Where are the yuri anime...

[jedinat]

2013:
?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!

2012:
???!

2011:
??

2010:
?

2009:
Aoi Hana
Sasameki Koto
Maria-sama ga Miteru 4th

2008:
Candy Boy

2007:
Blue Drop (ruined by the ending, but oh well)

2006:
Kashimashi: Girl meets Girl
Strawberry Panic
Simoun
Maria-sama ga Miteru 3rd Season

[relentlessflame]

I'm not an expert on this sub-genre (there are a few that I've liked, but it's a bit hit-or-miss for me), but I tend to think that "yuri" anime have transitioned a bit into the sort of "all-girls slice-of-life shows" that we do see pretty much every season. For example, last season was Kin-iro Mosaic, and this season might be Non Non Biyori. They're a bit different than the examples listed (i.e. the relationships are mostly hinted/suggested with a wink and a nod), but it seems to be the way the niche has evolved for the most part. (I see male yuri fans on Twitter talk frequently about Yozakura Quartet this season as well.) I suppose it may be worth noting that Sakura Trick next season takes it to a bit of a higher level (and perhaps is closer to a hybrid).

For specific suggestions, it's probably worth going to the Suggestions sub-forum.

[jedinat]

Yeah, I've been posting on that sub-forum for about 8 years, lol.

Those all-girl slice of life anime have been around since before the anime I listed; I think Ichigo Mashimaro started that trend. I suppose you may be right that they might be filling the niche in some way, though it doesn't do anything for me (never been interested in fantasizing about made-up character relationships). It's only now that I'm looking back and seeing what a dearth of yuri we're getting anime-wise, after what seemed like a promising surge a few years go with two nice yuri manga getting adaptions in the same year.

I think even manga offerings have been sparse recently...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by jedinat

2013:
?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!

2012:
???!

2011:
??

2010:
?

2009:
Aoi Hana
Sasameki Koto
Maria-sama ga Miteru 4th

2008:
Candy Boy

2007:
Blue Drop (ruined by the ending, but oh well)

2006:
Kashimashi: Girl meets Girl
Strawberry Panic
Simoun
Maria-sama ga Miteru 3rd Season

Notice that it completely dies off after 2009? Now, what was one of the most highly successful shows of 2009, at least commercially?




That's right, K-On!


K-On! launched "all-girls slice-of-life shows" into the stratosphere. These shows generally weren't as yuri as Strawberry Panic, or even Mari-Mite, but they were close enough to basically co-opt the yuri fanbase. I watch/follow a lot of these "cute girls doing cute things" shows, and a significant chunk of their fanbase is yuri fans.

So now we get light subtext rather than anything as explicit as a kiss, or two girls acting with romantic longing for each other. This way you get the yuri audience but without losing those turned off by more clear-cut yuri.

So relentlessflame is right here. Classic yuri got folded into "cute girls doing cute things" due to the meteoric rise of K-On.

However, if the yuri in Mari-Mite is enough for you, I would think that shows like Madoka Magica and Saki would similarly be enough for you. So I recommend those shows to you. Hopefully they'll help fill an important niche for you.

And yeah, Sakura Trick coming out in Winter 2014 could mean that classic yuri is coming back. I certainly hope so.

Originally Posted by jedinat

Those all-girl slice of life anime have been around since before the anime I listed; I think Ichigo Mashimaro started that trend.

It's not about what came first, or came before. It's about what was the first entry in a genre that enjoyed massive amounts of commercial success. The "cute girls doing cute things" shows before K-On! didn't enjoy much success. Well, except perhaps Azumanga Daioh. But even that show wasn't as commercially successful as K-On! was.

[GDB]

Isn't there something slated for next season that's being billed as a yuri show?

[jedinat]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Notice that it completely dies off after 2009? Now, what was one of the most highly successful shows of 2009, at least commercially?


K-On!

I guess I don't pay much attention to how commercially successful anime are. K-On ended up being barely notable for me.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

However, if the yuri in Mari-Mite is enough for you, I would think that shows like Madoka Magica and Saki would similarly be enough for you. So I recommend those shows to you. Hopefully they'll help fill an important niche for you.

