Strike Witches Fan Creations/Ideas Thread

[asaqe]

Welcome to Strike Witches Fan Creations/Ideas Thread

This thread is a place where you can discuss the already existing characters of Strike Witches, as well as your own Original characters and fan related theory, created by taking the principles known about Strike Witches-verse into consideration.

As most other threads, this is a discussion thread, thus you are expected to comment on other people's creations in case you submit your own character. Do not simply drop by to submit your creation.
Posts that serve only to submit a character without contributing anything to the discussion will be deleted. If you happen to come across such posts, feel free to use the Report button , so we can keep the discussion going.
Discussion means that people will disagree with you. Try to listen to them before ignoring them for trying to ‘kill your darlings’

Remember: when creating a character it is important to give as much specific information as you can come up with. This will keep things more interesting for every one. Some basic things are:

Character's name
Gender
Looks (Hair style, color/eyes/physical profile/etc...)
Alignment (good/evil/chaotic/lawful etc...)
Personality
Powers (Passive/Active Abilities of a Witch/Wizard)
Background (What hole did he/she crawl out of)
Anything else you can think of

Please avoid DBZ-like characters. Unstoppable gods with enough power to blow up a planet by accidentally sneezing doesn't make for a very interesting discussion, and is not faithful to Nanoha-verse Try to have the character as realistic as possible in term of ability and magic usage (example: she might get easily tired after casting a powerful area-affect spell). If possible, try not posting too many characters in one post.

How detailed you describe everything is up to you, but the more details - the more things to discuss.
Have fun!

Original thread starter posted by Moderator Skyfall. All rights reserved.

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Men do have a tendency to use power in most idiotic ways.

Perhaps OR perhaps it's part of there master plan to do... something or other. I'm sure whatever it is will be awesome though!

Scrin were barely more then a crashed ship back then though. But yes, this does seem to be a case of extreme coincidence rather then inspiration.

I don't know I think the hints that we where in for some nasty off world visitors was pretty clear and I also think that the concept of the Scrin was probably reasaonbly fleshed out in the minds of the writers by that point. You can't really foreshadow wihtout having some idea WHAT your foreshadowing. If Tiberian Sun hadn't sucked so bad I bet we'd have seen a follow on signifcantly sooner with a similiar plot to what we got in the end.

Well, at least anime Neuroi have rate of fire going for them. They're like flying Obelisks on speed.

Well sometimes they fire fast and then other times they seem to fire a burst and then just sit there sucking down bullets for awhile... Though I should mention that in my own visions of the Scrin I’ve taken some efforts to make them more formidable since they’re freed of the need to be balanced in game. In particular their heavier air force has gotten much more deadly as there battleships mounted plenty of anti-air weapons and were basically immune to anything short of a veritable storm of missiles due to there bulk and shielding. (At least before the SGC worked out how to modify their shield modulators to defeat said shields… The Scrin got a nasty surprise when they tried to invade the Japanese blue zone.)

That may explain why they're trying to kill all the humans. They burned down all of the brewhouses before they realized what was where, and now they're pissed they no longer have beer and decide to wipe us out to ease their frustration and just so they have something to do.

Or they're killing all the humans that know how to make beer in order to then set up there own breweries and corner the interstellar market! The bastards it's worse then we thought!

But at least they're done by the same team, which give some form of coherency.

I'd kind of hope the guys doing all these SW are talking to each other... but I'll admit sometimes it doesn't seem like they really are.

Originally Posted by Kha

Tanks for Wizard units is good since from prelim work, the more weapons and armor you mount, the better he looks!

More isn't better ask any infantry men on the planet this. The goal should be the lightest load possible for the mission not the most shit your probably never use possible and the highest costs you can manage.

One problem though, flying tanks? Or would they be ground to air assault platforms?

Given the weight you guys seem to be piling on they better be rolling; because they ain't gonna be flying.

So far I had 2 aircraft based designs, firstly an A-10 Warthog with hand-carried G-8 gatling

LOL do you know the SIZE of that cannon?! It's as big as a CAR.

Spoiler for A little sense of scale...:

You're gonna carry THAT, in your HANDS? Did you know the RECOIL from a Gau-8 also slows down an A-10 flying at over 300 mph and loaded up to 30,000 pounds when it fires? Hell a single SHELL is as big as your forearm!

Spoiler for More scale:

A Gau will eat 66 of those A SECOND.

and ability to summon a storm of missiles

This is just totally unsupported.

and secondly a mass of weaponry inspired by a C-130 Spectre with hip mounted 120mm cannon, 80mm mass driver and shoulder-mounted twinlinked 10mm autocannons. my problems with these designs is that:

It's fucking insane.

There's basically no way the AC-130 concept could possibly ever work with a Striker it's just not possible. The entire idea of the AC-130 is a heavily gunned aircraft that carries allot of shells for long duration fire support. A striker will NEVER be able to carry out that mission period as it simply lacks the load carrying capacity to support both the guns and there ammo supply. The ammo for the 105mm (nevermind a 120mm!) alone disregarding the gun weighs almost two tons (and is stored in a rack bigger then a person) and the cannon itself adds another ton and half and the recoil forces would send any human spinning about there axis like a top. The 40mm next to it is nearly as bad and the 25mm mini-gun is feed from a drum that holds several thousand rounds and is again the size of a person.

C130: A backpack?

That would be one hell of a back-pack would probably weigh as much as an entire world war two fighter!

Both little bits don't belong in Strike Witches I think...

Understatement of the century!

Now you start too see my main issue with the idea of more “modern” strikers. Namely the weapons are too damn huge to wield effectively. A “light” air to air missile is 10 feet long and weighs 200 pounds for instance. Smaller weapons systems like MANPADs and such will not provide the range or power needed. A striker is unlikely to be faster then later jets either IMO (the lack of large propellers being their main aerodynamic edge IMO in the current time) which puts them in a situation where they have vastly inferior range and no speed advantage which would render them incapable of contesting the air against a modern air force. They might be able to loiter longer, but even that likely goes away once one brings in tankers.

Hence why I’d have advocated a shift down into a close support/helicopter role in that area they would still have the firepower to compete and would probably be faster as well. For some idea how that could work look up how Kiowa’s are fighting in Iraq. (Up to and including them pushing open the aircrafts doors and firing at the enemy with carbines!) There durability is worth more here as well since the main threat down low is small arms fire which they’re reasonably proof against.

