[Manga] Chapter 253 Discussion

[lommm]

Just what I wanted to see.

summary

Spoiler:

Nell is crying a little in Ichigo's arms. Ichigo apologizes to her for not going bankai sooner. Don Kan'Onjie... I mean Dordonie (sp?) continues to complain about not seeing Ichigo at full strength. Ichigo explains that he was trying to conserve enrgy for the Espada fights later because he is protecting his friends. Dordonie realizes that Ichigo is not a strength gaining maniac, but in fact a kind boy trying to protect his friends. Dordonie continues to attack Nell to force Ichigo to fight at full strength. Ichigo jumps way out of range to protect Nell. Dordonie says that he already knows that Ichigo can go hollow and he wants to fight him in that state. Ichigo puts Nell down and tells her to stay behind him. He shows his hollow mask and Dordonie is impressed by the reiatsu. But before Dordonie can do anything, Hollow Ichigo hits him so fast with one strike (which Dordonie can't even see) that Dordonie is defeated (dead?) instantly. As he falls, he asks, "What happened?" The last shot is Nell hiding and looking a little scared of Ichigo.

expectations of what's to come

Spoiler:

I assume Chad and Ishida will beat their guys just as easily. I wonder if we'll have to watch that or if Kubo will just follow Ichigo and Nell. Can't wait for next week. It's just starting to get good! btw, where did Rukia go? We haven't seen her at all since they split up, have we?

[Zoe]

Renji was in last week's chapter.

[Guido]

What I will want to witness is if Ichigo has been able to extend the maximum time limit which he can keep his Hollow mask on for the upcoming fights.

Spoiler:

The irony to the conclusion for this chapter is that Nell, an Arrancar, is afraid of Ichigo's Hollow mode.

[Illuyankas]

I was worried, after seeing the raw, about Ichigo revealing his Vaizard state to Gin, Tousen and Aizen, but of course they already knew.

Incidentally, where did the blood on EvilDon's fingers come from, Ichigo or Nell? I thought Ichigo until I saw what looked like a cut on Nell's forehead, but the version I saw wasn't very high quality.

Oh, and the line 'little lady' was used to describe Nell, so I think she's a girl, unless someone can show otherwise.

[Wolcik]

so Ichigo in Hollow mode could probably kill off Yami in 5 sec that's what I think unless nr 11 would be stronger than 103
why Ichigo have to use bankai to go hollow? if he could be in hollow all the time and fight super cool, and than go bankai and maybe even use second technique (something else than getsuga tenshou) that'd be awsome... and I thought that Ichigo would learn how to use his hollow side longer now

I hope Chad or Ichigo will have some trouble with their guys or it will be just silly :P - but not in this way: oh no, ur super strong, but w8 I'll do one technique that I kept for someone strong and kill u off before u realise XD

[Lendial]

holy crap, vichigo wasted that poor sucker, in half a shunpo and one cut. the bonding between nell and ichigo hopefuly means she will be around even after the HM arc.

[lommm]

oh, my bad, renji was in last week's chapter... i'll edit my above post now.

how would nell last past the HM arc? they will have to figure out a way of getting her back to the real world, won't they? can hollows just travel back and forth at will?

[hdx514]

Originally Posted by lommm

how would nell last past the HM arc? they will have to figure out a way of getting her back to the real world, won't they? can hollows just travel back and forth at will?

piece of cake. ichigo wastes, i mean purifies her now, and find her later in a jolly good family in S.S.

[Nuu]

i believe they have said that nell is a girl, if i remember correctly they stated that when they introduced the whole gang of the Desert Bros saying that she was cute and needed a big brother and then another big brother.... but it could have been a chapter or 2 after

[Rich]

it's smart for ichigo to go hollow mode for one second so he doesn't waste his reiatsu on a small pawn before getting to the current espada or Aizen. is there any reason why Dord always calls Ichigo Nino?

[Illuyankas]

Doesn't that mean 'boy'? As he called Ichigo boy at the end of every other sentence in this chapter.

