(L+CR) Chihayafuru Season 2

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by hamazura

Need moar sakurazawa sensei, milf

She's not a 'm' though (no children nor married not sure if she's living with someone or not).

[Anh_Minh]

She's a "Midori".

[Sol Falling]

Good episode... was S1's theme song always that high-pitched? It didn't sound as good as I remembered it, but that was a really good montage. Reminded me of a lot of the awesome stuff which had happened over the season.

Chihaya...is deep. That is, her emotions are deep. I can't really help the feeling that her sexual/romantic vulnerability teeters on the edge of dirtying her, though. This is particularly in the case of Arata, as while Taichi has had his happy accidents, I've never felt he could evoke Chihaya's wonder and passion the way Arata could. However as for Arata I just experience this undercurrent of uncertainty--in that no matter how pure, idealized we see him in the story, if he ever really realized/comprehended the sheer receptivity/passion of Chihaya's feelings towards him, there's reason their relationship could become something else entirely.

Anyway, I've never shipped Arata x Shinobu in the first place but I sorta wonder what those proponents who have voiced such an interest think of this episode from Arata's side. Far as I see it the idea of Arata x Shinobu never had any particular strength on Arata's side of the equation yet that would imply the basis is in Shinobu somehow having a romantic interest/being willing to chase Arata simply because he's continually defeated her. As if a breach of her pride calls for her to just roll over and accept a subservient position romantically. Well, it's simply all very tenuous.

On some other random note, I'm always intrigued to see Chitose. Or rather, I like it, because it shows she's just a tsundere. Someone with very different values and a strong self-concept separate from Chihaya's, but she does really care in the end.

In any case, Kanade was such a fine and wonderful friend to Taichi in this episode that the thought even came to me to start shipping them, lol. Well, to call the Hyakunin Isshu a collection of love poems, it's only natural Kanade would comprehend and be moved by Taichi's feelings. I wonder if this explicitly romantic reading of the poems is something Suegetsu wants to invoke as inherent/natural to the game/sport also. It would certainly frame Taichi's struggle/the whole love triangle business in a different light in the sense of the whole story.

A third season would be great.

[SeijiSensei]

I never suggested that Arata had the same feelings as Shinobu; I don't think he does. There does seem to be a divide in the characters with Arata, Chihaya, and Shinobu as largely unaware of sexuality and romance even at sixteen. It often seems that, for these three, the intense feelings that adolescence brings have been sublimated into a passion for karuta. Kana and Sumire as romantics stand at the other pole. Sumire is more extreme since, for her, karuta is still largely instrumental as a method of getting near to Taichi. Kana has a much deeper connection to karuta, but even for her it seems more instrumental, a means of becoming more deeply involved with the poems she loves so much.

What makes Taichi such an interesting character is that he is torn by both these forces. While he began playing karuta as a means of growing closer to Chihaya, it's now clear that he wants to succeed at the game itself. It's doubtful that he could ever suppress his feelings the way Arata does, though. Getting to class A was an important achievement for Taichi, yet he's largely oblivious to his success in the tournament out of concern for Chihaya's welfare.

Enzo's comments about "suki" were very helpful for understanding this episode. I thought that it was out of character for Chihaya to declare her "love" for Arata so openly. If Chihaya's poem was interpreted as true romantic love, it was a rather abrupt change in the character of this show. Translating it as "I like Arata" or even "I really like Arata" seems more fitting with Suetsugu's subtle portrayal of adolescents in the throes of complex and unexplored feelings.

Earlier I suggested that I thought Sakuragawa saw herself in Chihaya. I also think Suetsugu uses her to depict one possible future for Chihaya. As an adult Sakuragawa obviously has had more experience with sexuality and romance than any of the high schoolers, yet one can envision how karuta may have been more important than romance for her as well.

I was rather hoping to see Shinobu visit Chihaya in the hospital carrying a "Daddy Bear" gift.

[Anh_Minh]

Arata does sneak peeks at porn magazines, so he isn't completely without libido...

[Guardian Enzo]

I agree with almost everything you said, Sensei, but I'm not so sure I agree about Arata. I think he's got feelings for Chihaya, and he's quite aware of them. I think that's one reason (far from the only one, as I've already argued) he wants to go to Tokyo. I think it's why he flat-out asked Taichi if he and Chihaya were going out. When it comes to romantic feelings Chihaya's bakayaroucity is on another level.

