One Piece - Chapter 684 [manga]

[grey_1960]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Yeah, but the Sabaody arc made the level of future enemies crystal clear when the entire Straw-Hat crew struggled to their utmost limits just to take out ONE FODDER PACIFISTA.. I've argued this point with you hundreds of times already, but how could a crew who were just barely able to take out one Kumabot two years ago suddenly be at the level to take on an emperor's entire pirate army by themselves? Yeah, Hody's fish-army from the last arc went down pretty easily but they weren't made up of elite pirates or marines, were they? The Marineford arc alone should have made it clear as to what kind of huge forces are needed to take on the full might of an emperor.....



...And again, this is where the pirate alliances come in. Teaming up with Law should be just the beginning for Luffy. He'll need to make as many powerful allies as he can before he takes on Big Mama and any other pirate emperors (which is why I still feel that his alliance will eventually be integrated with Kid's). Hell, even now I still feel that he'll need Law's help to take down Doflamingo's crew now that he's become their target. You just can't take the New World so lightly.....

Then and now
You know those pacifists they used two years ago were torn apart two years later. Luffy took one on by himself without even trying and Zoro and Sanji argued over the other one. Two Sentomaru could not even stop them like he did last time. It is amazing what haki and training from the world class fighters can do. To compare Luffy's past with the present only makes my argument stronger. After seeing Law fight in this arch who could blame him for making an alliance with Luffy. Brains he has but muscles he does not have. Finally taking the New World lightly. If Luffy did that he would have ignored Rayleigh's advice to train for two years.

[paradox13]

how could a crew who were just barely able to take out one Kumabot two years ago suddenly be at the level to take on an emperor's entire pirate army by themselves

Firstly, they will not be facing an Emperor's crew by themselves.

Secondly, 2 years is a long time. It is probable that they have improved significantly since then (significant enough to challenge the top tiers of OP world).

[Dengar]

Luffy and Law teaming up to take out an Emperor? I thought they were gonna take out a Warlord (IE Doflamingo).

[marvelB]

^You got that backwards. The point of the alliance was to topple an emperor (though we still don't know WHICH one it is yet). But part of my argument was that Luffy would ally himself with other pirates to take down ALL of the New World's major forces (not just emperors but warlords, admirals, etc.).


But moving on now, I see I'm being double-teamed:

Originally Posted by paradox13

Firstly, they will not be facing an Emperor's crew by themselves.

I know that. It's grey_1960 who's arguing that they're capable of taking on the NW's top forces by themselves. Honestly, I think fighting an emperor's crew on their own is flat-out suicidal, no matter how much they improved on their own. Besides, if toppling the rulers of the NW were so simple, how come none of the other supernovas introduced before the timeskip are emperors themselves? In fact, they're also negotiating alliances amongst themselves. So why does Luffy's crew have to be the exception? THAT'S my argument.


As for your second argument, grey brought up the same thing in his last post so I'll address it there.

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Then and now
You know those pacifists they used two years ago were torn apart two years later. Luffy took one on by himself without even trying and Zoro and Sanji argued over the other one. Two Sentomaru could not even stop them like he did last time. It is amazing what haki and training from the world class fighters can do. To compare Luffy's past with the present only makes my argument stronger.

You're still somewhat missing the point of my argument. Yeah, I know quite well that the monster trio wrecked those Kumabots soon after the skip (and it's pointless to bring up Sentoumaru since he didn't actually fight them. Luffy was too busy catching up with his crew to engage him anyhow). My point was that those bots were still fodder machines, even before the skip (at least when compared to the original Kuma). While it certainly does say a lot about the crew's growth that they can take them out so easily now, it still doesn't guarantee that they're now capable of going toe-to-toe with world-class opponents. Besides, those Kumabots were prototypes, anyway (Sentoumaru even pointed that out). Who knows how much stronger the newer models will be.....


