Mother of Learning [Web Novel]

[Breimn]

New ch out, "Critical Blunder"

[sasuke706]

So, what exactly was the critical blunder?

The part where Daimen is a ditz?
That they may be back to square 1 on who Red Robe is when they really didn't have much to go on before that revelation anyway?
That Silverlake actually seems to possess some knowledge about the time loop and they just didn't really inform her all that well about it before?

[Darius Drake]

Well, it depends on your point of view. There were a few "critical blunders" mentioned from different points of view here, just none from our protagonists at this point in the story.

There's Damien's critical blunder that the assistance he promised Fortov would only be minor things like girl troubles and the like.

There's Fortov's critical blunder in believing that Damien would basically aid him in everything he needed to know to get through school.

There's what is now Tensen's critical blunder in not expecting Zach to be able to legally get revenge for the theft of the vast majority of his inheritance.

There was Silverlake's critical blunder in believing that she could win the fight, and not recognising Zach as a/the Combat Mage.

If there is one possible critical blunder that Zach & Zorian made, it's that Silverlake would suggest something that they thought was sane to check their argument.

[Darius Drake]

Chapter 77, Testing, just went up. Will be reading about Primordials soon.

Spoiler for After reading the chapter:

Edit Add: Ooh! Well, what Primordials are make a lot more sense now, as does the "The World's actually a Dragon" myth being so prevalent. And we now know where another artifact is likely to be, and have a better transportation system for the characters. All in all an interesting chapter

[sasuke706]

It's an "experimental" ship.
Meaning things are bound to go wrong.
And then Zorian has to learn more about engineering to fix it.

Or maybe everything will go smoothly for once.

The Old gods kind of sound like assholes.
Just the primordials sound like bigger assholes.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by sasuke706

It's an "experimental" ship.
Meaning things are bound to go wrong.
And then Zorian has to learn more about engineering to fix it.

Or maybe everything will go smoothly for once.

The Old gods kind of sound like assholes.
Just the primordials sound like bigger assholes.

all gods are assholes.

never read about one that isn't

[Darius Drake]

Originally Posted by sasuke706

It's an "experimental" ship.
Meaning things are bound to go wrong.
And then Zorian has to learn more about engineering to fix it.

Or maybe everything will go smoothly for once.

The Old gods kind of sound like assholes.
Just the primordials sound like bigger assholes.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

all gods are assholes.

never read about one that isn't

From what I've heard, Hades was a pretty decent guy, particularly for a God. The only black mark against his name that I know of was kidnapping his wife, and it's possible that the kidnapping only happened due to her mother being obnoxious. Of course, that myth was created purely to explain winter, but still.

As for the Gods vs Primordials, we don't actually know which were the bigger assholes. Gods could have just protected Mortals due to getting something out of it, or as an excuse to fight the Primordials.

Also, we already knew that Gods were assholes in this world from other information received.

As for the airship, I fully recognize that it will likely go boom at least once, near where Zach & Zorian need to go. For a relative distance of near.

[Breimn]

They should fill the ship with poisonous gas and send it crashing against the wasp colony.

[pervypig]

^ That's almost the same as my proposal of freezing the Grey hunter wholesale except for its eggs; it won't work unless the author specifically said so. But yeah, it sure sounds fun; chemical bombing from above.

Personally, I'd like to know what they intend to do about Silverlake's stalking tendencies. I've got a hunch that the old witch won't give up and hound them, probably offering them an exchange for knowledge by the end of the month. Just what else could she possibly offer, I wonder.

An interesting study of life in general, though, is that Silverlake had lived for around 100+ years, while the boys, with their knowledge accumulation for around 10 yrs (or so?) seemed to be capable of outdoing virtually everyone and everything (including the aforementioned magic-immune spider). Even Silverlake herself did not attempt to pick a fight with them after seeing them get serious. Doesn't that strike anyone as strange because it seems to reinforce an idea that, given enough time to overcome a situation that does not change at all, anyone (even a flop like Zach) can surpass it, but in real life, because there are no repeat runs, people just fail to learn and become proficient even if they had 100 years to do it?