Originally Posted by kct

As far from what the novels tell, tank Neurois do exist.

A-10: We can replace the missiles with a man-portable launcher, something like the Javelin system.

The Jav has a range of maybe 2500 meters on a good day firing from the air might extend that somewhat though it's rather unlikely it would extend it ten times to the 25,000 meter range of a Maverick! The Jav is also potent, but can be blunted by modern tank armor if it hits the thicker parts. A maverick is basically instant death to anything rolling of course to be that it's WARHEAD weighs more then the entire missile out of an Javelin!

The issues should be becoming clear by now during world war two many aircraft weapons where vaugely comprable to the heaviest infnatry arms, but that stopped being the case very quickly following the second world war.

AC-130: They doesn't need to be placed into one single backpack, although they need to be cut down in a sense (to 1 x M61, 1 x Bofors, 1 x M102).

As noted the entire concept of an AC-130 is just not possible with a man sized platform.

[Kha]

Strike Witches OC Compendium
OC indexes, sorted by Authors

1. Aaron008R's Almaria
2. asaqe's Simon
3. AX
4. Blitz1/2's Xiang Ren
5. kct
6. Keroko
7. Kha
8. Kyral
9. panzerfan's Keitha Park
10. Tk3997's Thomasina McGuire
11. XenahortCharybdis's Road to Afrika: The Independent Witch Brigade, SWOC Version 1.0.1.1 Update

Recommended readings

1. Why Communism died in SW by Tk3997
2. One of Beurling's WINRAR moments by selkirk from the novel.

It would be better if you guys make an index page for me to link to, that way it would be more efficient (and easier on me instead of having to add every new OC you make. )

[NorthernFallout]

Wouldn't that decrease the effectiveness of the weapon to that of a regular (although over-sized) machine gun?
The GAU-8 for example is designed for deployment against armor (to my knowledge). If you decrease it's firepower and RPM, it lose its primary goal and you could just go with a powerful MG instead.

[Kha]

Indeed, it's akin to a man-portable gatling. I kept the fuselage so that people take one look at will go "Oh it's based on the A10" like the other Striker Units of their inspirations.

And I have a sick fascination for that flashy but impractical weapon.

As long as a magically enhanced 7.76mm can do tremendous damage to Neuroi skin like a G-8 against tank plate, it'll serve its purpose.

And I agree with Tk on the witches being future close-in support fighters. It will also add life to the A10 chassis I'm making, since it's meant to be a heavy support Unit. Fuck that we're using child soldiers.

I'll call it by its older models in the final product, since the A10 is the latest child in the warthog series.

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by Kha

I should've been more specific; the weapons I was thinking was scaled down to the size to fit a boy, so for the A10-basis Striker, if you can imagine the fuselage (chop back 1/3 off, then taper it) being shrunk to about 1.7m in length, then scale the gun down appropiately, that's how it looks like in my sketches.

Is this still the transforming nonsense? If so I still find said thing extremely unlikely.

7.76mm bullets, cartridges stored in hammerspace since I didn't exactly give enough space to support sustained 300rpm fire. Unless this is not acceptable.

It's not: The novels even mention ammunition supplies being an issue. Sorry Kha, but while SW has wiggle room there isn't nearly as much of it as in Nanoha at this time. You're going to have to be considerably more conservative in your ideas. If you're going to make super rapid fire weapon expect to blow your wad fast and end up dry. Welcome to the real world where bigger and faster is not always better.

I also went for larger, more cylindrical and more blunt-ending (as opposed to the girls' tapering) leg units to add "bulk" to the frame to lessen the eye cancer along with shorts. If you can imagine the turbine engines worn like knee-length boots, that's what I'm going for.

That sounds too small honestly also blunt tends not to be a good with with concern to aircraft.

Now to work out the hard points for missiles. :/

You won't. At best you'll be able to have them haul around RPGs and such IMO. Then again a flying Anti-tank missile team would give most tankers fits already and the same could be said of an anti-aircraft missile team for helicopters.

Originally Posted by AtomicoX

Wouldn't that decrease the effectiveness of the weapon to that of a regular (although over-sized) machine gun?
The GAU-8 for example is designed for deployment against armor (to my knowledge). If you decrease it's firepower and RPM, it lose its primary goal and you could just go with a powerful MG instead.

You more or less nailed it here.

Originally Posted by Kha

Indeed, it's akin to a man-portable gatling. I kept the fuselage so that people take one look at will go "Oh it's based on the A10" like the other Striker Units of their inspirations.

Man portable gatlings were considered, but found to be horrid wastes of ammo and vastly overweight and discarded without even seeing service. In an infantry application the gatling offers no real advantage over a high cyclic rate machine gun. In fact even many helicopters have been discarding them for longer range and heavier hitting 12.7mm weapons instead.

And I have a sick fascination for that flashy but impractical weapon.

Which is going to be a serious issue here IMO as Strike Witches frankly has allot less room for such lunacy.

As long as a magically enhanced 7.76mm can do tremendous damage to Neuroi skin like a G-8 against tank plate, it'll serve its purpose.

Cept it won't. The novels quickly had the girls switching too cannons as armor upgrades on Neuroi rendered them nearly immune to rifle caliber weapons. We also have the anime where fire from a Bren gun scatters off a mild steel bulkhead with no real effect. I find it hard to buy a MBT would be LESS resistant then this which means anything rifle caliber will be fucking useless.

And I agree with Tk on the witches being future close-in support fighters. It will also add life to the A10 chassis I'm making, since it's meant to be a heavy support Unit. Fuck that we're using child soldiers.

Child soilders are common as dirt in fiction just look at Nanoha, Halo, and a raft of others.

[kct]

7.76mm? Good luck, some people already have trouble asking the States to drop the 5.56mm of the M16/M4 for ANY OTHER alternatives (like the 6.8mm SPC), just because there is a whole lot of them, not to mention logistics quickly become a major issue (see, logistics is the biggest consideration among any armed forces). Plus, telling those in charge to take up a new ammunition for a select group of people that would not last beyond 10 years in service is never going to work, at least what experiments and military history have told us. Even if the said ammunition hold promise.