The difference is that marimite's main focus is the relationships, while those focus on mahjong and a weird fantasy plot. Marimite's relationships are also much more explicit, even if they are weird pseudo romances....

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And yeah, Sakura Trick coming out in Winter 2014 could mean that classic yuri is coming back. I certainly hope so.

Hope so, I don't think what I read of the manga was too impressive though (so far at least).

[Eragon]

I have given up on anime in terms of producing any shows having explicit yuri relationship. SnK has one relationship that I have hope of becoming cannon - they could still chicken out of it using a cliched trope I guess.
From what I hear most of the time (as Triple_R stated) is that, there isn't a large enough market for explicit gay relationship - meaning the majority of anime fandom is ass-backward.
And I have had it with their stupid-as-shit subtexts. Either show the relationship or don't, don't give me this wink-wink nudge-nudge bullshit.

So, in answer to your question, I would say don't hold out much hope for the subtext relationships to go away anytime soon. Hence, there won't be any yuri shows coming out anytime soon either.

[darkchibi07]

Originally Posted by jedinat

Hope so, I don't think what I read of the manga was too impressive though (so far at least).

How far are you in the Sakura Trick manga? If you ask me, if the peeps at Studio DEEN handles it correctly, the series could very well fill in the gaping holes that's been missing in a lot of past yuri anime, and that's intimacy and passion.

[Auxilism]

Have you watched Senki Zesshou Symphogear (seasons one (2012) and two (2013))? Though it has a 'weird fantasy plot', I probably ship Hibiki and Miku the most now out of all yuri pairings I support.

Below are my reviews on the series with non-yuri cut out. If you're interested, you can read the whole thing in the tldr tag here.

TL;DR…

My yuri ratings

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Kanon]

Things are actually looking up for next year. There is the previously mentioned Sakura Trick and also Akuma no Riddle (it's not purely romance though).

I don't think yuri anime disappeared because they've been replaced by cute girls doing cute things shows. There have never been many in the first place. Yuri subtext is very common but actual yuri is ridiculously rare. It's a very niche genre. 2006 is actually more of an exception than a rule. Things haven't changed, they remained the same.

You might want to look up Kuttsukiboshi if you haven't (don't rage too much at the ending of the first ep, it gets better).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Things are actually looking up for next year. There is the previously mentioned Sakura Trick and also Akuma no Riddle (it's not purely romance though).

I don't think yuri anime disappeared because they've been replaced by cute girls doing cute things shows. There have never been many in the first place.

9 shows over 4 years is significantly more than 0 over the next 4 (going by jedinat's list). It is significant enough to suspect that larger anime trends are likely at play here. It shows that things haven't stayed the same, and that they have changed. I think the argument that relentlessflame and I made about yuri being folded into "all-girls slice-of-life shows" makes perfect sense. Where do you see the flaws in our reasoning there?

I don't know why some anime fans tend to be so dismissive of valid pattern observations like this. Things really do change sometimes in entertainment industries. Some types of shows really do fall in and out of favor. I don't see the point in ignoring or downplaying this. For fans of certain genres/subgenres, it can be very important. Better to recognize these trends, and adjust your expectations because of it, rather than set yourself up for further disappointment by failing to recognize them. And sometimes people just want to know why something has changed, so they can better come to terms with it.

As a big yuri fan myself, I can relate to jedinat's disappointment over the recent dearth of yuri shows that go beyond mere subtext and/or ecchi-comedy. But I also like having a decent idea of why that dearth currently exists. I'd rather have that than nothing at all.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

9 shows over 4 years is significantly more than 0 over the next 4 (going by jedinat's list).

Well, in fairness, it's a bit about how you define it. For example, are you going to include Kanamemo, or exclude it? Or what about YuriYuri (I mean, the claim is right in the title)? To claim Saki is not a yuri show also seems a bit crazy, and even something like Strike Witches or Vividred Operation don't fall that far behind.