[bludvein]

^I think your reading a little too deep into it. It's true that Silverlake didn't want to tangle with them, but by her own admission she's not much of a fighter. Just living 100 years doesn't mean she should kick ass when she hardly fights or focuses on combat magic. Also, her taking a step back from an imminent fight doesn't mean much. As long as she didn't have 100% grasp there was no reason to risk on her part, so it doesn't mean she thought she would definitely lose.

Zach and Zorian have a wide range of competencies, but outside their specialties they can only be said to have a high standard. Far from "outdoing everyone and everything" like you claimed. That ninja spider took a lot of failures before they succeeded. Oganj handed Zach's ass to him dozens of times. The aranea matriarchs would make Zorian look like an amateur with his mind magic. Etc. They are good, but far from all powerful. Their growth seems logical to me within the circumstances.

[pervypig]

^ But that's my point - they outdo everyone because they are given multiple chances to do the same stuff and predict what would happen in the same situation again and again. And they can overcome things that people with far more real life years than they have spent in the loop, people like Silverlake and Damien, could not. In Damien's case, I give you that he isn't really that much older than Zorian, but he had a team at his back, with far more combined experiences than both Z combined.

Silverlake would never be able to get the spider eggs she want if she kept using traps, magical or otherwise. And outside of the time-loop, even if she had the time to come up with another plan to catch it, the grey hunter can also adapt to it. See, improvements to oneself will not be sufficient if one's opponent changes faster or the situation and environment changes.

Also the tale is going the direction of them defeating a 1000 year old lich with all the time in the world to combat every strong fighter in history imaginable, destroying entire armies. Yes, they must defeat that lich-king unless there's another way to steal his crown that they need to get out of the loop. Of course, the author can cop-out and give them a way to steal it without ever encountering the lich at all, but I guess not many people would like to see that - particularly when they still had to beat another time-looper with an unknown amount of time in the loop.

And all that seem to be setting up a debate for which is more potent: real-life experience in a world that moves on, or experience gained in a static, unchanging world. If the static world trumps everyone, even those with far longer years behind them, I question the author's theory of learning.

[bludvein]

^not sure what you're getting at here. Being able to overcome things through massive trial and error doesn't mean they are somehow more skilled or successful than others. It just means they learned the rotes to a particular encounter.

Well yeah, she was probably worried about damaging the eggs she needs for her youth potion. Zach and Zorian flubbed that part how many times again before they got a working program?

Zach still hasn't beaten that lich even once within his decades of restarts, no matter what he tried. Quatach Ichl has proved to be practically invincible 1 on 1 in-setting and well worth his background. If they eventually beat him, it will either be a clever trick or ganging up on him with a bunch of other helpers.

Given infinite redos, of course they learn faster than others. I don't think that's particularly crooked or anything, just common sense. Sane people would avoid risking their lives and take the safe road wherever possible.

[pervypig]

Originally Posted by bludvein

^not sure what you're getting at here. Being able to overcome things through massive trial and error doesn't mean they are somehow more skilled or successful than others. It just means they learned the rotes to a particular encounter.
:
:
Given infinite redos, of course they learn faster than others. I don't think that's particularly crooked or anything, just common sense. Sane people would avoid risking their lives and take the safe road wherever possible.

I never said that the Zs overcoming their issues through multiple trials is 'crooked' - In fact, that's how normal people would learn to do things as well. But the difference between them and the way people learn things in real-time is that they learn about stuff in an unchanging environment.

Consider the case of Zorian. Just how many times did he undergo Xvim's sarge-drill training? According to Xvim himself, he did not intend to continue through that for more than 4 weeks (just the right amount of time for time loop to end). I have no doubts that Xvim's regime would probably include his student practicing shaping regularly long after his drills, but Zorian bit the bullet for years until Xvim himself got surprised at his proficiency within the time-loop.

Under that sort of situation, would it have been better for Zorian to have abandoned it for something else earlier - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting something else to come out of it. Granted, he was eventually rewarded by Xvim taking notice of him, but how much limited time in the loop had he wasted on diminished returns for this? I would be very much surprised if Zorian managed to hit Xvim's level just because he practiced for a thousand days.