You can take a candle from the G11 program that Heckler & Koch did in the 1980s in West Germany. The caseless ammunition have a lot of potential (come on, 45 rounds per magazine in a G11?) and the whole program showed a lot of promise in its day (it was a very ambitious program). HOWEVER...after reunification, guess what? The whole program was dropped, since you just got a reunited nation, and the need to standardize everyone to use similar equipment. The G3, as awesome as the 7.62x51 is, is not going to cut it, and the easiest way to convince the government to adopt a new standard rifle is to have it built around an ammunition that everyone uses (which, of course, end up being the 5.56mm G36) (the only thing within the German armed forces that was not standardized was the MiG-29s of the NVA...even then they were sold to Poland for ONE EURO each, few years back, and the squadrons flying it switched to Eurofighters, at least what I remembered). And, even the States are finding it hard to replace the M16 platform, after almost half a century (more like almost 40 years) it was in service.

Also, on the subject of tank armour. Ever heard stories of the guys in Iraq trying to scuttle their downed Abrams MBTs? Damn thing would not die right away even when it was hit with a shot from another Abrams. If that is bad enough, don't even try to challenge Israeli Merkava Mk IV MBTs, the most likely thing is that the people that would return to their bases at the end of the day is the ones in the Merkava. You can hear the same thing about British Challenger 2s.

I know, some of us here are spoiled by OMG FLASHY LAZER BEAMZZZ and all that (like Nanoha), but in a setting heavily influenced by real-life, we need to tone it down. Hell, I am even considering scrapping the idea of reinstating F-14s into service of the Liberion Navy (in my planned modern SW fic), just because it won't work without a logical explanation, especially since retired military aircrafts in the States seldom get reinstated into active duty. Even then again, one needs to spend a lot of money just to make these guys work (especially their airframes, just to make sure that they can withstand the massive G forces thrown at them). And of course, some people would make an issue out of throwing money into a 30+ year old design, when the same amount of money can be thrown into something like, what else? The JSF.

[Kha]

Please bear with me; I really need a lot of help at this. I'm more familiar with energy weapons than traditional mass ones.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Is this still the transforming nonsense? If so I still find said thing extremely unlikely.

It's not, just scaling down and hand-carried, like some of the art I see. The one Keroko showed me, the one with jet engines, it had the fuselage and a familiar sitting in it.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

It's not: The novels even mention ammunition supplies being an issue. Sorry Kha, but while SW has wiggle room there isn't nearly as much of it as in Nanoha at this time. You're going to have to be considerably more conservative in your ideas. If you're going to make super rapid fire weapon expect to blow your wad fast and end up dry. Welcome to the real world where bigger and faster is not always better.

I'll drop the fire rate and reduce the number of barrels. And add a belt feed from a replaceable drum worn on the waist, so I'm looking at 3k rounds on a single drum.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

That sounds too small honestly also blunt tends not to be a good with with concern to aircraft.

Its rather like a turbine engine, except with the "inlet" facing down, meaning the thrust will be reversed, like the props are in other Striker units.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

You won't. At best you'll be able to have them haul around RPGs and such IMO. Then again a flying Anti-tank missile team would give most tankers fits already and the same could be said of an anti-aircraft missile team for helicopters.

One idea I'm looking at is 2 lateral points on the Striker units that can carry a small sidewinder missile each? They'd be fired off, then the Wizard returns to ship to rearm and fly out again, with his gatling as a close quarter deterant weapon, like why fighters still carry a machine cannon even though missiles are their main arm.

Also, there are humanoid Neuroi that attack in clouds; maybe the gatling's function shall be anti-"personnel"?

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Man portable gatlings were considered, but found to be horrid wastes of ammo and vastly overweight and discarded without even seeing service. In an infantry application the gatling offers no real advantage over a high cyclic rate machine gun. In fact even many helicopters have been discarding them for longer range and heavier hitting 12.7mm weapons instead.

Mass drivers? Sounds ok, just that it ruins the A10 feel.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Cept it won't. The novels quickly had the girls switching too cannons as armor upgrades on Neuroi rendered them nearly immune to rifle caliber weapons. We also have the anime where fire from a Bren gun scatters off a mild steel bulkhead with no real effect. I find it hard to buy a MBT would be LESS resistant then this which means anything rifle caliber will be fucking useless.

Alright, I'll restrict the gatling and rely on the missiles, if they go through.

[selkirk]

Originally Posted by Kha

It's not, just scaling down and hand-carried, like some of the art I see. The one Keroko showed me, the one with jet engines, it had the fuselage and a familiar sitting in it.

I'll drop the fire rate and reduce the number of barrels. And add a belt feed from a replaceable drum worn on the waist, so I'm looking at 3k rounds on a single drum.

There's some scaling down in the material, mostly shortening barrels, but calibers are generally kept the same. If you look at the tank witches, most of their cannon carbines are only about typical rifle length. They most likely use 37-45 mm calibers in general, not any of the heavier weapons though.

Another way they remove weight from the guns is making them bolt action. The 37 mm cannons the Stuka squadron carries are single shot and bolt action, which would probably make the entire gun simpler and lighter. The tank witches shown generally have magazine-fed cannon carbines.

Also, 3000 rounds? Can you imagine anyone carrying that many? The Stuka squadron with 37 mm cannons get 24 rounds each. Witches with machine guns have about 200-250 rounds at most, and usually less.

[kct]

I am going to answer this one-by-one (anything that I can deal with), please don't take offense.

Originally Posted by Kha

It's not, just scaling down and hand-carried, like some of the art I see. The one Keroko showed me, the one with jet engines, it had the fuselage and a familiar sitting in it.

We have no idea if the said method is still employed in the current iteration of Strike Witches.

Originally Posted by Kha

I'll drop the fire rate and reduce the number of barrels. And add a belt feed from a replaceable drum worn on the waist, so I'm looking at 3k rounds on a single drum.

Normal infantry already have trouble carrying ammunition (this was the reason why they switched over to the 5.56x45mm in the first place: ammunition weight). Take the usual 5.56x45mm NATO that everyone is familiar with. One of these weighs about 3.56g, and if you multiply the amount by 100, the ammunition (alone) would have weigh about 356g. And soldiers usually carry about 6 STANAG magazines (6 x 30 = 180 rounds, which is about 640.8g, and this is WITHOUT taking weight of magazines into consideration), or even more. Possibly the closest common-issue ammunition in the West, the hard-hitting 7.62x51mm NATO, to your planned 7.76mm, weighs in about 9.5 per round. And we have not moved to the .50BMG alley yet.