So it's basically just a matter of where you draw the line, and if you're content with excessive teasing or need things to be made clear. I don't necessarily buy Eragon's argument that "the majority of anime fandom is ass-backward", just that they can probably appeal to an even broader fanbase with the teasing shows (since it allows people to ship whatever pairings they want or imagine what might happen off-screen, and often this is more fun to many than seeing it actually play out).

I know a good number of pretty hardcore yuri anime fans who have been totally pleased by the anime scene over the last few years... but again, it depends on what exactly you want. If you're happy with excessive teasing, then there are shows in abundance, even if there may arguably be less shows that clearly and unambiguously "cross the line".

[Eragon]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I don't necessarily buy Eragon's argument that "the majority of anime fandom is ass-backward", just that they can probably appeal to an even broader fanbase with the teasing shows (since it allows people to ship whatever pairings they want or imagine what might happen off-screen, and often this is more fun to many than seeing it actually play out).

I know a good number of pretty hardcore yuri anime fans who have been totally pleased by the anime scene over the last few years... but again, it depends on what exactly you want. If you're happy with excessive teasing, then there are shows in abundance, even if there may arguably be less shows that clearly and unambiguously "cross the line".

Why is teasing just specifically present in the yuri genre so much ? With your argument, they should do the same with the rest of the genres since it brings in more audience.

You don't think that a majority of the fandom not wanting to see explicit relationships between female characters might be indicative of something other than "so, they can ship various characters" ? Really ? When people want to ship something, they will ship it. Simple as that. They don't require anymore reason than that.

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, in fairness, it's a bit about how you define it. For example, are you going to include Kanamemo, or exclude it? Or what about YuriYuri (I mean, the claim is right in the title)? To claim Saki is not a yuri show also seems a bit crazy, and even something like Strike Witches or Vividred Operation don't fall that far behind.

Saki and Vividred, etc. are the yuri equivalent of fujoshi pandering. No one's going to look at Kuroko's Basketball or Tiger and Bunny and claim they're BL series no matter how many doujinshi the fans draw. For something to really be in the yuri (or BL) genre, the story has to focus on the relationships.

YuruYuri comes closer, but if you compare it to Sasameki Koto or Aoi Hana it's like putting a wiffle ball next to a baseball.

So it's basically just a matter of where you draw the line, and if you're content with excessive teasing or need things to be made clear.

If the OP had asked, "Why aren't there more shoujo romance series like Kimi ni Todoke or Sukitte Ii Na Yo?" would you point him to Accel World? I mean, it's just a matter of where you draw the line in what constitutes romance, right?

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

9 shows over 4 years is significantly more than 0 over the next 4 (going by jedinat's list). It is significant enough to suspect that larger anime trends are likely at play here. It shows that things haven't stayed the same, and that they have changed. I think the argument that relentlessflame and I made about yuri being folded into "all-girls slice-of-life shows" makes perfect sense. Where do you see the flaws in our reasoning there?

I don't know why some anime fans tend to be so dismissive of valid pattern observations like this. Things really do change sometimes in entertainment industries. Some types of shows really do fall in and out of favor. I don't see the point in ignoring or downplaying this. For fans of certain genres/subgenres, it can be very important. Better to recognize these trends, and adjust your expectations because of it, rather than set yourself up for further disappointment by failing to recognize them. And sometimes people just want to know why something has changed, so they can better come to terms with it.

As a big yuri fan myself, I can relate to jedinat's disappointment over the recent dearth of yuri shows that go beyond mere subtext and/or ecchi-comedy. But I also like having a decent idea of why that dearth currently exists. I'd rather have that than nothing at all.

I didn't mean to be dismissive, that's just my personal take on what's happening with Yuri anime.

In the first place, it's not as clear cut as you seem to believe. 9 to 0? Not really. If you count Marimite as yuri, then you should also count shows like Madoka, Saki, Yuru Yuri, Kiniro Mosaic or Maria Holic Alive as yuri. And as relentlessflame pointed out, shows like Strike Witches and Vivdred are not far behind. If you count OVAs like Candy Boy, you should also count Kitsukiboshi, SonoHanabira (it's hentai but I want to count it because it's damn sweet) and Mnemosyne. Shows that are not yuri oriented but have major characters in lesbian relationships like Seikon no Qwaser and Peguindrum could also be counted. You get my point, the genre hasn't disappeared off the face of the earth after 2009.

