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Marion · 2010-02-11, 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

The fact that he was able to do so implies that he had the head's ring... Maybe he solved the epitaph early again?

Well it does explain Maria's death, provided that she is slated to die as soon as someone solves the epitaph.

Koi · 2010-02-12, 00:26

So... Battler put the letter...
Is he an accomplice?

Jan-Poo · 2010-02-12, 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

At the beginning of Episode 5, Battler already refused to work with Bernkastel anymore, and Lambda couldn't let her use another human piece as a detective without revealing part of the mystery. Even if Piece Battler could be used to help solve the epitaph, he certainly wouldn't take most of the actions Bern wanted out of a piece either. So Bern and Lambda made an agreement to use a fantasy piece as a detective, with the understanding that Lambda would make Erika's observations "objective enough" for Bern to actually get red text related to them. However, the red text she could get was completely at the GM's discretion, which is why Lambda was able to prevent the study's windows were never opened after it started raining from being used in the study battle.

In Episode 6, it looks like Battler decided to go along with that agreement. He wanted a fight with Meta Erika, and he wasn't in any mood to let Bern play with his own piece either, so that was the only reasonable course of action. Bern did end up discarding the "detective's authority" part, which put her at a disadvantage from a mystery-solving perspective, but we already know why she did that -- she wasn't trying to solve the mystery, she was trying to kill Battler.

The problem I see is that:

Erika is the detective

This red can't be labeled as totally meaningless. Certainly Erika isn't a detective by profession, so the only possible meaning this red can have is that Erika has all the powers and authorities given to a "detective" in accordance to the mystery rules.

So I can't really think that Erika doesn't really have an objective perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koi

So... Battler put the letter...
Is he an accomplice?

There's no way it was Battler, there would a be an huge logic error if he was. Well maybe it should have been Battler according to GM Battler's plans, but as soon as the seal was placed on the guestroom that option was forever lost. And it goes without saying that this also applies to any of the first 6 victims.

LyricalAura · 2010-02-12, 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The problem I see is that:

Erika is the detective

This red can't be labeled as totally meaningless. Certainly Erika isn't a detective by profession, so the only possible meaning this red can have is that Erika has all the powers and authorities given to a "detective" in accordance to the mystery rules.

So I can't really think that Erika doesn't really have an objective perspective.

But that's what I explained before. There's no rule saying that the detective can't die, and a corpse is hardly in a position to objectively observe anything. That's why Battler can observe golden butterflies after midnight on October 5th, and it's a potential explanation for why he could see Beatrice and Kinzo at the end of Episode 2. Certainly better than "he got drunk and hallucinated it."

Tyabann · 2010-02-12, 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

and it's a potential explanation for why he could see Beatrice and Kinzo at the end of Episode 2. Certainly better than "he got drunk and hallucinated it."

Why does no one pay attention to my rare flashes of brilliance? *sadface*

A while back I came up with the explanation that 'Piece-Battler is able to see magic at the end of Ep2 because Meta-Battler surrendered to the witch and lost his detective's authority.' I'd like to think that would wash away all the little inconsistencies present there, but everyone else at the time said him 'being drunk' was the better solution.

(As a bonus, my theory gives the entire sequence where Rosa finds a letter and throws Battler out of the parlor the possibility of being a fake scene, which I'm sure could be useful somehow. >_>)

LyricalAura · 2010-02-12, 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Why does no one pay attention to my rare flashes of brilliance? *sadface*

A while back I came up with the explanation that 'Piece-Battler is able to see magic at the end of Ep2 because Meta-Battler surrendered to the witch and lost his detective's authority.' I'd like to think that would wash away all the little inconsistencies present there, but everyone else at the time said him 'being drunk' was the better solution.

(As a bonus, my theory gives the entire sequence where Rosa finds a letter and throws Battler out of the parlor the possibility of being a fake scene, which I'm sure could be useful somehow. >_>)

Beato promised to appear in front of Rosa and tell her that only five master keys exist if Battler completely submitted, and Beato keeps her promises. Since she never kept her end of the bargain, Battler must not have kept his.

Tyabann · 2010-02-12, 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Beato promised to appear in front of Rosa and tell her that only five master keys exist if Battler completely submitted, and Beato keeps her promises. Since she never kept her end of the bargain, Battler must not have kept his.

B-but my theory is so elegant!