[QUOTE=grey_1960;4393329]After seeing Law fight in this arch who could blame him for making an alliance with Luffy. Brains he has but muscles he does not have.


So I guess you already forget Law's earlier fight with Smoker then (where he swiped the guy's heart with relatively little trouble)? By no stretch of the imagination is Law weak (though I'd agree that the monster trio probably has him beat in physical strength). I do believe that he's inferior to Vergo, though. I mean, putting aside that whole heart-squeezing business, the guy still kicked Law's ass fairly quickly (and even withstood that counter-shock). But in the end, I wouldn't let that discredit our doctor friend. If anything, he supports my argument that no matter how strong the supernovas got during those two years, they still wouldn't be able to touch those world-class opponents on their own....

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Finally taking the New World lightly. If Luffy did that he would have ignored Rayleigh's advice to train for two years.

True. However, my point was that those two years of training doesn't guarantee that Luffy's currently at the same level as a yonkou or admiral. Basically, read my response to paradox13's post above.

Originally Posted by james0246

^

LOL, we've had this discussion before .

I know, that's even why I brought it up again. I still think it would be badass to see haki being used in those ways, though.

[golgo13]

Gotta hand it to Coribou for following jinbe all the way and taking on the G5 marines head on. Can't believe the crew survived at all. The mini-story is pretty captivating its so close to where the strawhats just where. Have a feeling that the Caribou pirates will get re-introduced into the main story a little faster. Will it be the first time a mini-story intersects directly like this? There could be a chapter where the mini-story is actually a continued within that chapter..

[Kona]

They should animate some of the cover stories if it's important enough.

[grey_1960]

Originally Posted by marvelB

You're still somewhat missing the point of my argument. Yeah, I know quite well that the monster trio wrecked those Kumabots soon after the skip (and it's pointless to bring up Sentoumaru since he didn't actually fight them. Luffy was too busy catching up with his crew to engage him anyhow). My point was that those bots were still fodder machines, even before the skip (at least when compared to the original Kuma). While it certainly does say a lot about the crew's growth that they can take them out so easily now, it still doesn't guarantee that they're now capable of going toe-to-toe with world-class opponents. Besides, those Kumabots were prototypes, anyway (Sentoumaru even pointed that out). Who knows how much stronger the newer models will be.....

Generations come and Generations go
With the power ups Luffy and his crew got, what makes you think the 2.0 Kuma will not be fodder too? The top have no options but to defend the mountain. They have reached the peak of there powers. If they have any room for improvements it will be small. Luffy has no were else to go but up because he is on the bottom. Look at Shanks, he was one of Rogers men. Rogers fought White Beard for the title of Pirate King. What was the power gap between Shanks and White Beard then? Important note, White Beard in his prime was strong then the White Beard at Marine ford. Shanks is a generation younger then White Beard. Later Shanks would claim the title has Yonkou and stand with White Beard has one of the four. Why is it so hard to see Luffy fighting with the top?

Originally Posted by marvelB

So I guess you already forget Law's earlier fight with Smoker then (where he swiped the guy's heart with relatively little trouble)? By no stretch of the imagination is Law weak (though I'd agree that the monster trio probably has him beat in physical strength). I do believe that he's inferior to Vergo, though. I mean, putting aside that whole heart-squeezing business, the guy still kicked Law's ass fairly quickly (and even withstood that counter-shock). But in the end, I wouldn't let that discredit our doctor friend. If anything, he supports my argument that no matter how strong the supernovas got during those two years, they still wouldn't be able to touch those world-class opponents on their own....