Also, do take note of this: Modern jet fighters carry less than 1000 rounds in their guns, and the A-10 carries ONLY 1100 rounds in their typical combat load. Antique SUU-23 gunpods of the Vietnam times carry about 1200 rounds, but they caused so much trouble with the F-4 Phantom IIs that mount them to the extent that an actual internal gun was the only way to go (which resulted in the F-4E).

Originally Posted by Kha

One idea I'm looking at is 2 lateral points on the Striker units that can carry a small sidewinder missile each? They'd be fired off, then the Wizard returns to ship to rearm and fly out again, with his gatling as a close quarter deterant weapon, like why fighters still carry a machine cannon even though missiles are their main arm.

Spoiler for This picture tells the whole story about the size of a Sidewinder:

Of course, there is always the FIM-92 Stinger, but it works better with a launcher.

Originally Posted by Kha

Mass drivers? Sounds ok, just that it ruins the A10 feel.

A Browning M2 would still hit hard. Although it would do jack against an MBT or anything with heavy armor.

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by selkirk

There's some scaling down in the material, mostly shortening barrels, but calibers are generally kept the same. If you look at the tank witches, most of their cannon carbines are only about typical rifle length. They most likely use 37-45 mm calibers in general, not any of the heavier weapons though.

Caliber isn't really the major issue anyway just consider a 40mm grenade launcher and a 40mm bofors. Some of the anti-tank weapons of today are extremely fat as well (since width is directly related to the effectiveness of a shaped charge). If you really want an idea of relative power look at the LENGTH of the cartridge.

Another way they remove weight from the guns is making them bolt action. The 37 mm cannons the Stuka squadron carries are single shot and bolt action, which would probably make the entire gun simpler and lighter. The tank witches shown generally have magazine-fed cannon carbines.

Would very much help as indeed allot of the weight you run into with heavier auto-cannons is the feeding system the gun and breech itself actually not being a huge part of that.

Although it must be noted that the effectiveness of a single shot cannon in air combat would be dubious (though possible magic guidance on shots might help) though it would be viable for strikes on slower moving ground targets. Then again once you’re at the single shot level recoilless rifles start to look more attractive although muzzle velocity would be lower in most cases.

Also, 3000 rounds? Can you imagine anyone carrying that many? The Stuka squadron with 37 mm cannons get 24 rounds each. Witches with machine guns have about 200-250 rounds at most, and usually less.

That's actually SW being a tad dense IMO you're average machine gunner will haul considerably more then that too a fight up to two or three times as much if he's a bit burly and he's a normal human. He won't be moving much once he's in position though, but then he also doesn't have magically boosted strength.

Still 3000 is probably excessive as in 7.62mm rounds that would weigh on the order of 75 kilos ignoring the belts and the drum. 1,000 I can see though.

Originally Posted by Kha

Please bear with me; I really need a lot of help at this. I'm more familiar with energy weapons than traditional mass ones.

I wouldn’t say your very familiar with how real energy weapons work either.

It's not, just scaling down and hand-carried, like some of the art I see. The one Keroko showed me, the one with jet engines, it had the fuselage and a familiar sitting in it.

Ahh okay yeah nothing wrong with that.

I'll drop the fire rate and reduce the number of barrels. And add a belt feed from a replaceable drum worn on the waist, so I'm looking at 3k rounds on a single drum.

The ammo supply might be a bit extreme more so given the nature and weight of the weapon. Try more like 1k.

Its rather like a turbine engine, except with the "inlet" facing down, meaning the thrust will be reversed, like the props are in other Striker units.

What? There’s no reason for a jet Striker not to be built just like the old ones with the inlet in front and exhausting out the feet. It actually makes more sense now as all jets are in essence “pushers”. Unless I'm just not getting what you're describing.

One idea I'm looking at is 2 lateral points on the Striker units that can carry a small sidewinder missile each? They'd be fired off, then the Wizard returns to ship to rearm and fly out again, with his gatling as a close quarter deterant weapon, like why fighters still carry a machine cannon even though missiles are their main arm.

Kct covered why this wouldn’t work very well. I think your best bet is a hand carried launcher with reloads in a backpack. Maybe SMALL AT rockets could be fitted onto the legs via hardpoints.

Also, there are humanoid Neuroi that attack in clouds; maybe the gatling's function shall be anti-"personnel"?

Spraying bullets into a cloud bank is a piss poor way to try and kill a maneuvering air target…

Mass drivers? Sounds ok, just that it ruins the A10 feel.

True, but just keep the problems with the weapon in question in mind

Alright, I'll restrict the gatling and rely on the missiles, if they go through.

For killing heavy units in a modern setting missles are just a way better option then any sort of cannon is.

Which isn't to say a cannon couldn't work the top armor on an MBT is it's thinnest and a witch would be firing into that armor this is how a Gau-8 can defeat a tank to start with. (it would just bounce off the front or flanks). Thus a heavy single shot cannon might be viable for hunting tanks, but an auto-cannon of the needed power is simply going to be too huge for them to use.

Originally Posted by kct

We have no idea if the said method is still employed in the current iteration of Strike Witches.

Something like it is mentioned in novels IIRC and in any case I personally think it makes sense so I have no issue with it.

Normal infantry already have trouble carrying ammunition (this was the reason why they switched over to the 5.56x45mm in the first place: ammunition weight). Take the usual 5.56x45mm NATO that everyone is familiar with. One of these weighs about 3.56g, and if you multiply the amount by 100, the ammunition (alone) would have weigh about 356g. And soldiers usually carry about 6 STANAG magazines (6 x 30 = 180 rounds, which is about 640.8g, and this is WITHOUT taking weight of magazines into consideration), or even more. Possibly the closest common-issue ammunition in the West, the hard-hitting 7.62x51mm NATO, to your planned 7.76mm, weighs in about 9.5 per round. And we have not moved to the .50BMG alley yet.

