The Industry - Lifestyle and Wages

[SeijiSensei]

One problem, that the Times article mentions, is the nature of the production committee system. Anime studios are largely "hired guns," commissioned by the owner of a property like a manga or novel. My understanding is that the studios get paid a fixed amount; their contracts do not include a share of the profits. This system limits the risk for the studios, but also limits their payoffs if a show becomes a hit. Given the number of studios that might be competing for the right to animate a property, it's easy for bidding wars to occur with some studios low-balling to get the contract. That process tends to depress wages for those working in the studios.

[dragon1412]

I think we can all agree that at this point, the production committee models scale towards the investor too much compare to the studio. Especially with the current era of economic change. It turn a round back to the point that JP working culture is really what enabling all this thing to happen. Sigh......

[0cean]

I fundamentally disagree that this is a problem.

People are willing to sign contracts to work under these conditions. We shouldn't patronize them for their decisions.
Wikipedia editors slave away without even getting any kind of compensation. Money isn't everything for everyone.

Western culture is rather weird in that people will get all up in arms to defend strangers from perceived sleights, that the strangers in question may not even recognize as such. Of course, up in arms usually means bullying someone else into solving this perceived problem. Like the government, some business or rich people. Rarely does anyone ever put money out of their own pocket forward to fix the perceived sleight. Already mentioned was "The Animator Dormitory Project". You can give them money, if you care to. Make it a recurring payment, if you wish. Be the change you want to see in the world. Or just keep circlejerking, I guess.

The system in Japan works to the effect that there exists an anime industry in Japan. Most countries don't have a comparable industry. And I don't think it would be unfair to claim that a major reason for this is how passionate people are about anime. On both sides. Creators work for little compensation and fans pay a premium for the finished product. How many series for about $300 a pop did you import from Japan last year?

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I mean, if we want to extend the social-justice argument to one of its logical conclusions, it's valid to ask if we the viewers are prepared to stop consuming anime and its related products and services, lest we also enable the continued abuse of animators and artists.

All that would accomplish is the demise of the anime industry. More money would need to be poured into the industry, so that studios could risk creating their own anime instead of accepting safe jobs to make them for other people that shoulder the financial risk. Then we may get more projects like Cencoroll.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by 0cean

Western culture is rather weird in that people will get all up in arms to defend strangers from perceived sleights, that the strangers in question may not even recognize as such.

In this case, people within the industry in Japan have in fact been calling attention to the situation, all the more in recent years, so you can't say that they don't recognize the problem. How to solve the problem is complicated, obviously. Your view that because they participate in the industry they therefore accept the status quo as having no problem is incomplete and inaccurate.

Originally Posted by 0cean

Wikipedia editors slave away without even getting any kind of compensation. Money isn't everything for everyone.

This is supremely silly. People who work in the anime industry aren't volunteers helping a nonprofit foundation improve the quality of public information in their spare time.

Originally Posted by 0cean

The system in Japan works to the effect that there exists an anime industry in Japan.

This is so ridiculously reductionist. Things can be "functioning" but still have admitted failures and opportunities for improvement. No system is so perfect that it is beyond being improved, nor so fragile that any possible attempt to make things better will necessarily result in its inevitable collapse. Why would anyone ever try to improve anything if that was their view of the world ("if I touch it, it'll just break, so I'd better leave everything the way it is.") Helping draw attention to the issues that people within the industry itself have been bringing awareness to is not some sort of patronizing colonialism/imperialism.


Honestly, this:

Originally Posted by 0cean

I fundamentally disagree that this is a problem.

...really has an awful lot to do with this:

Originally Posted by 0cean

I don't really care one way or another for the people working in the trenches.

We can disagree all we want about the way to solve the problem using various economic theories and approaches, but this is a bridge that cannot be mended in this discussion. If you literally do not care for those who are adversely impacted by the current situation, there is absolutely nothing worth discussing with you.

Since you don't care, do not participate in this thread again. You are not welcome.

[0cean]

I care for the anime industry. This thread is about the anime industry.

I'm just arguing a different point and to convince me that this is indeed a problem, one would have to show how it negatively impacts the anime industry's ability to produce anime. Because that's the reason I care in the first place.

Additionally, it matters little what I think, since what I'm thinking isn't preventing you from proposing and executing a solution to what you perceive to be a problem. Though, my line of thinking likely isn't that uncommon among the people directly responsible for the current state of affairs, so if someone could manage to convince me from their point of view, that could be considered as a first step towards a solution. I therefore disagree that there's nothing worth discussing with me.

Hiding away in an echo chamber won't solve anything.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

We can disagree all we want about the way to solve the problem using various economic theories and approaches, but this is a bridge that cannot be mended in this discussion. If you literally do not care for those who are adversely impacted by the current situation, there is absolutely nothing worth discussing with you.

Since you don't care, do not participate in this thread again. You are not welcome.