That's why I think the translation issue is a crucial one - as you say, an outright declaration of love - for anybody - would have been out of character for her. It would have been a shocking, out of left field development. When she actually says "I'll always really like Karuta, and Arata" Suetsugu's intent in my view is to reinforce that Chihaya is still confused about her own feelings. She hasn't separated the way she feels for Arata from the way she feels about Karuta. Yes, she loves Arata - and she loves Karuta, and she loves Taichi and Kana and Daddybear. But she doesn't understand how to sort all that out yet.

I can only speculate that CR's intent was to highlight the soap-opera aspects of the dialogue, because that's what sells subscriptions. So "I like" becomes "I love" and "I need to be strong enough to respond to that sort of passion" becomes "I need to learn how to receive Arata's passion". But I think it paints a false picture of what Suetsugu was trying to accomplish.

[frodonk]

any announcements for season 3?

it was interesting how arata managed to go into "chihayafuru" mode whenever he has a match by using that time with chihaya in that apartment as a calming thought.

Once again, it was shown what eternal grandmaster level of training can do to a person when it was shown how the older wataya's question (when did you most have fun when playing karuta?) led him to develop his unique mindset no matter who it is that he's facing.

now, whenever arata goes back to that time when they were in that apartment playing karuta, does he think that his opponent is a beginner that he can easily beat? or is he really having fun, imagining the match as a sort of friendly casual game? does he also see himself as the "master" of that space, so that he gets a real confidence boost whenever he imagines that he and his opponent is in that room, and that his opponent doesn't have a chance inside there?

hah, it has also been established, at least in the anime, that arata might have good memory, but mostly it stems from his balance, ie he is using both his left and right brain at the same time. taichi, based on this, i guess would be only using his left brain, the one concerning mechanical memorization and such.

it was also nice how they showed both taichi and arata as the only players in the tournament who never got beaten, in taichi's case, it was because he's an A class level player stuck in class B, chances of him losing to B level players is lower.

all in all, the scenes covered by this season was shorter, since it was only until the omi jingu arc, but at the same time, every week's ~30 min episode almost always felt as a 5-10 min episode, so it was even shorter for me lol.

[Guardian Enzo]

Taichi also had to get through an entire team tournament without losing, including beating multiple Class-A players.

Don't expect any S3 announcements for a while. Based on the manga schedule we're looking at two years minimum, realistically, before there's sufficient material.

[frodonk]

2 years? longer than when s1 got a s2? oh well..

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I agree with almost everything you said, Sensei, but I'm not so sure I agree about Arata. I think he's got feelings for Chihaya, and he's quite aware of them.

I can agree with that, but it does seem like every time we see him thinking about Chihaya it is in the context of karuta. That idealized game in the apartment seems the dominant motif, rather than a yearning to connect with a beautiful young woman.

Overall though, I'd agree with you and Anh_Minh that Arata seems more mature than either Chihaya or Shinobu.

[taichi-kun]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Middle of chapter 93.

Damn, I knew the end was coming, but there's still so much to look forward to.

thanks!

So here people is saying that chihaya said like and not love.. mmmm ok.That's why I want to read the manga.

[hamazura]

Mashima should just move on and go to dat miss heavy make up
Or kill arata...

[Quadratic]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Once again, we see Crunchyroll make a curious translation choice, which has been a theme with Chihayafuru. They translate Chihaya’s thought as "I’ll always love Karuta, and I’ll always love Arata." In fact, Chihaya uses the word "suki" – which translates more correctly as "like" – but can also mean "love" in certain contexts.

I don’t want to make too much of this, but I think it’s a fascinating illustration of why Japanese doesn’t always translate well into English – and also a crucial one in the context of the moment. In Japanese, many times translation boils down to context – the same word can mean different things in different situations, and even then it isn’t always clear (as witness Taichi’s use of "teki" earlier, which could mean "enemy" but probably meant "rival" as he intended it). In terms of "suki", it generally means like – the only time it would normally be used to express love would be in directly addressing someone ("Chihaya, suki."). In referring to someone in the third person "daisuki" or "ai" would usually be used to express love.

