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View Poll Results: Angel Beats! - Episode 7 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 64 | 39.26% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 48 | 29.45% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 24 | 14.72% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 17 | 10.43% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 7 | 4.29% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 2 | 1.23% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 1 | 0.61% | |
Voters: 163. You may not vote on this poll |
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2010-05-17, 09:51 | Link #201 |
ショ ン (^^)
IT Support
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Otonashi's face when Naoi was trying to give her encouragement had me laughing so hard i had to pause the episode. Sometimes words dont need to be said a look is enough and god was it funny.
Kanade found a new way to use dual handsonics. She could be one hell of a sushi chef. Will reserve judgement on Evil Tenshi for now. I felt terrible for Otonashi. To live majority of your life not caring about anything and not having any direction except for your sister who was then taken from you. But then to finally find it, work towards it get a taste of it and its all ripped away from you because of an accident. I dont think i could handle having all those memories flood back to me. The pain would be unbearable. good episode 9/10
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2010-05-17, 12:25 | Link #202 | |
On a mission
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I give the show tons of shit, but there's gotta be some balance and less overreacting. I give them a break this time.
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2010-05-17, 14:36 | Link #203 | ||||||
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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As for 'why' he joined, the only clue that connects Naoi's admiration with his joining of the SSS was... "You were clinging onto Otonashi and crying like a baby." (note this wasn't shown at all last episode, as it was Otonashi who was doing the clinging and crying) If that wasn't exposition/summarization/description, I don't know what is. Just because it was a character doing so, rather than a narrator, does not make it any less 'telling'. That's actually a cheap trick to try and disguise 'telling' as 'showing', by making one of the characters do the actual narration itelf. (One I was guilty of back during my writing classes, and the teacher called me up on it. ) Seriously, if they even showed that scene rather than cutting the previous episode just before that part, I wouldn't have this problem, as Naoi's reciprocation of Otonashi's crying/clinging would've been a big enough clue to foreshadow his joining. But for God knows what reason, they decided not to show it, instead panning up to the sky before ending the episode. Really, you're focusing on the wrong parts of the definition from wikipedia. The key words here are "allows the reader to experience the story"; the actual method done to do so (or fail to do so) has little relevance, though to be fair they're by far the most common ways to 'show/tell'. And no, we certainly did NOT experience Naoi's joining scene. Not by a long shot. Quote:
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"Seriously now, Otonashi accepting Naoi can be the cause of a bajillion different things." To expand on this, since Otonashi accepting Naoi can be the cause of many different things, to assume that "Otonashi's acceptance suggests that Naoi is going to become his bitch" would be foolhardy indeed, when its just one of many possibilities at that point in time (during Otonashi's acceptance). Logically speaking... B was caused by A, but B is just one of many results of A. (To put it succinctly, A can cause B, C, D, etc. to happen as well) Now A. From this, the only thing we can logically conclude is that B might happen. That said, assuming "A suggests B is going to happen" is illogical, when A could as easily suggest C, D, etc. Replace A with 'Otonashi's acceptance' and B with 'Naoi's joining', C/D/etc. with the examples I listed in the next paragraph. Hopefully this makes more sense. In other words, Otonashi's acceptance could NOT have suggested that the next thing going to happen would be Naoi's joining, because it could have as easily suggested that Naoi might quit student council, might just call a ceasefire, or even outright disappear, among MANY other things. Quote:
In other words, Naoi's admiration of Otonashi (and his joining by extension) was NOT suggested to be the most probable path of the story, out of all the other many (if not infinite) paths Otonashi's acceptance can cause. That is why I said Naoi's admiration came out of left field. Please, don't misconstrue my arguement. I've had enough strawman to last me a lifetime with my many shipping debates over the last decade. Quote:
From this we can deduce (not experience) that his reason for joining the SSS is because of his admiration of Otonashi (in conjunction with Hinata's quote that connects the two), and that since he isn't at war the SSS, we can deduce (not experience) that he reconciled with them. In other words, we were 'told' through implications that he joined the SSS and the reason why, rather than them actually 'showing' the scene in question. Quote:
As such, it boggles the mind why they did not show Naoi's joining, while they did of Tenshi who was at better 'diplomatic relations' with them at the end of eps 6.
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2010-05-17, 16:14 | Link #205 | |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Anyway, just because the alternative is worse doesn't the mean the current isn't bad, nor is it much consolation. The lesser of two evils is still evil.