[ringez]

yea its the spanish word for boy, tho as ichigo called him old man its well played

[Arti]

What a meaningless fight.

"I wanna see you at full strength."
"No."
"Ok, then..." *attack*
"Fine, I'll go bankai."
"No, that's not full strength." *attack*
"Fine, I'll go hollow." THE END

For a few chapters...we didn't see anything we didn't know before...hollow ichigo fights on a higher level than Grimmjow, how could this scrub hope to stand a chance.

[LoganGrim]

I dont know about the same level as Grimmjow...He was takin Ichigos hollow attacks pretty well and he didnt even draw out his Zanpaktou (which if he did he woulda messed ichigo up when his 11seconds wore off and hed lose his hollow mode.)

On a another note i think Chad is gonna crush his guy, he trained with renjis bankai form..he musta gained alot of spirit power from that training, and his right arm is crazy lookin now.

[hdx514]

Originally Posted by LoganGrim

I dont know about the same level as Grimmjow...He was takin Ichigos hollow attacks pretty well and he didnt even draw out his Zanpaktou (which if he did he woulda messed ichigo up when his 11seconds wore off and hed lose his hollow mode.)

grimmjow drew his zanpakutou the second vaizard ichigo attacked him. he also used it to pin ichigo's hand to the ground after the mask expired. but you're right, there's nothing to suggest that vaizard ichigo fights on a higher level than a released grimmjow with both arms intact.

On a another note i think Chad is gonna crush his guy, he trained with renjis bankai form..he musta gained alot of spirit power from that training, and his right arm is crazy lookin now.

training with bankai renji is pretty much a moot point. bankai renji got easily owned by byakuya's shikai+kidou and was weaker than ichigo's shikai form back in S.S. yes he has improved, but so has everyone else, including the enemy, and there's simply no way in bleachverse he'll be able to catch up with ichigo. his bankai was weaker than ichigo's shikai before, it certainly won't be any stronger than it now. sure chad will defeat his opponent, but only because it is weak, like shunsui's 3rd he wasted back in S.S. that is unless chad could armor up his entire body.

[lommm]

if he did that, would it mean he could shoot blast like el directo from his entire body?

[hdx514]

i would love to see that. i'm sure chad was not even close to using full power when he defeated poor demoura awhile back. his punches should at least be as powerful as espada-level ceros, plus he can fire loads in quick succession. the armor also offers excellent defense. i believe he'll completely overwhelm any privalon espada that rely on physical attacks. that is IF he armors up the entire body, or at least the limbs. right now he totally lacks manoeuvrability and defense. even if his human legs and muscles are of world class athelete standard they aren't shit compared to even ordinary shinigami. the attacks and blocks executable with a single arm is also severely limited. any arrancar with decent speed and a clear head would be able to sleep through his el directos and injure him with little problem, like shunsui did awhile back.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by hdx514

training with bankai renji is pretty much a moot point. bankai renji got easily owned by byakuya's shikai+kidou and was weaker than ichigo's shikai form back in S.S. yes he has improved, but so has everyone else, including the enemy, and there's simply no way in bleachverse he'll be able to catch up with ichigo. his bankai was weaker than ichigo's shikai before, it certainly won't be any stronger than it now. sure chad will defeat his opponent, but only because it is weak, like shunsui's 3rd he wasted back in S.S. that is unless chad could armor up his entire body.

We have no proof that Renji's bankai is weaker then Ichigo's Shikai, we don't even have proof that it is weaker then Ichigo's Bankai ( it is slower though which gives Ichigo a huge atvantage). Chad started as about VC level after about a week of training by himself. He has now had over a month of training with what amounts to a low end captain level shinigami.

Originally Posted by hdx514

even if his human legs and muscles are of world class athelete standard they aren't shit compared to even ordinary shinigami.