If we strip that list down to what's strictly yuri, we're left with the three OVAs I mentioned as well as Yuru Yuri and Madoka (Homu's love for Madoka is the major driving force of the plot). That's 5 shows. Take out Marimite from OP's list and you're left with 7 shows. Not that big a difference. And how many yuri shows were there before 2006, long before K-on existed? Even less.

Personally, I don't see much change. It was rare before, and it's still rare now.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

If the OP had asked, "Why aren't there more shoujo romance series like Kimi ni Todoke or Sukitte Ii Na Yo?" would you point him to Accel World? I mean, it's just a matter of where you draw the line in what constitutes romance, right?

I don't think that's a very fair comparison. When you call something a "yuri anime", it has a lot of connotations. There are a lot of anime that are considered by the commons to be "yuri anime" even if they mostly focus on shipping and aren't explicit. And that's the question I was putting on the table: just calling something a "yuri anime" doesn't make it clear where the line is. You obviously have a definition of what does and doesn't count (perhaps the same as is shared by the OP), but I don't think that definition is as clear-cut to everyone.

Originally Posted by Eragon

Why is teasing just specifically present in the yuri genre so much ? With your argument, they should do the same with the rest of the genres since it brings in more audience.

You don't think that a majority of the fandom not wanting to see explicit relationships between female characters might be indicative of something other than "so, they can ship various characters" ? Really ? When people want to ship something, they will ship it. Simple as that. They don't require anymore reason than that.

I don't think by any means that this teasing is restricted to this area. Shounen romantic comedies (the To Love-Rus of the world) are all about teasing (and you only maybe get an explicit relationship at the very end -- maybe). And there are plenty of shows on the male-male side of the equation that are also more about the tease than the act. So I don't think yuri is by any means singled out here.

I'm not trying to argue that there aren't clearly more shows that feature explicit heterosexual relationships than homosexual ones. Clearly that is the case, shameful though it may be. But that they've make a whole business of appealing to a broader market with the "tease" (without showing the act) isn't really so unique in my view.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, in fairness, it's a bit about how you define it.

Well sure. I'll usually take yuri subtext over nothing at all, and Kanon is right about yuri subtext being very common. So I certainly don't feel entirely neglected as a yuri fan. Still, what Kanon called "actual yuri" has just about disappeared over the past 4 years, whereas there was at least a decent amount of it for a few years. 9 or so shows over 4 years isn't bad for a very niche genre. 0 shows over 4 years is pretty bad for anything.

Though I agree with you on Saki.

Originally Posted by Kanon

I didn't mean to be dismissive, that's just my personal take on what's happening with Yuri anime.

You really don't see how there's been a spike in "all-girls slice of life shows" since 2009? You really don't see how that could conceivably co-opt the yuri fanbase?

In the first place, it's not as clear cut as you seem to believe.

Hey, I'm only going by jedinat's numbers, which you yourself never questioned originally. Jedinat's numbers might be slightly off, but I don't think they're that far off.

9 to 0? Not really. If you count Marimite as yuri, then you should also count shows like Madoka, Saki, Yuru Yuri, Kiniro Mosaic or Maria Holic Alive as yuri.

I disagree. And here's why...

Spoiler for Minor Mari-Mite spoilers; implied spoilers for other shows in comparison:

Mari-Mite does have one explicit yuri relationship. We see a kiss between two girls on at least two different occasions in Mari-Mite. And one of those two kisses is connected to a very obvious and serious lesbian affair. That's more than I can say for Madoka, Saki, or what I saw of the other shows on your list.

And as relentlessflame pointed out, shows like Strike Witches and Vivdred are not far behind.

But they are not actual yuri. They are just yuri subtext, to the best of my knowledge.