Of course, it’s clear Chihaya loves Karuta, and she’s certainly expressing her love for Arata here. It’s also clear in this moment that she has romantic feelings for him. But I think the reason Suetsugu used "suki" here is to express the fact that Chihaya still cannot separate her feelings for Arata and her feelings for Karuta – which I think is a vital theme going forward. It isn’t so much that the CR translation was wrong, but that it doesn’t convey the full meaning of what the author probably intended. While her wording seems intended to convey ambiguity (which she's been doing for the entire series) the translation seems intended to convey an unambiguous meaning which doesn't exist.

Semantics argument, but "love" and "enemy" convey the bare minimum message being brought across in both cases better than "like" or "rival".

At a minimum, Chihaya "loves" Arata, can be like saying Arata loves his grandfather.
Saying "Arata really likes his grandfather" is such an odd statement, as it doesn't convey the depth of of their relationship.
We can at least say that Chihaya is calling Arata a friend for life and that their distance makes it painful.

I disagree with you saying rival is the more appropriate term.
At least in this show, "rival" (or riburu, or however they say it) has been reserved for something friendlier, eg. Chihaya calling Shinobu her rival (though Shinobu probably doesn't see her as that).
Considering the dark atmosphere, how it was uttered it under his breath, and the fact Taichi did not use the word "rival", like Chihaya, it's clear he didn't mean it on the same level as Chihaya.

[Guardian Enzo]

Yes, she certainly is calling him a friend for life and certainly, their distance is painful to her. But that's consistent with her word choice (or rather, Suetsugu's) whereas an unabashed declaration of love is not. It's not a question of semantics - it's a question of choosing between wish fulfilment and what the characters actually said.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by taichi-kun

hey do you know which manga chapter was adapted in ep25 ?

Chapter 92 and about half of 93. All up, 43 chapters were covered this season, about 6 less than for season 1. Personally, I thought they adapted it pretty well. The final scene involving Arata is, if memory serves, not part of the manga...it’s just emphasising the point that he is going to stay in Fukui for another 20 months.

Though suisen doesn’t mean a scholarship, just a recommendation, meaning that he doesn't have to pass entrance exams to get in. That’s why Arata’s parents are panicking about the ~$40,000 that Arata’s first year in Tokyo would cost them. It’s still a significant achievement for Arata, because otherwise, he’d have to focus on studying for exams and not have any time for karuta and the Meijin title.

What Sakurazawa-sensei says about Arata’s karuta is quite interesting if there’s anyone interested in karuta ‘talents’, and their connection to playing styles and techniques. Arata does not have hearing on the level of Suou, Chihaya/Rion or even Shinobu. But he can pick up the ‘half-syllables’. For example, this would mean that although he doesn’t distinguish the entire second syllable of “momo” and “moro” based on hearing just the first syllable, he can still pick up on the “m-” vs. the “r-” sound very early. This is something that he combines with the cross-hand to great effect when battling against players with better hearing than himself.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

(as witness Taichi’s use of "teki" earlier, which could mean "enemy" but probably meant "rival" as he intended it)

Should probably have done this after last episode, but better late than never, I guess.

The enemy/rival thing is interesting, if only because Chihaya used "rival" (ライバル) last episode. In the manga, however, the kanji used was exactly the same. So why did Suetsugu choose to have Taichi say "teki" instead of "rival"? Is it because that's just the word Taichi would choose to express the idea of Arata being a rival to him, or is it because there is something more complex, a mixture of the two that isn't really conveyed by one term in English?

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

In terms of "suki", it generally means like – the only time it would normally be used to express love would be in directly addressing someone ("Chihaya, suki."). In referring to someone in the third person "daisuki" or "ai" would usually be used to express love.

Actually, “ai” (or rather, “aishiteru”) is hardly ever used, and I would say that "suki" can mean "love" even if referring to someone/something in third person. The problem is that which term is used where and for what meaning depends not only on the situation, whether it is being used for a person as opposed to a non-person (daisuki/love is more often used for things), but also on the person who says/thinks it. (These two discussions about expression of love in Japanese are pretty good.)