He's allready been shown to be as fast or faster then 90% of ordinary shinigami durring the SS arc. It was one of the most experinced captians that he had a hard time against in SS. Also remember Renji's also very fast and they have been training together for over a month.

What we saw of the training showed that he was inproveing his defence blocking Renji's bankai with his lower powered arm. the big question is if he has increased his blast speed or learned any new tricks durring the training as I doubt that he will have improved his speed that much.

[hdx514]

We have no proof that Renji's bankai is weaker then Ichigo's Shikai, we don't even have proof that it is weaker then Ichigo's Bankai (it is slower though which gives Ichigo a huge atvantage).

no we have good proof since both of them went against byakuya. check their respective fights in the manga:
-renji’s bankai got pawned easy by byakuya’s shikai, he didn’t even bleed byakuya. byakuya complimented him because renji was able to touch byakuya with his own blood, i have no idea why that deserves compliment, seeing that my grandma can do that in a fight against bruce lee

-byakuya didn’t go bankai on bankai renji until the very end, and he only used it as a finishing blow to show renji their power gap, it was unnecessary

-ichigo’s shikai injured shikai byakuya, byakuya wasted no time to go bankai on shikai ichigo.

-renji in bankai mode took 1 hit from byakuya’s bankai like a wuss. ichigo in shikai mode on the other hand sustained minor injuries

someone else who agrees with you had argued that byakuya went bankai on shikai ichigo faster than on bankai renji because byakuya looked down on renji, but he took ichigo much more seriously despite him being a human, after witnessing his prowess and knowing he’s being training with yoruichi. IF this is true then the fact that shikai byakuya got injured by shikai ichigo only further proves shikai ichigo’s superiority over bankai renji: an enemy you took more seriously managed to injure you in his shikai mode, while an enemy who you took less seriously failed to do so with bankai.

others believe that shikai ichigo managed to injure byakuya by surprise because byakuya think he’s a mere human and took him LESS seriously then renji. this is supported by byakuya arrogance in ichigo’s fight: he calmly accepted renji’s bankai, but would not believe that ichigo had achieved bankai until zangetsu was touching his throat. IF this is true, there could be only one explanation why someone with a huge ego like byakuya would allow himself to even use bankai to finish a “mere human”: he had no choice. he knew his shikai wasn’t enough to finishi SHIKAI ichigo. by contrast, he didn’t think bankai was necessary in the fight with BANKAI renji

either way ichigo’s shikai > renji’s bankai in S.S. and if you can’t at least accept that ichigo’s bankai is more powerful than renji’s bankai then you’re simply lying to yourself.

He's allready been shown to be as fast or faster then 90% of ordinary shinigami durring the SS arc. It was one of the most experinced captians that he had a hard time against in SS. Also remember Renji's also very fast and they have been training together for over a month.

he wasn’t even able to hit iceringer after the training, and before shunsui in no-kai form slept through his attacks. yammi in no-kai form 1 hit koed him. most of his body besides that arm are human, and there’s a limit to human power. check out his fists fights with hollow before having the arm. don't forget the speed the baron has shown: bankai ichigo does not have enough speed advantage over him to fight while protecting nell.

yes, chad was training with renji and got bankai renji completely exhausted. as i said, chad’s attacks could physically overwhelm a privalon espada, but that doesn’t mean he can’t be defeated easily with more evasive tactics. did shunsui took all his hits? no. did shunsui defeat chad by overpowering him with super punches? no. if renji’s been deliberately NOT avoiding chad’s attacks just so that he could train him then of course he would be exhausted

but yeah, like you said, unlike renji chad’s growth rate is probably only behind ichigo in bleach so I won’t be surprised if he pulls some amazing shit

[billbrown]

People we should know better by now than to compare strength levels of different fights. Kubo has given us inconsistencies time and time again, its basically futile to try and gauge someone's strength based on their duels with others.

That being said, i'd surmise to say a sustained(not 11 seconds) hollow ichigo is slightly below the power of a released grimjaw. Just a feeling, though we don't know for sure.