What I am asking, is static experience (practicing, trial & error) more important than flowing experience (learning as you go). Suppose you went into a cave and encountered a bear, you learnt that you would not be killed if you play dead for that cave and bear. In another time when you went in another cave, and encountered a bear, would you do the same? Take the Grey Hunter that Z&Z brought down. It just happened to be that same one that Silverlake had been baiting for years. If it was another one, could Z&Z have a much easier time? That's something I would have wondered.

[Namorax]

One of the major reasons for their "success" is that the Z's don't have to fear death.

Just take a look at Silverlake: Even though she is quite poweful for a witch, she decided to back down because she didn't want to die.
If she had been assured of her survival, do you think she wouldn't have attacked? She might've given it a try and then cut her losses, but everyone apart from Zorian and Zach (and maybe the Lich) should be pretty scared of dying.

That should also factor into everything, IMO...

[pervypig]

^ Good point. Being able to confirm that certain things lead to certain death is certainly an advantage (pardon the pun). But it also made them waste time on things that may have an easier solution: such as searching for another Grey Hunter instead of keep trying to kill that one.

There's also the part where magical proficiency and capacity also carry over, so I won't really say that they aren't "cheating". If Z&Z had been muggles instead, no matter how many times they looped, their physical body would have stayed at the same condition from the very beginning. For them not to "cheat", you would have to keep every aspect of their body, including mana capacity, the same.

[Blankdom]

New one is up.

Not too sure what to say about this chapter. Maybe it's tying up loose ends; maybe it's revealing 'character'; iunno.

[Darius Drake]

Haven't checked up in here since my last post.

@ Pervy Pig: The learning environment of the Z's was never static to the point of stagnation, though. Yes, Zorian went through repetitive mana-control training with Xvim, but how he trained grew and developed with his growth. Zach, meanwhile, buggered off and got training from whoever he felt gave good lessons. Also, they're both gaining otherwise-impossible practical combat experience during their journey, and Zach's practically a Combat Magic Specialist. So it is understandable that Zorian's 5? Years of training and Zach's 25+ Years of training would result in them being comparable in combat prowess to the non-combat mages they're running into. Honestly, though, Alanic is probably a combat mage as strong or stronger than them (definitely Zorian, possibly Zach), while Xvim is almost certainly better and has a wider array of powerful magic fields under his belt than Zorian will even at the end of the series.

@ Blankdom: Yeah, this latest chapter was notably fillery. The thing is, this is what we do expect from this writer. Something happens that we know was going to happen and we get everything about it explained to us. A "hitch" in the plans comes along and we get some more information. Then we get setup for the next chapter.

Basically, I see this latest chapter to be a set-up. They've got the airship now, for the moment, know how to fly it and will soon go and find the next relic, which they couldn't do this chapter due to it being a BIG THING and likely incorporating a significant battle, and thus deserving/requiring it's own chapter.

[FormerLurker]

Oh boy. That latest chapter is really exciting. The man himself makes an appearance. Really excited to see him outside of a combat scenario though. Since he has like only spoken once out of one.

[pervypig]

Gosh, I'm thinking Quatach-Ichi's one of the coolest villains I've ever read. Guy's polite, cultured, "do not consider himself unreasonable", AND practically invincible. Red Robe pales in comparison.

[LifeHowling]

"I know everyone thinks I'm jealous but that's not normal!" said Akoja in a hushed but agitated voice. "I'm pretty smart and I study all the time and I'm still having problems with the curriculum. And we've both been in the same class as Neolu for the past two years and she was never this good. And… and now she's beating me in every single class!"

"Kind of like Zach," said Zorian.

"Exactly like Zach!" she agreed. "They even hang out together, two of them and one other girl I don't know, behaving like… like they're in their own private little world."

"Or like they're a couple," said Zorian, before frowning. "Triple? What's the word for a romantic relationship between 3 people?"

Akoja scoffed. "Whatever. The point is the three of them do nothing but waste time together and antagonize the teachers and get perfect scores anyway. They even refused the chance to get transferred to 1st tier groups, can you believe that!?"

https://www.fictionpress.com/s/29618...er-of-Learning

Who is "other girl I don't know"?