That might be the prescribed load, but the fact is that ammunition is one thing soldiers DON'T mind hefting more of into battle and you'll find that any time combat is really expected they'll have stuffed more mags anywhere they fit.

Indeed your average guy with an M60 will often lugging up to 800 to a thousand rounds into action with the gun clipped into belts. SAW gunners carry even more over a thousand rounds easily if combat is expected. This is on top of there armor and other gear. In fact a fully loaded infantrymen set to march could be carrying more weight then many witches do admittedly with most of it slung over his back. A recent study found the average approach march load (basically walking up to a combat zone) was around 44 kilos. An emergency approach march load (which is more or less carrying EVERYTHING you might need in a fight) was a stagger 57 kilograms.

This is considered excessive, but the fact remains it is what troops are acutally carrying into battle on a routine basis. Thus this can be used as something of a baseline.

Also, do take note of this: Modern jet fighters carry less than 1000 rounds in their guns, and the A-10 carries ONLY 1100 rounds in their typical combat load. Antique SUU-23 gunpods of the Vietnam times carry about 1200 rounds, but they caused so much trouble with the F-4 Phantom IIs that mount them to the extent that an actual internal gun was the only way to go (which resulted in the F-4E).

These rounds are rather large though a single 20mm cartirdge for the M61 weighs as much as TEN 7.62mm rounds. Modern fighters also carry smaller loads of cannon ammo less becasue of weight concerns and more becasue these are backup weapons. Thus they have just enough ammo for a short emengrecy action, but are not loaded for use in a protracted gunfight. Most modern fighters acutally carry 500 rounds or less of shells considerably smaller then those used in a Gau-8.

Of course, there is always the FIM-92 Stinger, but it works better with a launcher.

Stingers are perhaps the best option although there effectiveness against fast moving jets of dubious as they're simply not fast enough or long legged enough to make an effective pursuit and if fired from behind, forget it any fast mover will let it’s burners and accelerate out of it's engagement envelope. They’re best used against either sub-sonic close air support craft or helicopters.

A Browning M2 would still hit hard. Although it would do jack against an MBT or anything with heavy armor.

We do need to consider the fact that fire from a witch while not staggeringly so IS more powerful then normal rounds though. Thus I'd expect that using a heavy machine gun a witch could would be able to damage an APC or IFV, with accurate fire onto it's weaker areas. (which is damn near half the vehicle from the air) but indeed a full weight MBT would require something like a missile or cannon to defeat more then likely.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kha

One problem though, flying tanks? Or would they be ground to air assault platforms?

Strike Witches tank-version are ground based, and look like this. There's no 'hover-tank' that I'm aware of.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

I don't know I think the hints that we where in for some nasty off world visitors was pretty clear and I also think that the concept of the Scrin was probably reasaonbly fleshed out in the minds of the writers by that point. You can't really foreshadow wihtout having some idea WHAT your foreshadowing. If Tiberian Sun hadn't sucked so bad I bet we'd have seen a follow on signifcantly sooner with a similiar plot to what we got in the end.

Well yeah, but this is just a case of bizarre coincident. The creators may have been thinking out the idea fro Scrin for years, but nobody besides them knew that they were going to be miasma spreading evil creatures that sowed Tiberium on earth so they could later harvest it (the only connection I made was that it could have been something from the ships' power core or the like that accidentally spread) So either it was a coincidence, or a Japanese mangaka miraculously made accurate predictions on how a future race in a western game would progress, or Japanese mind-reading technology is more advanced then we thought.

I'm going for the former and call it a coincidence.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Well sometimes they fire fast and then other times they seem to fire a burst and then just sit there sucking down bullets for awhile... Though I should mention that in my own visions of the Scrin I’ve taken some efforts to make them more formidable since they’re freed of the need to be balanced in game. In particular their heavier air force has gotten much more deadly as there battleships mounted plenty of anti-air weapons and were basically immune to anything short of a veritable storm of missiles due to there bulk and shielding. (At least before the SGC worked out how to modify their shield modulators to defeat said shields… The Scrin got a nasty surprise when they tried to invade the Japanese blue zone.)

I hope you made their mothership not so laughably small either?

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Or they're killing all the humans that know how to make beer in order to then set up there own breweries and corner the interstellar market! The bastards it's worse then we thought!

Heh, good thing I don't even drink the stuff then. Maybe I can negotiate a truce.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

I'd kind of hope the guys doing all these SW are talking to each other... but I'll admit sometimes it doesn't seem like they really are.

I highly doubt they are.

Originally Posted by Kha

One idea I'm looking at is 2 lateral points on the Striker units that can carry a small sidewinder missile each? They'd be fired off, then the Wizard returns to ship to rearm and fly out again, with his gatling as a close quarter deterant weapon, like why fighters still carry a machine cannon even though missiles are their main arm.

Why not give them a missile launcher a-la Sanya? Not only are they canon, but they also allow for no less then 9 missiles, all of which have quite an impact, before having to re-arm.

Originally Posted by kct

We have no idea if the said method is still employed in the current iteration of Strike Witches.

And we have no idea if they're not, there's no reason to throw away a perfectly good idea just because the anime didn't show it.

[kct]

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Caliber isn't really the major issue anyway just consider a 40mm grenade launcher and a 40mm bofors. Some of the anti-tank weapons of today are extremely fat as well (since width is directly related to the effectiveness of a shaped charge). If you really want an idea of relative power look at the LENGTH of the cartridge.

Not to mention the development that went into the rounds the gun fires. The States doesn't have a problem waiting for the L44s for the Abrams when it first came out. In fact, the original M1 Abrams used a Patton-vintage L7/M68 105mm main gun, and they can delay installing the L44 until the mid-80s because of development of advanced rounds for the M68 (like DU penetrators and the like), which meant that they are sufficient enough as a temporary solution to give the tank some considerable firepower.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Would very much help as indeed allot of the weight you run into with heavier auto-cannons is the feeding system the gun and breech itself actually not being a huge part of that.

Although it must be noted that the effectiveness of a single shot cannon in air combat would be dubious (though possible magic guidance on shots might help) though it would be viable for strikes on slower moving ground targets. Then again once you’re at the single shot level recoilless rifles start to look more attractive although muzzle velocity would be lower in most cases.