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2010-05-17, 16:56 | Link #207 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
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2010-05-17, 18:01 | Link #208 |
Student/Lurker
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Age: 35
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Otonashi really surprised me with his story at first. I always thought of him as an intelligent character, and he is, but it was pretty obvious that he lived a dissatisfied existence before starting to get serious about his studies in his previous life. So, I guess his goal was to become a doctor? That's a pretty admirable goal, and he would have been great if not for the incident.
Although transitions could be better, this is a good show. |
2010-05-17, 23:25 | Link #209 | |||||
less qq; more pewpew
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philippines
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Alright, I will try my best to avoid that then. Quote:
Also, check these out: Quote:
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given:Pr(B) = Pr(B|A)Pr(A) ; Pr(C) = Pr(C|A)Pr(A) ; Pr(D) = Pr(D|A)Pr(A) ; Pr(E) = Pr(E|A)Pr(A) ; Pr(F) = Pr(F|A)Pr(A) Pr(B|A) = Pr(C|A) = Pr(D|A) = Pr(E|A) = Pr(F|A) = kThrough substitution: Pr(B) = kPr(A) Pr(C) = kPr(A) Pr(D) = kPr(A) Pr(E) = kPr(A) Pr(F) = kPr(A) Therefore, Pr(B) = Pr(C) = Pr(D) = Pr(E) = Pr(F). I did not give priority over the event that got chosen by the show. All I'm saying is that all the other possible events you have given have (assuming) an equal chance of being selected, so the event chosen by the show itself should not be belittled in any way. Thus, why not [join the SSS]? Just because you didn't like the way the event was handled doesn't mean that it is any less valid. Quote:
Instead of stating a situation flat out, you want to let the reader discover what you're trying to say by watching a character in action and by listening to his dialogue. Showing brings your characters to life. It is the difference between actors acting out an event, and the lone playwright standing on a bare stage recounting the event to the audience.However, since I don't consider myself an expert or even a sound authority on how this should be interpreted, let's have it your way. Quote:
Ceasefire, yes, but Kanade was never allied with the SSS. She's comparable to the police in a gang war. When the mob isn't doing any damage to public property, stirring up the civilians, or simply breaking school rules, there's no need to oppress them. That is the role of the SCP, and most likely, this is one of the reasons why Naoi's assimilation wasn't met with much resistance by the newer members (who hadn't experienced the early days of Yuri's rebellion). And once again, have you read the prequel novel?
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2010-05-17, 23:40 | Link #210 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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To say the truth, the presence of the evil twin Tenshi has kinda put me off the show. I dont really know why, maybe its ruined the atmosphere for me. But I get the next episode will tell me if I've lost hope or not in this series. Because it better not be something lame and have good reason.
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2010-05-18, 02:42 | Link #211 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
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2010-05-18, 11:33 | Link #212 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 38
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2010-05-18, 11:36 | Link #213 | ||||||
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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(BTW, that's another thing that bugged me. Why the heck did they have to stop halfway and only show his crying? Is it because they wanted to put a cliffhanger at the end of episode 6 in where the writers are trying to make the audience guess whether Naoi disappeared or not, or whatever else? I dunno, but they certainly had quite a number of chances to do things properly, but squandered all of them for some reason or another.) And that's not going to the part that Naoi was NOT crying like a baby, like Hinata claimed. Maybe even Naoi wailing alone would've satisfied me, as that would've shown 'utter devastation' of his inner self by Otonashi's words, but they had to stop halfway, yet again. Quote:
