2011-12-13, 14:46 | Link #26282 |
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That's going to depend in a lot of ways on how you approach the foundations of moral philosophy, what you think morality is, and how you think people come to understand and adopt it. Some people might think so, certainly.
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2011-12-13, 14:52 | Link #26284 | ||
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Many animals kills others in order to survive Many humans kills others in order to survive However For a human to kill another, is amoral The gold I used is accepted by most people and thus is "very strong", to the point it can be stronger then the red in some case. Quote:
Edit: Generally speaking isn't that what the world is tho? You can never be certain of anything but you have to accept some things as close to that or else you're just in endless doubt. The kind of red that we can gather in our world is the kind that not everyone accepts as red anyway. Religion would have a hard time existing without that. Conclusion based on "red" is also the most a human being who decides to seriously tackle on a problem can achieve. Conclusions does not exist in "red". To go in a Umineko like logic, I'm proposing that the accident theory is the most logical conclusion that the authorities could come up with considering the "red" they managed to get. However since the witch-hunters weren't there to investigate themselves, they'd rather trust things like the forgeries then that. |
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2011-12-13, 15:18 | Link #26286 | |
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I think I get what you mean but that should only apply to resident of "that world".
When it concerns our relation as readers to Umineko, I do think it's Ryuukishi's goal to make us accept the "gold" we want, rather then him having to tell us "the one interpretation". Quote:
Because when I think of arc 7 and Rokkenjima prime, what comes to mind instantly is that Will said something like "who knows" concerning it. The one model detective to us. |
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2011-12-13, 15:37 | Link #26287 |
The True Culprit
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The problem with making up the Gold Truth is that two times out of three it's used to speak something that is demonstrably, factually not true, and the way Will talks about it, he seems to treat Gold Truth and Illusions as effectively synonymous.
Based purely off what the text gives us, "Make your own Gold Truth" basically means "Lie to yourself." Renall and I are both morally opposed to that because it HURTS PEOPLE. If you're walking on the train tracks and you plug your ears so that you don't hear a train coming, IT'S STILL COMING. If a priest murders his wife and you insist that the police are wrong, it doesn't change the fact that he murdered his wife. If your mother beats and abuses you and abandons you for weeks at a time, pretending she's possessed by a witch isn't going to change what your mother does to you. The only way to fix a problem is to face the Truth of that problem, and the only way to deal with the past in a way that will prevent the past from reoccuring is to face the Truth of that past. The people in the world of Umineko are being taught a lesson that if you commit a mass murder, YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH IT and no one will blame you if you do it right. And Ryukishi is treating it as undesirable or even WRONG to even try and find out. Those who don't learn from it will be run over by a train just like the last guy. Those who don't cope with it give the priest a chance to murder again. Those who don't deal with the problem of an abusive parent will continue to be abused. Gold Truth is fucking worthless and it hurts people.
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2011-12-13, 15:39 | Link #26288 | ||
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It's a judgment call, to be made by those who have the power and thus the responsibility to make it. Quote:
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2011-12-13, 15:45 | Link #26289 | ||
The True Culprit
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2011-12-13, 15:50 | Link #26290 | |
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What you call Gold, is basically what I think nearly all blue are.
Beside if you read what I've said in earlier posts you'll realize what I'm saying is pretty much what you say. The cops said it was an accident, witch-hunters believes it was murder. Think that was Gold? Nah it was Blue. I'm not going to repeat the arguments I said concerning this tho. Quote:
Even if you attain "the right truth", you need to have an objective way to double check it, which you can only do with objective truth. But since from the starting point you are not given any such objective truth to compare it with (reality is not a quiz question with the answers written on the back), truth does not have an absolute value. At least not for humans. And there has been cases where the ones who used a proper means to seek a truth ended up having a "more wrong truth" then the ones who didn't. Religion claimed the "universe began at point x" while scientists for a while claimed the universe had no beginning. Then the big bang theory appeared and became accepted, ironically giving a point to the religious notion of beginning of the universe. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-12-13 at 16:01. |
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2011-12-13, 15:57 | Link #26291 | |||
The True Culprit
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2011-12-13, 15:57 | Link #26292 | ||
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The thing is, you're just assuming that there exist the right people to make judgment calls like this, that the people who are making the calls are those people, and that they're making the call correctly. If there exists a character in the Uminekoverse with the proper authority and intellect to make that decision, I do not believe they were given that authority. I certainly don't trust the characters who did decide to take on that role. And I don't believe they made the correct decision with respect to it. Given this, it would appear that such a system is probably unworkable. Ergo, we should publish the information, as we lack the actor, the authority, and the rationale to withhold it. To say that anyone who happens to be in a position of responsibility, regardless of character or motivation, has the right or duty to censor information treads the path of paternalistic absolutism. Quote:
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2011-12-13, 16:04 | Link #26293 | |
Goat
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2011-12-13, 16:05 | Link #26294 | |
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Please do make me say things I am not saying. I made the point about how truth works, I didn't draw any conclusions from it in the post I said and if you read my earlier ones you'd understand the conclusion I reach from it. The conclusion that without objective absolute truth "so fuck it" is one you just made yourself from the point I did, I didn't do such a thing. |
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2011-12-13, 16:10 | Link #26295 | |||
The True Culprit
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But if you're going to be a butt, then nothing is intrinsic because the universe has no intrinsic value to anything in human experience and blah blah blah moral relativism why bother. This position isn't useful. Quote:
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2011-12-13, 16:13 | Link #26296 |
別にいいけど
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Knowledge.
By definition knowledge is the knowledge of what is true. If it's knowledge of false, then it's "false knowledge". The value of truth is the same value of knowledge. And noone should despute the value of knowledge. Knowledge is power. By depriving someone of the truth, and by extenstion the knowledge of that truth, you deprive them of power. Depriving someone of power is inherently evil unless you have a reason to think that someone is going to use that power for evil ends, or unless you're doing it to reestablish equity.
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2011-12-13, 16:17 | Link #26297 | ||
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I am saying that truth is not absolute, thus this is why even tho the people who used objective means to deduce what happened on Rokkenjima concluded it was only an accident, some people still can work around it and endlessly make murder theories around it. It's not "fuck it at all", it's accepting that there is no withheld truth, that the accident theory is what the people who don't draw into conspiracy theory nonsense concluded long ago, and that it's the most likely answer considering I have to doubt the results of the ones who has the most objective means to find "some truth". From my view, by not accepting that you are the ones using the uncertainty of truth to make these theories. And atop of it, you believe that there is some information that would make that debate reach an absolute conclusive truth that no one could deny or reject. Obviously, as in this is a story, Ryuukishi could do such a thing, but that wouldn't be realistic logic at all. When cops says an accidental explosion killed a bunch of people, do you tend to doubt them? I do not, even if it's not certain, it's a lot more certain then internet gossip from the same kind of people who believe in 2012 nonsense and conspiracy theories, which is what I present the witch-hunters to be. Quote:
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2011-12-13, 16:20 | Link #26298 |
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By that logic then money has no intrinsci value either. And that's correct in a way. But who cares? If you dig down enough you'll end up realizing that nothing has an intrinsic value. So who cares about anything?
That's not an healthy approach to life. Things have the value that people attach to them. That is however nothing to belittle.
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2011-12-13, 16:22 | Link #26299 | ||||
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2011-12-13, 16:25 | Link #26300 |
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Can someone sum up to me what this talk is about? It's sounding like some people are actually defending the concealment of truth because ''Your average person is too stupid to have it'' or ''Anyone who wants to learn the truth is an asshole only out to hurt the ones affected by the incident'', or something to that extent.
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