cost.", if your company have bought a software and it's really buggy, wouldn't you want to improve it? Your argument is that those groups are too small for software management. I'd say it's the opposite. If you have a small group who releases less frequently you don't expect your members to be as active as big groups. Therefor the distribution of accurate information becomes vital. From my experience it's simplier and better to have both files, text and status at the same location. From what you just said, the use of seperate tools like irc, ftp creates more work to maintain it and therefor would be a negative argument for the use of IRC as project management software. I bet it wasn't invented for that.

No, I have said that the groups are too small for project management while advocating SCM, but that isn't what I said here at all.

I was talking about maturity, not size. I've seen very small companies with a high level of maturity, and very large companies with a very low level of maturity.

Maturity is something else you will see in every intro to software engineering textbook.

"Schedule management? Difficult even in large open source projects and nothing that can't be done with Google Calendar", err so you are actually suggesting to use a third tool, if on the other hand you could do all this with one tool? I see, your company must run on a goldmine.

Again, it is about using the right tool for the job.

For open source, I care more about my team being on vacation and about availability in a given period of time than anything. I also want features that Redmine and Trac have.

For paid projects I have slightly different needs, because the needs for managing people are different. I may still want some of the same features, but I have different concerns as well.

For fansubbing I have a different set of requirements entirely.

But the whole goal was to give them an alternative, more flexible tool to use. But they want no alternatives, I find that ludicrous. It's like saying "I want no car, because my horse is cheaper and warmer.".

I think your analogy on one side is excellent, but falls flat on the other.

"I want no car, because I live within walking distance of everything that I need, have public transportation, and don't want to pay for it or go through the hassle."

Sure, I may need a bike to get to one place, my feet to get to another, or some combination of light rail and busses to get to a third. I may have to hitch with friends occasionally or somesuch, but there are advantages to not owning a car as well. It may have inconveniences such as rain, and I may need to leave early when I want to get to a friend's house.

But I don't have to pay for gas, the car, maintenance, or insurance. I don't have to worry about my car breaking down at a critical moment, nor do I have to dig it out from under the snow. Car accidents aren't something I would worry about, and if I live close enough to work, I may even get there before a car that drives the same distance on a snowy day. I would get my exercise just getting around and would not have to work out as much.

There are advantages to owning a car, but for some the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

Same here. There are advantages to project management software, but for many the advantages are outweighed by the disadvantages. Now, the analogy breaks down at this point as well, because the "car" you are advocating works best for SOFTWARE projects and fan translation projects are a different beast with different needs.

You might as well be trying to sell a car to someone who uses a boat to get to work because there are no roads.