The scene itself is not even directly connected to Naoi's joining at all; you have to connect 'Naoi/Otonashi having good relations with each other in comparison with the rest of the cast' with Hinata's observation that Naoi's 'clinging to Otonashi and crying like a baby' to deduce this is the reason he joined. Still does not change we did not experience the joining scene, however. To put it in simpler terms (and hopefully put this part of arguement to rest on whether Naoi's joining was shown or told), in the TV/Movie mediums, 'showing' a scene is literally just that; if the scene is acted out 'onscreen', then it is 'shown' because it allows the viewer to 'experience' said scene. As such, anything that's done 'offscreen', implied, narrated, discussed, or otherwise, is 'telling' because the audience did not experience it. And as we all know, they did not animate Naoi's joining. Sure, they have given good reasons as to why he joined after the fact, but that's merely just telling us the reasons why he did so. We did not experience said scene at all. Quote:
What I have major beef with is how they did it (ie. not 'showing' us Naoi joining the SSS, when they had time to with Tenshi). See, I'm no hard ass when it comes to writing, but Naoi's joining was not even properly foreshadowed/suggested, because the only thing that even remotely suggested Naoi's joining would be Otonashi's acceptance of him. And as you have also stated, Otonashi's acceptance can be the cause of many different things, so as such, you can't take it as proper foreshadowing of the events in eps 7. Remember, our debate started partly because of my quote that stated "This admiration of Otonashi ALSO came out of left field". The only reason why I brought up 'Otonashi accepting him does not suggest Naoi's admiration/joining' is merely me trying to preemptively quash the only thing that can be even remotely considered as foreshadowing, before anyone can put it forward as 'proof'. Quote:
Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, because for example even the mystery genre has them 'telling' certain non-critical scenes that happened in the past through numerous clues. But what separates non-critical scenes with critical ones? There's no general consensus among the writers, but if you ask 10 random writers whether a complete 180 would be critical or not, concerning a character who has a big impact in the plot , I'm damn sure all 10 would say its a critical moment. Quote:
In Hinata's case, him saying "You still on about that? You were clinging onto Otonashi and crying like a baby" was 'showing' that Hinata can now hold a conversation with Naoi, that he treats Naoi as more or less an equal, and that he has no qualms about teasing Naoi. At the same time, however, he without a doubt 'told' what happened concerning Naoi's joining. Quote:
Now tell me, using this... War --> Ceasefire --> Alliance --> Joining ...who has a bigger jump? Naoi starting at war, or Tenshi at ceasefire? Of course Naoi. It doesn't matter if Tenshi took a bajillion years to go from War --> Ceasefire... what matters is that exactly at the end of episode 6, Tenshi was already at the very least at Ceasefire. Which of course means that she was already one step closer to 'Joining' than Naoi was at that point in time. So again, why did they 'show' the one that took the smaller leap but only 'told' the larger one? One reason I can think of is that they just wanted more 'moe moe moments' from Tenshi. Which as a shipper, I couldn't be happier about if it was true. But as a critic, I have to call on them disrupting the flow of the story. As for Ceasefire vs Alliance part, note that Tenshi was already helping the SSS fight Naoi. In other words, the writers have shown us through certain scenes that... 1) Yuri is willing to let go of past grudges and ask help from a very long-time enemy 2) Tenshi is not doing this because its her duty as student council president, as she is NOT one at that time 3) Tenshi bears no ill will towards SSS ...and from what what was shown there, we can deduce the fact that Tenshi WANTED to help the SSS from the goodness of her own heart. As such, since Tenshi wasn't fighting Naoi out of obligation, and Yuri was the one who asked (begged? Yuri sounded AWFULLY desperate for Tenshi's help over the walkie talkie) Tenshi for her help, then one can only conclude that the two made an alliance to fight against a common enemy. Namely, Naoi. Which of course would put Tenshi TWO steps closer to joining than Naoi. So I ask again, why did they not have the time to 'show' Tenshi's joining but not Naoi's, when there have been a crapload of foreshadowing for the former but none for the latter?
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2010-05-18, 11:46 | Link #214 | |
Explodes when thrown
IT Support
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 37
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It seems to me that you're confusing your feelings as an audience member with the SSS's feelings. We like Tenshi/Kanade, as she's been portrayed as sympathetic. But the SSS, particularly those who've been on the front lines, have long-since hated and feared her and her power. There's also the question of character importance. Who was a more important recruit, Tenshi or Naoi? The more important one is going to have more of a scene involved, and feel significant. While the other's joining, as it was mentioned above, was played for laughs.