Chihaya's feelings for karuta itself, even if she says "suki", can only be expressed as "love". So, I think that it could only have been translated as "love" ("really like" sounds far too awkward, and "like" simply doesn't cut it. I'd have changed the other line though, the "passion" one, to something like "...so that I can respond to that passion", with the accompanying images keeping it ambiguous). But as you've observed, the important thing to realise is that it's being linked to Chihaya's love for karuta.

Though leaving aside Taichi, I disagree that her feelings for Kana and Daddybear would amount to the same kind of 'love'. Whatever it is that Chihaya is feeling at this point (which she doesn't understand, anyway), neither English nor Japanese have different words for romantic vs. other kinds of 'love'. Greek arguably does though: perhaps what Chihaya has expressed here is more akin to agape at present.

As for what Suetsugu-sensei is trying to do, perhaps what she said around two years ago, before this part was revealed even in the manga, might help:

「“勢いの強いさま”という“ちはやふる”の本当の意味を、千早が知り表現していく物語なのだ と思います」

I would say that this is a story depicting Chihaya coming to know and demonstrate the true meaning of "chihayafuru", which is used to mean 'a state of durable power'

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think it's why he flat-out asked Taichi if he and Chihaya were going out. When it comes to romantic feelings Chihaya's bakayaroucity is on another level.

He didn't actually ask "flat-out". Arata just assumed that they were dating, since he knows that Taichi has liked her since they were kids. And to someone as (frankly speaking) awkward with girls as Arata, this means that he shouldn't be contacting Chihaya directly.

Originally Posted by frodonk

now, whenever arata goes back to that time when they were in that apartment playing karuta, does he think that his opponent is a beginner that he can easily beat? or is he really having fun, imagining the match as a sort of friendly casual game? does he also see himself as the "master" of that space, so that he gets a real confidence boost whenever he imagines that he and his opponent is in that room, and that his opponent doesn't have a chance inside there?

If you go back and watch the first episode of season 1 again, he did really enjoy himself, simply because he was finally able to play karuta with someone in Tokyo.

======

And a couple of other things things that I’m not sure people have brought up here.

Two versions of the ending theme have been played over the credits.

Spoiler for it's long...:

The main ending:

On the hillside road painted a madder red,
I pause my footsteps and stand still for a while, one day

In your absence, thoughts of you float to my mind,
And I search for the path that seems so easily lost.

Wherever you are right now, I doubt that things would change
Our hearts remain connected, even now.

No matter how far apart we are, please never forget
The passion (I felt in you)* that day, the dream that the two of us built together
As the evening sun bleeds into the madder sky,
Let’s turn our gazes upwards and keep moving forward.

*some would translate this as “The passion we felt that day”. The reason I’ve used this one is because of what Chihaya says in this last episode, which connects back to what she said at the end of the very first Chihayafuru episode, after her first game with Arata as a child:

On that day when I played karuta with Arata for the very first time, what I discovered was not karuta, it was Arata’s passion.

The ending used for episodes 6 and 23:

On that day I had yet to realise
Just how important a meeting it was
We’ve clashed a lot and cried as well
But the time we’ve passed together has been irreplaceable

And now I watch over you,
Closer than anyone,
As you wordlessly strive for what you are trying to do

I believe in you, so please do not give up
Continue pursuing the dream that we now share
As the sun sets in a madder sky,
Let’s not look back and keep moving forward.


Quite obviously referring to Arata and Taichi respectively, which marks a change from the first season’s ending theme, which only seems to refer to Arata.

I'm also finding it interesting that people are praising Kana for being ‘a good wingman’ to Taichi. Certainly, it was very heartwarming to see her trying to encourage him. But at the same time, as the apparent aim of her ‘plotting’ is to get them hooking up at the Fujisaki camp, she’s completely putting aside Chihaya’s own feelings, which she appears to have discerned are about Arata. What does that say about Kana as a friend (to Chihaya)? I’m personally a bit ambivalent about what she’s done there.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by karice67

Chihaya's feelings for karuta itself, even if she says "suki", can only be expressed as "love". So, I think that it could only have been translated as "love" ("really like" sounds far too awkward, and "like" simply doesn't cut it. I've have changed the other line though, to something like "...so that I can respond to that passion", with the accompanying images keeping it ambiguous). But as you've observed, the important thing to realise is that it's being linked to Chihaya's love for karuta.