Well, she DID later appear in front of Rosa... she just didn't get around to telling her about the master keys.

If Battler had been shot in the face by an overprotective Rosa, you might think there would have been at least some hint as to that fact. That, and he's listed as having died on the tenth twilight in the endroll, as I recall, which should mean that it was the Rokkenjima Explosion that killed him... but then, the endroll is highly unreliable.

Jan-Poo · 2010-02-12, 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

But that's what I explained before. There's no rule saying that the detective can't die, and a corpse is hardly in a position to objectively observe anything. That's why Battler can observe golden butterflies after midnight on October 5th, and it's a potential explanation for why he could see Beatrice and Kinzo at the end of Episode 2. Certainly better than "he got drunk and hallucinated it."

Ep6 heavily hints that "losing detective authority = ceasing to be a detective"

A dead detective isn't a detective anymore. And the red about Erika being a detective was stated once the game was already started. It is very unlikely that she managed to get to the island alive just to die a little later.

Koi · 2010-02-12, 08:56

But, a detective can't be the killer.(part of knox decalogue)
So...
Even though she cut off 5 people's head, Erika can't be the culprit.
Battler is not the culprit according to the red truth.
Natsuhi is not too, according to red truth...
But no red has ever forbid them to HELP the real culprit, intentionally or unintentionally. Right?
Even the detective can accidently help right?

Jan-Poo · 2010-02-12, 09:18

Erika is not the detective in EP6, that's how she was allowed to kill 5 people. However she was the detective in EP5.

Ronove · 2010-02-12, 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Erika is not the detective in EP6, that's how she was allowed to kill 5 people. However she was the detective in EP5.

Hmm... I remember a red that "Erika successfully killed the people" or something. COrrect me if I'm wrong. Does that mean they weren't dead before, or in a near-death state?

Also, if we're saying Erika is the culprit in EP6, and she wasn't even there in Ep4 and before, does that mean the culprit is supposed to be random, in which a certain factor triggers their murderous plan?

Anyone have ideas on this "factor"?

Axilios · 2010-02-12, 10:16

Quote:

so, if we're saying Erika is the culprit in EP6, and she wasn't even there in Ep4 and before, does that mean the culprit is supposed to be random, in which a certain factor triggers their murderous plan?

Anyone have ideas on this "factor"?

Well, an interresting I had read about that is that she is a cloak for the "culprit", or something like that.
There is also a lot of strange scenes in ep5 which are showing that since she is here, some things just get stranger and stranger.
However, some red text are in the way. But I think that it would be good to keep this in mind, it could have some useful parts.

Koi · 2010-02-12, 10:41

well... Beato acknowledge her as a detective, so I thought...
Weird huh? Like when she listen for their breath... how can she not hear theirs? I mean, she just say something along the line of Battler is not the culprit. She listened for his breath, she heard that he went straight to sleep, but can't hear the cousin's breath?
Sooo weird...

Nayrael · 2010-02-12, 10:55

Quote:

Also, if we're saying Erika is the culprit in EP6, and she wasn't even there in Ep4 and before, does that mean the culprit is supposed to be random, in which a certain factor triggers their murderous plan?

Different culprit in every episode is quite a possibility. After all, nobody said that only one person wants to kill.
Also, it may be possible that there are more culprits working together, but they always find betraying one another.

Quote:

for his breath, she heard that he went straight to sleep, but can't hear the cousin's breath?
Sooo weird...

I think he was sleeping near the wall so he was near enough. She probably couldn't hear further away.

Axilios · 2010-02-12, 13:21

Personally I was thinking about another part ;

Quote:

I softly pulled the blanket up......covering George-aniki's corpse.
His neck......was split wide open.

...It was probably.....larger and deeper than his mouth.
Would it have looked like a clean and neat corpse if that part had been covered up...?
Of course not...

[...]

So I stripped the blanket off of my bed and placed it on top of the first one.
......But there were only two extra blankets.

So if we covered one more of the corpses, ......we wouldn't be able to cover any more.

I feel bad about the ones we can't cover, ......but for some reason, ...times like these make me feel like muttering 'don't complain about it being unfair' inside my head......
"......Kyrie. Put blankets over all of them. ...Wouldn't want them to catch cold."
"............Sure."
Kyrie-san and I covered the other corpses up to their heads with their blankets, just like George-aniki's...