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2010-05-18, 11:50 | Link #215 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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However, while it may be true for us, it is another way around. "Tenshi" was considered as an automaton entity in the eyes of the SSS members. As such "anyone who is disturbing the order shall be dealt". Now, there is some way to deal with it... see where I'm trying to say? As it is perhaps easy to notice that Kanade helped them, because of Yuzuru, it isn't easy for the SSS. That is befause, in such situation, a change of priority can be issued. The fact SSS are being beaten up, then saved isn't the point. The fact Ayato was just beating the shit out of people was the problem. For the SSS, who aren't aware of Kanade's "humanity", there is no evidence that Kanade "helped" them. To the contrary: there is nothing to prevent them to think that Yuzuru could convince her, just because of Ayato's rash methods. When you have a 3 way battle royal, it is always better to take out the thoughest opponent first. And this way of thinking is not far fetched at all. At THAT given time, Ayato wasn't suppressing a rebellion or an act of disorder. He was basically one sidedly taking them out. Therefore, there is no evidence for the SSS to believe that Kanade was helping "them". Otherwise, they wouldn't consider her as an enemy back in this episode, which was proved otherwise. Furthermore, again, you are mistaking your point of view with the characaters'. The conflict with "Tenshi" lasted much longer than with Ayato. And again, evidences of Ayato's "humanity" were much easier to spot for them, than Kanade's. Again, this is another reason why I and other members stated previously that "Kanade being more easier to see them join" is not really applicable at this point of the plot. Although there is room for debate regarding how Ayato's recruitment was handled, the fact they favored Kanade's development for this event is a better choice so to speak.
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2010-05-18, 13:25 | Link #216 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
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2010-05-19, 00:19 | Link #217 |
Senior and Demented
Join Date: May 2006
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I've been lurking and following these threads from the first ep and now you guys have gone and actually made me post! GRRRRRRRR!!!
Nobody seems to realize the single most important reason why the show's writers allotted so much time to us experiencing Tenshi/Kanade's incorporation into the group and skipped over pretty boy president. In short: Tenshi/Kanade is super moé! Seriously. Wake up. This is a cute girl show. The plot is designed to make you feel all gushy over the tragic plights of cute girls. Of course we're gonna spend time on the tragical social rejection of the cutest, saddest girl in the show! Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way! Honestly, there's more than enough shown for plenty of hero/prez dojin. If I wanted any more innuendo I'd go rewatch Baka to Test... again.
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2010-05-19, 04:07 | Link #218 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Philippines
Age: 36
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Hmmm...good to see such a lively thread I for one found it quite interesting the differences between Otonashi's efforts in getting closer to Tachibana compared to the other characters. Especially in this episode where he offered to be called by his first name to tenshi and she in return to Otonashi. Considering that this episode revealed his past, perhaps Otonashi was projecting his love for his sister to the imouto-esque tenshi. Then again, maybe I'm reading too much into it since how tenshi reminds me Suou, especially that they share the same V.A.
Yurippe's indifference when the SSS brigade were helping Tachibana was kind of ominous. Maybe the new tenshi was a fake that Yurippe made (out of mud?) seeing that their tangible source of conflict, Tachibana stopped being a threat, moreover being the same just as them. |
2010-05-19, 05:02 | Link #219 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: My Desk
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Except that the show is borderline shounen, and the fan pandering material displayed is enough to make 1000 doujins.
It seems the main problem is everyone is having a hard time accepting the intended POV of the show, the balant supernatural aspect doesn't seem to be kicking in with most of the viewers here. The characters are Undead immortals not your average run of the mill kids with problems. Episode 1 of Angel beats was not THE episode 1. When Otonashi first appeared he was dragged into a war that was already in it's 100 year stage. Yuri already mentioned they have fought and defeated numerous "Tenshi" along with losing countless comrades in the process. Obviously a conflict of moral direction and the idiots who thought that they should follow the "righteous path" The Tenshi were slowly wiped out because they could no longer sustain their existence on the plane ironically intended to calm the soul. While the rebellion continued onward The Audience POV: This base assumes that they can rationalize what is happening because it looks like a normal environment. Like Klashkari said that overly dramatic rainy day where everyone got brutally slaughtered might have been an AVERAGE DAILY ACCORDANCE TO THEM IN THE TENSHI WAR. To them Naoi who is easily swayable is war more safer Than the cold Kanade who've they been fighting for god knows how long and "somehow" has the ability permanently remove them. The Characters POV: What may be 2 minutes to you is actually 5 months to them. In the end what im trying to say is that this discussion is fruitless, what may be shocking behavior to you is nothing to someone who can survive multiple gunshot wounds to the head.
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Last edited by Crontica; 2010-05-19 at 05:18. |
2010-05-19, 08:57 | Link #220 | |
crap translator
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Otherwise I agree with you on the other parts. |
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