Luffy Vs. CC and Smoker Vs. Law
You know there is a huge parallel between the two fight. CC and Law both were unknown variables a the time. Both Luffy and Smoker lost because of little trick. Both Law and CC were weaker then there opponent in the fighting skills and strength. If you look at the second round with Luffy Vs. CC, CC could not even touch Luffy and gas trick with the air did not even work. Monet had to save him. Do you think Smoker would lose in his second round with Law? I doubt it personally because now Smoker knows Law and he is familiar with his power from first hand experience. Unless law has another trick up his sleeve any advantage he had in the first fight has evaporated. Has for the Alliances the question is would Luffy have ever come to Law for an Alliance? Remember Law came to Luffy and Alliances don’t always mean they are beneficial to both parties. To me Law looks like he was using the alliance with Luffy to one keep them out of his hair, two they could help him take on any challengers that would get in his way, three he has no crew of his own on the Island so he is at a number disadvantage. I will say it again who needs who?

Originally Posted by marvelB

True. However, my point was that those two years of training doesn't guarantee that Luffy's currently at the same level as a yonkou or admiral. Basically, read my response to paradox13's post above.

Guarantees and Exceptions
Guarantees work both ways. Now that the Straw hats have haki, Kizaru will no longer has the luxury of logia invincibility. With the experience at Sabaody, Marine Ford, and the two years of training it is not like the Straw hats are clueless of the tops capabilities. Also Luffy made war with Big Mamma and if this alliance is going after a different Yonkou that will be total of two. Pretty ambitious(or flat out suicidal) for just getting to the New World. Has for Luffy and the crew being the exception, besides him being the main character Luffy does come from a pretty accomplished family, his family line gives him already a strong affinity to the haki, he has awaken King Haki(how many supernovas have done that already?), he does have a D. in his initials (How many other Supernovas have that?), Luffy and the crew both got training from experts, Luffy can hear the voice of the Sea Kings, and the list goes on. No one character is created equal each has their flaws, strengths, different backgrounds, and etc. The supernovas varied in strength before the two years skip, why would they be equal after? Finally just because everyone else is doing it does not mean the Straw Hats have to do it. This alliance to me does not seem to be benefiting the Straw hat right now. Because to me Luffy's crew seems do be doing more of the heavy lifting and getting less if not nothing in return. Does Luffy know what he stands to gain from this? Even Smoker is carrying more weight then Law and he is not even part of the alliance.

[bigdeal000]

I don't understand where all this debating comes from. What's the point of the strawhats being top tier from the very beginning of the manga's second half? Shounen 101 does not allow that, unless Oda breaks the rules (he has no reason to do that though) It makes no sense meh, ignore me, keep debating

[paradox13]

What's the point of the strawhats being top tier from the very beginning of the manga's second half? Shounen 101 does not allow that, unless Oda breaks the rules

Top tier doesn't mean he will not struggle, it just means it is within Luffy's reach to fight 1v1 against the likes of Big Mom, Doflamingo and Blackbeard.

[Dengar]

There's also this thing that pure strength isn't all. More often than not, allies and enemies alike have been rather terrifying through inventive use of their resources. Especially Paramecia users seem to be able to come out on top if they're just creative enough.

[marvelB]

Grey, I don't have enough time to respond to everything of yours now (my computer's still in the shop so internet access is still limited on my end), but I'll at least respond to this particular nugget of your post:

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Luffy Vs. CC and Smoker Vs. Law
You know there is a huge parallel between the two fight. CC and Law both were unknown variables a the time. Both Luffy and Smoker lost because of little trick. Both Law and CC were weaker then there opponent in the fighting skills and strength. If you look at the second round with Luffy Vs. CC, CC could not even touch Luffy and gas trick with the air did not even work. Monet had to save him. Do you think Smoker would lose in his second round with Law? I doubt it personally because now Smoker knows Law and he is familiar with his power from first hand experience. Unless law has another trick up his sleeve any advantage he had in the first fight has evaporated.

You know, reading this (especially the parts in bold), I can't help but get the impression that you don't think very highly of fighters who rely more on brains than brawn. I mean, don't you think that cleverness is what got guys like Law, Moria and Crocodile the warlord position in the first place? Being smart is equally as important as having monstrous strength (it's how people like Usopp and Nami survived so far, after all ). So basically, my response to you is that it is NOT guaranteed that Luffy or Law would win a second time against their respective opponents, even if they're more familiar with their tricks.....