And we need to factor in the whole debate about getting hits single-shots vs. sustained fire, not to mention that the speed of air combat have grown way faster than imagined than say, the WWII. It is even pure luck if one even scores an air-to-air kill with a gun these days (against another fighter, not a slow-moving target like bombers or helicopters).

Of course, we have to look at this from Lynette's way. She is something between a WVR to BVR combatant.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

That's actually SW being a tad dense IMO you're average machine gunner will haul considerably more then that too a fight up to two or three times as much if he's a bit burly and he's a normal human. He won't be moving much once he's in position though, but then he also doesn't have magically boosted strength.

Still 3000 is probably excessive as in 7.62mm rounds that would weigh on the order of 75 kilos ignoring the belts and the drum. 1,000 I can see though.

The ammo supply might be a bit extreme more so given the nature and weight of the weapon. Try more like 1k.

1000 would be just OKAY. Then again, machinegunners are trained to fire in bursts, not going all-out (if someone fired a machinegun non-stop, the barrel would actually bend from the heat).

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Kct covered why this wouldn’t work very well. I think your best bet is a hand carried launcher with reloads in a backpack. Maybe SMALL AT rockets could be fitted onto the legs via hardpoints.

And pray hard that the Neuroi tanks doesn't go Russian, in the sense of having countermeasure systems against ATGMs and the like. Of course, we can multiply a Stinger launcher by like, four?

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Spraying bullets into a cloud bank is a piss poor way to try and kill a maneuvering air target…

And one of the lessons I've learned is that flying into clouds doesn't cover you from radar either.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

For killing heavy units in a modern setting missles are just a way better option then any sort of cannon is.

And we have to take into considerations what are we fighting. Tanks can be taken out with ATGMs like nobody's business (even the Germans are trying hard to give ATGM-launching capabilities to the Leopard 2A6 via Israel's LAHAT, although the countermeasure thing would be an annoyance), and the current trend in air-to-air missiles is about BVR seeking capabilities (for active radar missiles like everyone's beloved AMRAAM for the States, the Russian's R-77 'AMRAAMski', and Europe's Meteor), and all-aspect engagement for heat-seekers (like how Russians tried firing R-73s to the rear, which is also the reason for the 'tail' in Flankers).

But throw into something like, Vietnam, and we got a different story. Early Sparrows are fired at like, dogfight ranges? (From F-4s, no less, planes that are hopeless against dogfighting 'inferior' MiGs...in the early days.)

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Strike Witches tank-version are ground based, and look like this. There's no 'hover-tank' that I'm aware of.

That is one concept I can see being explored though namely some sort of very heavy striker with very low speed and very low altitude ceiling intended solely for working near ground level while being slightly more agile then the classic walking version. That would probably be a future development though.

Well yeah, but this is just a case of bizarre coincident.

No doubt IMO, but I'm just saying I think the pieces were in place for the Scrin first.

The creators may have been thinking out the idea fro Scrin for years, but nobody besides them knew that they were going to be miasma spreading evil creatures that sowed Tiberium on earth so they could later harvest it (the only connection I made was that it could have been something from the ships' power core or the like that accidentally spread)

You must not have been looking very hard then. First off they acutally know where Tib came from the first game lays it out it frist came from an asteroid impact near the Tiber in italy hence the name.

Anyway it was clear tib was alien, but as hints began to roll in that probably wasn't an accident it ended up here you got basiclly had two options IMO. One was that Tib was a terraforming agent given what it was doing to the palnet and this was widely thought and honestly wasn't wrong. The Scrin DO need it to live, but that turned out to be somewhat secondery to the fact t it powers everything they do.

So either it was a coincidence, or a Japanese mangaka miraculously made accurate predictions on how a future race in a western game would progress, or Japanese mind-reading technology is more advanced then we thought.

I'm going for the former and call it a coincidence.

You're ignoring option 3: The Manga-ka had a pen pal at Westwood who wrote to him all about his great ideas for the next C&C game.

I hope you made their mothership not so laughably small either?

It wasn't really laughably small so much as scaled for gameplay we never saw it in a cutscene or anything after all. Unless you also think that a GDI barrack is the size of a trailer camper... It ended up being roughly super carrier size diameter wise, but it actually remained a one trick pony since it was portrayed a command and control and terror weapon not a frontline combat unit.

Heh, good thing I don't even drink the stuff then. Maybe I can negotiate a truce.

They won't risk it so long as one European lives the chance of them producing a good brew in the future is too great...

I highly doubt they are.

Don't be SO pessimistic they might at least like E-mail each other now and then. Or it’s also possible they talk to each other all the time, but just like us can never agree on anything and so do whatever the hell they want within very board guidelines…

Why not give them a missile launcher a-la Sanya? Not only are they canon, but they also allow for no less then 9 missiles, all of which have quite an impact, before having to re-arm.

Well it depends those rockets where unguided and given there size would be very short ranged. That's the problem as you try to scale up in range weight and size skyrocket quite fast.

And we have no idea if they're not, there's no reason to throw away a perfectly good idea just because the anime didn't show it.

Agreed.

[kct]

Originally Posted by Tk3997

This is considered excessive, but the fact remains it is what troops are acutally carrying into battle on a routine basis. Thus this can be used as something of a baseline.

And I don't think body armor is much of an issue for the witches (flying ones, especially).

Also, as for the gun loads: We can always disregard that and use UNLIMITED AMMO HAX. Fighters usually carry between 600-700 rounds (that is for those with the M61, although Wiki turns up 940 for the Eagle, not sure about Europeans' BK27 and the Russians' GSh-30-1).

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by kct

Not to mention the development that went into the rounds the gun fires. The States doesn't have a problem waiting for the L44s for the Abrams when it first came out. In fact, the original M1 Abrams used a Patton-vintage L7/M68 105mm main gun, and they can delay installing the L44 until the mid-80s because of development of advanced rounds for the M68 (like DU penetrators and the like), which meant that they are sufficient enough as a temporary solution to give the tank some considerable firepower.

Well what I kinda meant was more like don't just look at "40mm" and assusme "oh it's more powerful then 30mm" when the 40mm could be a grenade launcher and the 30mm the auto-cannon on an infantry fighting vehicle. Caliber matters, but it's not the only thing that matters.