Let's avoid such drastic action. I think it's okay to disagree vehemently with each other's positions. That's part of discourse, and I don't feel that Ocean had been disrespectful or inflammatory in his views, even though I am philosophically and ethically opposed to his arguments.

For what it's worth, his point of view did prompt me to look further into the conditions that attract amateur artists and animators into the anime industry. There are in fact independent journal articles on the topic, undertaken by Western researchers. That was a surprise, and it gave me some sobering insight into the sad situation.

Ocean isn't wrong in the sense that young Japanese are willingly entering the industry, despite knowing the slave-like conditions. That's why I would grudgingly agree that it's a problem of their own making.

To some extent, this is another version of the "starving artist" dilemma. I'm told, for example, that artists in America also weren't paid all that well during the heydays of superhero comics. So that's another angle I would probably study further when I have the time. Is it still a problem? How did it get solved or mitigated? Or has the market moved on, and it's all about movies now, not the comic books? Lots to find out.

Long story short, let's not indulge in cancelling opposing views too harshly.

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Ocean isn't wrong in the sense that young Japanese are willingly entering the industry, despite knowing the slave-like conditions. That's why I would grudgingly agree that it's a problem of their own making.

No, the number of animator have been decreasing over the years, and it is rapidly becoming the problem

There are still young people enter it sure, but they are much more realistic about it, basically, if I can't make it big in X number of years, I'm leaving or if I start a family, I'm leaving the industry, but the animators numbers entering every years is definitely declining rather than there is enough fodder around for big committee throwing as they please. It still doesn't as big of a problem now because the numbers is still drafted from previous gen when people still haven't realize the reality of being an animators, and their skillset is limited so they can only do such works if they can't find a job in the game industry or adjacent industries where they can't transfer their skillset. I do agree that part of the problem is Japanese unhealthy work ethic and attidude that lead to this situation in the first place.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

To some extent, this is another version of the "starving artist" dilemma. I'm told, for example, that artists in America also weren't paid all that well during the heydays of superhero comics. So that's another angle I would probably study further when I have the time. Is it still a problem? How did it get solved or mitigated? Or has the market moved on, and it's all about movies now, not the comic books? Lots to find out.

Long story short, let's not indulge in cancelling opposing views too harshly.

0cean view is that, he don't care about the situation of the industry as long as new anime is made. He has good point that people still getting in despite knowing the conditions. For now, that is, I mean, like I said above, right now the industry still are able to drawn a large numbers of animator from older generations who unable to transfer their specific skillset into another jobs, but sign of issues already showing, the increasing numbers of adaptions instead of original because of risk avoidance strategy, The increasing use of CGI even if it decrease quality due to lack of animators and lower budget. The younger animator generations is a lot more realistic towards the industry, and that's why the numbers of them was on decline. People say that animators knowing the actual conditions of the industry is a very recent thing, around 10 years ago many animators still getting into the industry with rose tinted glasses. It is only 5 or 6 years recently this would make the news, and people would be more realistic toward it. In fact, the productions committee and anime industry money flow is largely unknown to most people up until around 8-9 years ago where it only start to garner attentions of other. This was also the period where young mangaka in a weekly magazine punishing schedules is known if I remember correctly.

Right now anime industry is still possessing many veterans with skills, but if the situations going on, as in new bloods quit when starting family or can't make it big, it is hard to say for the numbers as a whole, but the veteran artist and animators is definitely going to to decrease, which drastically lower the quality of anime. It is not something that show problem immedietly but the hollows of veteran will starting became a serious pain when the previous gen start to get into retirement while the maturing generations that supposed to replace them trickled down to another industry to find better prospect/

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by dragon1412

No, the number of animator have been decreasing over the years, and it is rapidly becoming the problem

The number of young Japanese entrants to the industry may be falling, but the number of new anime productions is increasing at the same time.

Let that sink in for a while. What does it mean? It means that the production committee system is, despite all its egregious faults, working. It's working extremely well for the IP holders, in fact. And if the system is profitable for the rights holders, then there is very little incentive for them to change the system.

As for the declining number of local talent — it's not strictly an issue. The anime industry has been steadily outsourcing the work to artists and animators in other countries for a number of years now. Originally, it was to studios in South Korea, but the pool has long since expanded to also include talent in China, the Philippines, and even Vietnam.

Particularly for workers in the Philippines and Vietnam, the low rate isn't as big of an issue, because the cost of living is so much lower there.

So, what does this mean in the long term? As I said before, the long-term implications are that the day will come when "anime" is not going to be Japanese any more. The aesthetic will come to encompass a style of animation and art that is common throughout East Asia.

I shared an article not too long ago in this thread. Here is the key quote:

Irie Yasuhiro, representative director JAniCA, says the main reason young animators cannot accumulate enough experience today is the Japanese animation industry's dependence on offshoring. He estimates that 80 per cent to 90 per cent of the in-betweening work in Japanese animation is now being outsourced overseas, primarily to China and South Korea.