[grey_1960]

^“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Brains to me is very important. Look at Sengoku he orchestrated the Marineford War and he played dirty. He almost broke the pirate alliance by just attacking the New World Pirates and left the White Beard Pirates unscathed. Akainu at the same time fooled Squard into stabbing his captain over the same illusion. White Beard broke the illusion by giving the pirates a way out and letting them decide for themselves what to believe. Sengoku also suppressed the full might of White Beard's quake fruit by using Ace has a shield. Towards the end of the Marine Ford War Akainu could have killed Ace with brute force but he went after Luffy knowing Ace would take the blow. Another example is Vergo, he used the heart on Law the first time they met in this arch without hesitation. The second time he showed Law that he was capable of taking him on easily even if he did not have the heart. People like Law and CC live by manipulations and tricks, that is all they have. For People like Akainu, Sengoku, and Vergo manipulations and tricks are an option. But If they have too fight for their appointed goals they can carry themselves. Looking at this arch none of them are guaranteed wins but by looking at facts and patterns the odds are increasingly growing against Law and CC with every chapter that passes.

Shichibukai
Looking at Croc, Moria, and Law, I think Croc from what I have seen is the only one of the three who deserves the title. Hopefully Moria comes back stronger, before he was a bitter pirate haunted by his past. So was Croc but his performance at Marine Ford was impressive and it seems that Luffy has renewed his passion. I hope he is doing well after the two years timeskip, I like Croc. Has for Law in the beginning I was impressed that he got the shichibukai title but has time passes in this arch he doesn't really seem to be representing the title really well.

[ZGoten]

^Well, Law is currently severely handicapped, as we all know. Plus, the enemy he was facing twice now, namely Vergo, is not really a push over either. We know that he's a vice admiral, which is in itself the third highest rank among the marines. And judging by what we've seen so far, I think it is pretty save to assume that he is among the strongest of the vice admrials.

On the other hand, I have the feeling that many people overestimate the power of the seven warlords. While the title of Shichibukai has always had this sense of danger and power attached to it prior to the timeskip, you have to put things into perspective. Shichibukais like Croc were a big danger for the Strawhats when they were new on the Grand Line, but aside from Mihawk and maybe Doflamingo, the warlords haven't really shown any kind of strength that would seriously endanger the Strawhats at this point - not to the extent they did previously, at least. I'm pretty sure both Sanji and Zoro could give any Shichibukai a good fight themselves by now, again, except for the two that are arguably the strongest. This is just natural progression, though. The focus lies on the emperors now, which are the biggest threats among the pirate forces, as well as on the admirals after that, probably. Shichibukai are largely a thing of the past. They were huge in part 1 of the series, but now after the timeskip, the strongest straw hat members are already starting out on a power level equal or similar to the warlords. With all that being said, Law not representing the title of Shichibukai well is sort of the wrong thing to say. Instead, it is to be expected that Shichibukai will have to face serious opponents in the new world. And that's exactly why Law is representing his status rather well in this arc.

[golgo13]

^

Shichibukai were very strong before and still are, at least I would hope that they remain that way. They are considered one of the "Three Great Powers". Pre timeskip:

Mihawk
Jinbei
Teach
Crocodile
Donfalmingo
Moriah
Kuma
Hancock


Who there is not a threat to Strawhats today? Half are extremely strong: Mihawk, Donflamingo, Kuma (obviously not anymore), Teach.

Remaining have different histories. Jinbe was selected to appease the rift between humans and fish people so his selection is slightly special. Moria is actually pretty powerful, it took a massive risk and power-up from Luffy to defeat Moria. With crocodile it took 3 tries and ultimately a victory; nothing to be scoffed at. Hancock is a little weaker, but a prolonged fight at a high level involving her has not been seen. Many of the warlords without as much individual strength to their peers are able to surround themselves with powerful allies.