And we need to factor in the whole debate about getting hits single-shots vs. sustained fire, not to mention that the speed of air combat have grown way faster than imagined than say, the WWII. It is even pure luck if one even scores an air-to-air kill with a gun these days (against another fighter, not a slow-moving target like bombers or helicopters).

Not really a lead computing gunsight is a wonderful thing... Actually it's easier to gun an enemy aircraft today then it was in WW2. All you do is point the nose at him at which point your radar ranges him, a computer runs some quick math that would make your head hurt to calculate the perfect deflection, and all you need to do is put him in the ring and pull the trigger.

Technology has even taken the skill out of shooting.

Of course, we have to look at this from Lynette's way. She is something between a WVR to BVR combatant.

Quite though it should be noted IIRC that one of her unusual powers was being able to imbue bullets more the normal so her ranges may not be indicitve of most witches. Acutally it's rather clear they aren't as most combat takes place within visual range at a few hundred meters or less.

1000 would be just OKAY. Then again, machinegunners are trained to fire in bursts, not going all-out (if someone fired a machinegun non-stop, the barrel would actually bend from the heat).

That depends entire on the gun.

Bursts are used to conserve ammo not so much to keep the gun cool. Also consider that you'd have a brisk 100+ mile per hour wind helping carry heat off the gun.

And pray hard that the Neuroi tanks doesn't go Russian, in the sense of having countermeasure systems against ATGMs and the like. Of course, we can multiply a Stinger launcher by like, four?

Well active defenses would change things quite a bit although it must be noted that the actual combat effectiveness of these systems is still largely unproven. Still many nations are working on versions so they can't be total bunk even if they probably aren't the impenetrable shield some marketing portrays. The best defense though is still A. Don't get hit. and B. Armor as the later is always on and can't be fooled.

And one of the lessons I've learned is that flying into clouds doesn't cover you from radar either.

There's also the fact that unlike in the movies huge miles and miles long banks of clouds that just happen to be at the right altitude for an escape aren't all that common...

And we have to take into considerations what are we fighting. Tanks can be taken out with ATGMs like nobody's business
(even the Germans are trying hard to give ATGM-launching capabilities to the Leopard 2A6 via Israel's LAHAT, although the countermeasure thing would be an annoyance),

That depends entire on the tank and missile in question though with proper tactics ATGM have never been a deal breaker for tanks by and large. ATGM fired from tanks have always been gimmicky to me more of "Yeah we know our anti-armor rounds are shit, but hey you can shoot missles! that's cool right?" Missiles take longer to travel to a target, are more vulnerable to countermeasures, and many of them can only really be effectively employed while immobile.

Now all this isn't bad when they're the only possible way to fight a tank (say like in an IFV), but for something whose job is supposed to blunting enemy armor they've always struck me as a poor substitute for good armor piercing rounds and anti-tank guns.

and the current trend in air-to-air missiles is about BVR seeking capabilities (for active radar missiles like everyone's beloved AMRAAM for the States, the Russian's R-77 'AMRAAMski', and Europe's Meteor), and all-aspect engagement for heat-seekers (like how Russians tried firing R-73s to the rear, which is also the reason for the 'tail' in Flankers).

Smarter is the order of the day although dumb is still cheaper and can work damn near as well in many cases.

But throw into something like, Vietnam, and we got a different story. Early Sparrows are fired at like, dogfight ranges? (From F-4s, no less, planes that are hopeless against dogfighting 'inferior' MiGs...in the early days.)

Actually the F-4 always held the advantage because of one simple thing: Thrust. The F-4 could disengage at will and take the fight into the vertical in ways no Mig present could hope to match.

Vietnam is also a less then ideal example because the rules of engagement prohibited BVR attacks requiring a visual ID to be allowed to fire. So to some extent it was political meddling that hobbled the F-4 early on it wasn’t allowed to use that big radar and those BVR missiles. I have doubts it would have been stupendously effective, but then again Migs of that time IIRC lacked advanced countermeasures or radar warning gear so if they F-4 was too far away to see and they didn’t spot the missile and just kept cruising straight and level… who knows.

Beyond that despite all these problems the vast majority of kills came from missiles and the Sidewinder at least was general reasonably effective inside it's intended engagement envelope. It also showed the US it needed improvements and spurred them to advanced there weapons, and by the late 70s and early 80s both Sparrows and Sidewinders where much more effective and reliable. Lacking this experience I have a sneaking hunch that Russian weapons of that time were and maybe still be markedly inferior to those that came out of the US in terms of tracking and reliability in real combat.

[Wild Goose]

The F-15C Eagle holds 940, but the F-15E holds between 512 or 450 rounds (depending on Block). Most Russian planes only hold about 200-300 rounds.

As for rate of fire, I want to point out something: they made the M134 minigun man portable and slowed the recoil for an infantryman to be able to control it. Guess what? Rate of fire was 1,000 rounds per minute. Which was the same ROF as the M249 SAW. So that idea was killed off, simply becuase there's no point going through all that trouble when an LMG or a GPMG can do the same job.

As for the Tank Striker unit, that was actually what I was thinking for this random idea of Desert Rats Strike Wizards in Africa; guys using Churchill and M4 Patton Strikers to fight the Neuroi on the desert sands. Though to me they'd operate more like Infantry/Tank teams in Red Eyes; Tanks taking the center, mechanised infantry watching their flanks - combined arms action, basically.

Also, Kha's lack of knowledge is to be excused. Unlike the rest of us, who read about this sort of stuff, poor baKha was an unwilling conscript in a ceremonial outfit, trained to look pretty.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Not really a lead computing gunsight is a wonderful thing... Actually it's easier to gun an enemy aircraft today then it was in WW2. All you do is point the nose at him at which point your radar ranges him, a computer runs some quick math that would make your head hurt to calculate the perfect deflection, and all you need to do is put him in the ring and pull the trigger.

Technology has even taken the skill out of shooting.

Now if you can add that to a HUD system, our witches will be invincible!

Beyond that despite all these problems the vast majority of kills came from missiles and the Sidewinder at least was general reasonably effective inside it's intended engagement envelope. It also showed the US it needed improvements and spurred them to advanced there weapons, and by the late 70s and early 80s both Sparrows and Sidewinders where much more effective and reliable. Lacking this experience I have a sneaking hunch that Russian weapons of that time were and maybe still be markedly inferior to those that came out of the US in terms of tracking and reliability in real combat.