If you count OVAs like Candy Boy, you should also count Kitsukiboshi, SonoHanabira (it's hentai but I want to count it because it's damn sweet)
and Mnemosyne.

Ok, then let's drop Candy Boy, because OVAs almost never get noticed like TV series do. So now it's 8 to 0.

Shows that are not yuri oriented but have major characters in lesbian relationships like Seikon no Qwaser and Peguindrum could also be counted.

That's really stretching it. I can't imagine anybody watching either of these two shows primarily for the yuri.

You get my point,

Yeah, I get that you're grasping at straws because for some reason, you don't want to admit that actual yuri has been in decline the last few years.

If we strip that list down to what's strictly yuri, we're left with the three OVAs I mentioned as well as Yuru Yuri and Madoka (Homu's love for Madoka is the major driving force of the plot).

You know what? As a big yuri fan, I honestly find Yuru Yuri offensive. I think it makes a total mockery of serious lesbian relationships. So there's no way I'll ever agree with counting Yuru Yuri as an "actual yuri" show, regardless of its title.

And ultimately, Madoka Magica is still a yuri subtext show.

So the real number is 8-0, in my view. If we're talking about "actual yuri" and not just "yuri subtext".

Personally, I don't see much change. It was rare before, and it's still rare now.

I do see a significant change. 2 a year vs. 0 a year. That's a significant change.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

0 shows over 4 years is pretty bad for anything.

Well again, to help me understand the definition, is it understood to mean "a show where clear/unambiguous lesbian relationships (one or more) are portrayed at the center of the story"?

I've seen some argue that Kashimashi shouldn't count on that account, but I'm not sure if I can really agree with that argument.

I've also seen some in the past make a distinction for shounen/seinen shows like Strawberry Panic, as opposed to the shoujo/josei shows, due to significant differences in the presentation tone and style. (i.e. One, like the "teasing" shows, is using it more as a sort of fanservice, rather than treating it with maturity and seriousness. At least that's what I've seen some claim.)

There are all sorts of definitions and distinctions I've seen made in the past when people discuss this broader topic, so that's why I'm questioning a bit this "9 before, 0 now!" dichotomy.

(Edit: As I was writing this you added more to the previous reply that echoed some of these points. But I suppose I should add, are you saying that a serious kiss on the lips is the line to be crossed in terms of what's more than a tease? I suppose it's also a question of if the relationship considered official between two of them, and perhaps if it's acknowledged/recognized by others in the story. If we're clearer about the definition, maybe we can prove the "0" claim one way or the other.)

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Eragon

Why is teasing just specifically present in the yuri genre so much ? With your argument, they should do the same with the rest of the genres since it brings in more audience.

You don't think that a majority of the fandom not wanting to see explicit relationships between female characters might be indicative of something other than "so, they can ship various characters" ? Really ? When people want to ship something, they will ship it. Simple as that. They don't require anymore reason than that.

Romance of any sort generally isn't a focus for shows with predominantly female casts these days. Granted, you occassionally see if in something like Hanasaku Iroha, but even in those scenarios the romance is a fairly minor focus.

So I'm not inclined to see the lack of explicit yuri in shows like Saki, Madoka, Kiniro Mosaic and Strike Witches as indicating anything as I have no reason to expect it to be there in the first place. Frankly, in many, perhaps most cases I'm inclined to say you don't see explicit romance in these shows for the same reason you don't see intense drama in them.

[Triple_R]

This is what I would call "Actual Yuri" - The show is about yuri relationships. The relationships are treated seriously. At least one of the central characters are in a clear-cut lesbian relationship.

All of the shows on jedinat's list of 9 would meet this.

I can't think of any recent anime TV series that meets this.

Some do come very close to it, but refuse to cross that final line. And that final line can be important to some yuri fans.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

So I'm not inclined to see the lack of explicit yuri in shows like Saki, Madoka, Kiniro Mosaic and Strike Witches as indicating anything as I have no reason to expect it to be there in the first place. Frankly, in many, perhaps most cases I'm inclined to say you don't see explicit romance in these shows for the same reason you don't see intense drama in them.

Saki and Madoka don't have intense drama in them?