I do agree that the focus is the Yonko in the new world. At this point you tend to make alliances or mutual agreements with Shichibukai and focus on emperors since you are in emperor land. It will be interesting to learn who the new Shichibukai are; there are still 3 yet to be named.

All of this talk really highlights the power that admirals have. I'm really interested to know whom replaced Aokiji and Akainu.

[ZGoten]

I didn't mean to say that the Shichibukai are no threat at all anymore, but that they are considerably less of a threat.

[golgo13]

^

Agree with you, in part. Less of a threat? Yes. Considerably? Thats up for debate.

It will be interesting to see if the new Shichibukai are as imposing as their predecessors were.

[paradox13]

I don't see Hancock being weaker than Moria, Crocodile and Jimbei.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by golgo13

^

It will be interesting to see if the new Shichibukai are as imposing as their predecessors were.

I can honsetly say that besides Kuma ahd Crocodile (and maybe Mihawk), none of the Shichibukai were "imposing". Vastly powerful and deadly, but never really imposing. (Note, imposing directly indicates their appearance, and most of the Shichibukai are fairly comical are at least goofy in appearance.)

[grey_1960]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

^Well, Law is currently severely handicapped, as we all know. Plus, the enemy he was facing twice now, namely Vergo, is not really a push over either. We know that he's a vice admiral, which is in itself the third highest rank among the marines. And judging by what we've seen so far, I think it is pretty save to assume that he is among the strongest of the vice admrials.

On the other hand, I have the feeling that many people overestimate the power of the seven warlords. While the title of Shichibukai has always had this sense of danger and power attached to it prior to the timeskip, you have to put things into perspective. Shichibukais like Croc were a big danger for the Strawhats when they were new on the Grand Line, but aside from Mihawk and maybe Doflamingo, the warlords haven't really shown any kind of strength that would seriously endanger the Strawhats at this point - not to the extent they did previously, at least. I'm pretty sure both Sanji and Zoro could give any Shichibukai a good fight themselves by now, again, except for the two that are arguably the strongest. This is just natural progression, though. The focus lies on the emperors now, which are the biggest threats among the pirate forces, as well as on the admirals after that, probably. Shichibukai are largely a thing of the past. They were huge in part 1 of the series, but now after the timeskip, the strongest straw hat members are already starting out on a power level equal or similar to the warlords. With all that being said, Law not representing the title of Shichibukai well is sort of the wrong thing to say. Instead, it is to be expected that Shichibukai will have to face serious opponents in the new world. And that's exactly why Law is representing his status rather well in this arc.

Representation
Serious opponent or not that is not how the WG will see it. Law's failing to represent it won't be any different from Croc and Moria's situation. Shichibukai are to be feared and recognized not beaten to the ground. WG went to great lengths to cover Crocs incident has well has Moria's. Someone even higher then Sengoku ordered a hit on Moria for bad performance. I think he is representing the title poorly. This will be the third Shichibukai from the WG view that has been beaten by Straw Hats if it ends bad for him in this arch. Also since he was in the same Supernova class has Luffy it may make things look worse for him in the WG eyes. What good is the title if no one respects it? If anything Law being beaten only encourages others to step up and challenge the title.

[golgo13]

Originally Posted by paradox13

I don't see Hancock being weaker than Moria, Crocodile and Jimbei.

It's tough to say with Hancock since there hasn't been any long 1 vs. 1 battles involving high power ranked characters. In any case, seems like a good fit for Shichibukai.

Originally Posted by james0246

I can honsetly say that besides Kuma ahd Crocodile (and maybe Mihawk), none of the Shichibukai were "imposing". Vastly powerful and deadly, but never really imposing. (Note, imposing directly indicates their appearance, and most of the Shichibukai are fairly comical are at least goofy in appearance.)

Yes agreed.