The US Navy would disagree with you; in one engagement with two Libyan MiGs, it took 2 Tomcats 3 Sparrows to get one kill. On the other hand, in the Gulf of Sidra incident (2 Tomcats vs 2 Su-22J Fitters), the 2 Navy jocks fired 2 Sidewinders which downed 2 Fitters. Sidewinder has been described as "a cheap no-brain heatseeker that never seems to miss" . Though F-15s and F-14s with AIM-7s in Gulf War 1 had good sucess rates.

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by kct

Also, as for the gun loads: We can always disregard that and use UNLIMITED AMMO HAX. Fighters usually carry between 600-700 rounds (that is for those with the M61, although Wiki turns up 940 for the Eagle, not sure about Europeans' BK27 and the Russians' GSh-30-1).

It's acutally less then that on most aircraft again 500'ish seems to be the norm for the M61 considerably less on most other modern jets.

M61:
F-18: 578
F-16: 511
F-15E: 510
F-22: 480

The BK-27:
JAS-39: 120 rounds
Tornado: 180 Rounds
I can't find the Typhoons load, but I'd bet it's somewhere between that 150 rounds seem a reasoanble guess... Unless it's a UK model in which case the count is zero since they decided to install the gun, but not buy ammo!

As for the Russians they prefer a bigger cannon, but that means fewer an SU-27 has only 150 rounds on board for it's 30mm and the Mig-29 was the same. This does not seem to have changed with the various models of the aircraft.

Personally for my money against a modern jet with very little protection I think 20mm with a higher fire rate and more ammo is better then 30mm and less of both. Combat seems to bare this out with very few complaints regarding the on target effects of 20mm shells against threat aircraft. So if both work I'll take more ammo over more power.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Now if you can add that to a HUD system, our witches will be invincible!

Cept that enemy aircraft have no valid reason to approach anywhere near the witch and the witch will have very little ammo for any weapon suitable for fighting jets... and will have no idea where it's coming from because of a lack of high power radar.

The US Navy would disagree with you; in one engagement with two Libyan MiGs, it took 2 Tomcats 3 Sparrows to get one kill. On the other hand, in the Gulf of Sidra incident (2 Tomcats vs 2 Su-22J Fitters), the 2 Navy jocks fired 2 Sidewinders which downed 2 Fitters. Sidewinder has been described as "a cheap no-brain heatseeker that never seems to miss" . Though F-15s and F-14s with AIM-7s in Gulf War 1 had good sucess rates.

Those are totally different weapons compared to the one used in Vietnam the Sparrow was in service for around 50 years (it still is it's only being just phased out)it changed slightly over that time frame.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Tk3997

That is one concept I can see being explored though namely some sort of very heavy striker with very low speed and very low altitude ceiling intended solely for working near ground level while being slightly more agile then the classic walking version. That would probably be a future development though.

Sounds like those Japanese fighters you explained to me in Cadia.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

No doubt IMO, but I'm just saying I think the pieces were in place for the Scrin first.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

You must not have been looking very hard then. First off they acutally know where Tib came from the first game lays it out it frist came from an asteroid impact near the Tiber in italy hence the name.

Freh, never played the first game and it was ages since I played the second. All I remember was that it came from space (though I do recall watching some cutscene somewhere on the Internet where Kane claims he named it after Tiberius Caesar).

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Anyway it was clear tib was alien, but as hints began to roll in that probably wasn't an accident it ended up here you got basiclly had two options IMO. One was that Tib was a terraforming agent given what it was doing to the palnet and this was widely thought and honestly wasn't wrong. The Scrin DO need it to live, but that turned out to be somewhat secondery to the fact t it powers everything they do.

And thats where I figured it was something they leaked from their reactor. For me, the alien ship was the source. After all, in the future everything runs on crystals!

Originally Posted by Tk3997

You're ignoring option 3: The Manga-ka had a pen pal at Westwood who wrote to him all about his great ideas for the next C&C game.

That would be option 4 then, and arguably even more crazy then the mind-reading idea.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

It wasn't really laughably small so much as scaled for gameplay we never saw it in a cutscene or anything after all. Unless you also think that a GDI barrack is the size of a trailer camper... It ended up being roughly super carrier size diameter wise, but it actually remained a one trick pony since it was portrayed a command and control and terror weapon not a frontline combat unit.

I know it was scaled for gameplay... but for something called a mothership that thing was pathetically small. But then again, so were all the Scrin cruisers.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

They won't risk it so long as one European lives the chance of them producing a good brew in the future is too great...

You underestimate the strength of Dutch negotiation.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Don't be SO pessimistic they might at least like E-mail each other now and then. Or it’s also possible they talk to each other all the time, but just like us can never agree on anything and so do whatever the hell they want within very board guidelines…

An E-mail here and there may be possible, but beyond that I think they're working just like us: mostly relying on what they can read.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Well it depends those rockets where unguided and given there size would be very short ranged. That's the problem as you try to scale up in range weight and size skyrocket quite fast.

well I don't think we'll see 'beyond the horizon' combat in Strike Witches that often anyway so the range of Sanya's rockets (which was what? A couple of hundred meters? I'm bad at judging distances...) should be enough for most air-to-air combat. And those things had a good blast radius to boot.

Originally Posted by kct

And I don't think body armor is much of an issue for the witches (flying ones, especially).

Also, as for the gun loads: We can always disregard that and use UNLIMITED AMMO HAX. Fighters usually carry between 600-700 rounds (that is for those with the M61, although Wiki turns up 940 for the Eagle, not sure about Europeans' BK27 and the Russians' GSh-30-1).

Instead of invoking that rule, its better to make less obvious in your writing.

For example, as soon as you start writing the number of rounds fired, you're writing yourself into a corner, because the people who know their stuff are going to be noting it if you've fired too many shots. Instead, writing 'a burst of bullets' or 'several rounds' keeps things vague and will keep your story easier to write and more believable.

[Kyral]

I was finally able to design Strike Wizard Elric and will be able to scan it tomorrow.

Rinyas design will follow through the week. Still have to look up some japanese weapon and uniform designs.
Or I simply copy the uniform of Amaki who also shows up in the last episode.