Either I'm bad at understanding, either they have covered 4 corpses ( Rosa,Maria, Jessica, George) with 3 blanket... or they covered two corpses (Maria and Rosa for example) with one blanket, but then

Quote:

So if we covered one more of the corpses, ......we wouldn't be able to cover any more.

become useless... And some very strange coincidences, such as maria's memory and Erika's photographic memory, etc...
I could be wrong, but there is more and more of this kind of things...

Quote:

Beato acknowledge her as a detective

Err, it was Lambda, Am i wrong?

Ronove · 2010-02-12, 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axilios

Personally I was thinking about another part ;

Either I'm bad at understanding, either they have covered 4 corpses ( Rosa,Maria, Jessica, George) with 3 blanket... or they covered two corpses (Maria and Rosa for example) with one blanket, but then

become useless... And some very strange coincidences, such as maria's memory and Erika's photographic memory, etc...
I could be wrong, but there is more and more of this kind of things...

Err, it was Lambda, Am i wrong?

Hmm... remember this blue: It wasn't stated that something that is not a corpse can be identified as a corpse.

Since the detective didn't really see the corpses, can it be considered something else? Possibly a play on words? Or soemthing that looks like it? (Animal Corpse?)

Axilios · 2010-02-12, 13:37

Well, I was thinking about lambdadelta paying on words when she is telling the story; after all, she do that quite often, remember;

Quote:

'At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion'!"

In other words, no matter how much they struggled, those 8 people, including Erika, could not have existed inside the mansion, much less in front of the door.

Including Erika, with "those", we can count 7 people. So it is probably not related to this, but it is clear that Lambda really loves using of her position as a game master to show false things, give hints and taunt the player.

Renall · 2010-02-12, 15:20

I don't see any particular reason why the detective has to be real. Obviously their objective viewpoint becomes a bit tricky in that case, but certainly one could make up a scenario in which a nonexistent observer is the sole reliable witness to events. Books have been written in such a vein, although rarely mysteries.

LyricalAura · 2010-02-12, 17:03

Since we've spent so much time focusing on the logic error, there hasn't been a lot of discussion about other interesting info that popped up. So, here's some things that jumped out at me when I was taking notes.

Spoiler for Notes and oddities, long:

EDIT:
I don't know whether this is significant, but Nanjo only had four lines this episode. Three of them were inconsequential lines during the riddle competition at dinner. The fourth was telling everyone else in the neighboring room they ought to get some sleep...

Jan-Poo · 2010-02-12, 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronove

Hmm... I remember a red that "Erika successfully killed the people" or something. COrrect me if I'm wrong. Does that mean they weren't dead before, or in a near-death state?

Also, if we're saying Erika is the culprit in EP6, and she wasn't even there in Ep4 and before, does that mean the culprit is supposed to be random, in which a certain factor triggers their murderous plan?

Anyone have ideas on this "factor"?

they were all alive. That's what Erika said, and she knows because they didn't actually stayed still when she killed them, so they weren't in a near-death state or under the effect of some apparent death drug.

Is see little chances that Erika lied because Battler should know if the 5 were supposed to be alive or conscious or whatever.

@LyricalAura

I think Kanon's memories might have received a radical embellishment for the occasion. I wouldn't consider them 100% accurate.

2010-02-12, 09:18	Link #1490
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Erika is not the detective in EP6, that's how she was allowed to kill 5 people. However she was the detective in EP5. __________________