Though leaving aside Taichi, I disagree that her feelings for Kana and Daddybear would amount to the same kind of 'love'. Whatever it is that Chihaya is feeling at this point (which she doesn't understand, anyway), neither English nor Japanese have different words for romantic vs. other kinds of 'love'. Greek arguably does though: perhaps what Chihaya has expressed here is more akin to agape at present.

This is exactly what I wanted to say after reading Enzo's post, and you did better than I ever could have. Great post. "Love" is really the best translation in English, because there is no way we can say Chihaya only "likes" karuta. No, it's clear she loves it. As does she love Arata. It's important to note that the use of "love" doesn't automatically imply romantic feelings. You can love your friends, too. The ambiguity present in the Japanese text is still there. The meaning of the sentence remains the same. It's neither a confirmation nor a refutation that Chihaya loves Arata romantically, it's only supposed to tell us that Arata is very precious to her and that she hasn't sorted out her feelings yet (she puts Karuta and Arata in the same bag, so to speak), whatever they might be. It doesn't indicates whether she loves him as a lover or as a friend. That's all we can take away from this.

I think Chihaya's poems expressed her true feelings better and are more relevant than this one line. Kana, who is well-versed in poetry, read them and she KNEW. The only reason Chihaya is "confused" is that she's completely clueless when it comes to romance. However, as Kana said, this won't last forever. That's why she urged Taichi to try harder. If he doesn't take action, he will lose.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by karice67

That’s why Arata’s parents are panicking about the ~$40,000 that Arata’s first year in Tokyo would cost them. It’s still a significant achievement for Arata, because otherwise, he’d have to focus on studying for exams and not have any time for karuta and the Meijin title.

His mother's comment about how much she fears being stuck just with his father at home had me rolling on the floor despite being as cruel as it was. I guess the empty-nest problem happens in Japan just as much as here.

[articuzwolf]

But being the best wingman doesnt means the best in understanding target's feeling
And Kana-Chan obviously rooting for his president compared to random stranger from Fukui that she barely knew

[Dop]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

For me, the most memorable scenes of the episode involved Kanade's reaction to reading Chihaya's poems. It's a great construct, starting with the beautiful notion that verbally clumsy and inarticulate Chihaya finds her true voice in poetry. Then there's Kana-chan's beautiful, sensitive, kind soul - she's known the truth of Taichi's feelings for Chihaya forever and suspected his time was running out, and no one wants to see the two of them together more than she does. I choked up a bit when she stopped dead on the sidewalk and pounded him on the back, over and over, than exhorted him to act before it was too late. What a profound act of love and friendship on her part.

Absolutely, that was just a wonderful scene and I had pretty much the same reaction there.

If we must wait
For o'er a long year
Surely one day
A third season will come
To bring joy.

Ok, so I'm a lousy poet and I should never do that again, but I do so hope we get a third season, although I gather there'll be a long wait.
Chihayafuru has been one of my absolutely favourite shows of the last few years, and one I dearly want to see continue.

[Bern-san]

Good way to end an irregular season, it still was quite good but I didn't like that most of the season focused on the team tournaments with silly scenes like Megu's fanboys even though parts like Taichi's match or Mizusawa's match passed so quickly. Based on previous posts I suppose it's more of the manga's fault if it was faithful.

Arata was incredibly cute when he said that he remembers that place while playing karuta. Still I'm a bit sad that Taichi was forgotten since he also played during those times but oh well it's not bad having some Arata-Chihaya scenes.
I think one of the things they have in common is that they look like they underestimate Taichi although I guess it's normal for them considering they're monsters while Taichi just managed to be on A-class.

I don't see the problem with the use of "love" during that phrase Chihaya said. It was never meant to be interpreted romantically, the series has stated multiple times that Chihaya is oblivious about that stuff and considering that to her Arata is her karuta god...

About Kana not taking into account Chihaya's feeling for Arata (whatever they are those feelings), it's not like she's a bad friend. At the end of the day if Chihaya were to chose him over Taichi I don't think she would oppose to it but she has seen how much Taichi loves Chihaya that she can't help but root for him. She wants Taichi to take the chances while he has time, otherwise he would regret it.

Count me in the list of people who aren't sure if wait for the 3rd season or read the manga...