2010-02-12, 17:03	Link #1499
LyricalAura Dea ex Kakera Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sea of Fragments	Since we've spent so much time focusing on the logic error, there hasn't been a lot of discussion about other interesting info that popped up. So, here's some things that jumped out at me when I was taking notes. Spoiler for Notes and oddities, long: During the riddle competition, Piece Erika tells Piece Battler that he's been well-trained by his games with witches, and talks about how observers are free to propose whatever they want within the restraints of the red text. Piece Battler directly responds to her, asking if she's talking about some kind of novel. Shannon and George promised to meet up with each other in the arbor at roughly 10:00pm. May apply to most episodes. Shannon apparently talked to Rudolf about how Battler was doing in school a lot. She heard that Battler got into a lot of trouble because he was popular with the girls. She also noted that "Asumu was also pretty amazed," which implies that she talked to Asumu about it too. When Gohda bursts out of the parlor yelling for an ambulance and the police, Erika stops him and tells him not to bother because the external phone lines are down. She has absolutely no way of knowing this. The only thing she's heard about the phones is that nobody picked up when Jessica called the servants' room and dining room in the mansion on the internal line. Krauss later claims the internal line won't connect to Kinzo's room and that the culprit may have broken it. Once again, nobody else actually bothers to check that the phones are broken. Battler only confirms that Rudolf, Krauss, Hideyoshi, and Gohda were not responsible for the first twilight murders. Since he was concerned about the word "culprit" being too broad, there is a possibility that they were involved in helping fake the victims' deaths. The mansion is normally locked up during nightly rounds, but since this night was special, it was locked up immediately after the children left for the guesthouse. Gohda was in charge of locking up because he was the only one on duty in the mansion. There's a device that rings a chime in the servants' room when the entrance hall door is opened. Gohda would have noticed it when Battler and Maria entered, but according to Genji, he was out responding to a drink request from the adults. Hideyoshi confirms that Gohda was in the dining room responding to the requests for a long time during the break. It's abnormal for there to only be one servant on duty in the mansion on a night like this. It's especially abnormal for an important person like Genji to have been assigned to the guesthouse on such a night. According to Krauss, the one who set up the shifts was Natsuhi. This is exactly the same setup as in Episode 1, but in that episode, Kanon claimed that Krauss set up the shifts. The excuse given at that time for isolating the one-winged eagle servants, that they were spies for Kinzo, is an obvious lie. Hideyoshi knows that George has a special relationship with Shannon. Erika refers to her own body as a "cage of flesh", the same way Beato referred to her 1967 human self. Battler's shower contraption is odd because it seems specifically designed to hurt someone. Erika was nearly burned badly when she opened the bathroom door because the water heat was turned up as far as it could go. If all Battler wanted was a distraction, cold water would have served just as well. Battler doesn't state in red that the chain lock was cut by Gohda at the time the bodies were discovered. Since he only used blue, there's a possibility that it was cut at a different time. There's also an outside possibility that the chain wasn't cut at all, provided that the red about Erika repairing the chain can be circumvented. Kanon has a lot of unexpectedly positive relationships with the other characters. - Genji was like a father to him. Kanon's thankful about some things and resentful about others, so his feelings are ambivalent on balance. - Kumasawa was like a mother and helped him out a lot. Kanon feels a great debt to her. - Kinzo was oddly childish around him when the rest of the family was away, and got his help with a lot of weird pranks. He also let Kanon try shooting his guns. - Krauss was unexpectedly kind to him, and was under the mistaken impression that he was bullied by Kinzo. He talked to Kanon familiarly, like a classmate. - Natsuhi was especially strict with him due to rumors that she was being lenient with the male servants, but Kanon felt sorry for her because he saw her in pain a lot. - Gohda was generally unpleasant and Kanon hated him, but not the part of him that blushed and offered seconds when his cooking was praised. EDIT: I don't know whether this is significant, but Nanjo only had four lines this episode. Three of them were inconsequential lines during the riddle competition at dinner. The fourth was telling everyone else in the neighboring room they ought to get some sleep... Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-02-12 at 17:50.

2010-02-12, 00:26	Link #1482
Koi Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Indonesia	So... Battler put the letter... Is he an accomplice?

2010-02-12, 08:56	Link #1489
Koi Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Indonesia	But, a detective can't be the killer.(part of knox decalogue) So... Even though she cut off 5 people's head, Erika can't be the culprit. Battler is not the culprit according to the red truth. Natsuhi is not too, according to red truth... But no red has ever forbid them to HELP the real culprit, intentionally or unintentionally. Right? Even the detective can accidently help right?

2010-02-12, 10:41	Link #1493
Koi Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Indonesia	well... Beato acknowledge her as a detective, so I thought... Weird huh? Like when she listen for their breath... how can she not hear theirs? I mean, she just say something along the line of Battler is not the culprit. She listened for his breath, she heard that he went straight to sleep, but can't hear the cousin's breath? Sooo weird...

2010-02-12, 15:20	Link #1498
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	I don't see any particular reason why the detective has to be real. Obviously their objective viewpoint becomes a bit tricky in that case, but certainly one could make up a scenario in which a nonexistent observer is the sole reliable witness to events. Books have been written in such a vein, although rarely mysteries.