Mr Yasuhiro bluntly observed that Japanese studios are indirectly training the next generation of talent in other countries, while doing nothing to protect and groom their own talent.

From another JAniCA report:

The Chinese theatrical animation industry started the year 2019 with uncertainty due to a significant decline of its box-office takings since 2016; however, a work which totally dispelled such worries finally arrived: The 3-D animation Ne Zha.

Ne Zha eventually recorded 5 billion yuan (80 billion yen), overtaking the Chinese record of the global boxoffice champion, The Incredibles. This will surely trigger a boom in production investment...and accelerate the expansion of the Chinese animation industry.

But there is a risk that China will detach itself from Japanese animation. Chinese creators, including the director of Ne Zha, were born in the 80s and were deeply influenced by Japanese manga, anime, and games. Now it seems those creators have already mastered their own methods of expression and fully absorbed Japanese culture.

It's now a question whether China, with such talented creators, still needs to collaborate with Japan.

Here's an example of what Chinese animators are capable of today:

Fire vs Ice ("Fog Hill of Five Elements")

YouTube

https://youtu.be/0OoKXPUvVbo

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I'll be frank: Even if I were not Chinese by ethnicity, I sure as hell would support more of such projects going forward. They're a tremendous breath of fresh air compared to the endless iterations of isekai projects in Japanese anime today. (The English title of the above project is, as one would expect, a somewhat poor translation. The Chinese title is 雾山五行 . A more accurate translation would be "The Five Paths of Fog Hill", or the "Five Paths of Fog Hill".)

So, the Japanese anime industry, and the government, is as usual very short-sighted. They fail to see the larger picture, and the longer-term risks of hollowing out their own industry. If they continue on this path, there eventually will not be any worthwhile "Japanese" anime industry to talk about. The real talent will come from overseas.

By then, it'll be too late to reverse the trend for domestic talent.

[dragon1412]

I think it's half and half from economic perspective, I agree that Japan, in a way, is training other country talent and rather short sighted, But I don't really share the idea that Chinese or Korean or any SEA country taking over anime, largely because they will face the same problem. Point no further than the tech area where country who outsourcing software to China face the exact same problem with Japanese Anime. And I think you heard about the 996 already. The 996 exist in tech scene for years, but only very recently come to light. For the exact same reason, low wage and punishing schedule. Why does it exist up until this long ? because prior to now, Tech and software in CN was a green field, so everyone can get good pay simply enter the field, but when enough people exist, there will be a lot more marginal cut and the punishing schedule don't seem to worth it.

The same apply to China game industry and even animations, they only came to prominents 3-4 years recently, the industry itself is young and there is not much people with specific skillset needed, so as for now, it still has a lot of room to growth, and there is not much product or big name out there yet. But when a lot of people see that the game and animation industry is a green field and jumping in, we will see an exact situation that happened to tech industry in CN, except that animations industry capacity is a lot more smaller compare to tech. And they would be facing the marginal cost issues which lead to the dreaded 996 again. Especially when it come to CN, high turnover rate in business due to extreme schedule and low wage is very common.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

That's part of discourse, and I don't feel that Ocean had been disrespectful or inflammatory in his views, even though I am philosophically and ethically opposed to his arguments.

I absolutely consider it disrespectful and inflammatory, in a thread discussing the lifestyle and wages of animators and other workers in this industry, to say that you don't care about the problems faced by the people impacted and to insinuate that it's all just a problem of their own making. This is a thread specifically about them and this issue. Having basic empathy for the people impacted by the situation -- which many people in the anime industry have proclaimed as a problem -- should be the bare minimum requirement for participating in the conversation, whether or not someone has other viewpoints about things like the extent of the problem or the way to solve it.

A flawed process can still produce an acceptable result by some measures. But you have to measure a process's effectiveness holistically considering all the impacts, including human impacts, environmental impacts, societal impacts, globalization trends, long-term growth potential, etc. So again, it's reductionist to say that "the process is working therefore there's no problem." There are problems -- people working in the industry tell us there are problems and we see evidence of failed and collapsed productions on a regular basis (again with staff often coming out of the woodwork to provide insights into the problems faced, often stemming from directly related issues). Things can be improved. At the same time, it's not like it's all problems either. The whole industry is not imminently collapsing upon itself, and investment from Western streaming companies has helped infuse some cash to keep things afloat at least for now. The discussion has to occur somewhere in the middle.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Long story short, let's not indulge in cancelling opposing views too harshly.

I think, in an over-reaction to some other people's over-sensitivity, you're being overly generous. The "opposing view" has essentially cancelled the entire topic by proclaiming they don't believe there's a problem and that they don't care about those impacted since production output seems, to them, to not be adversely impacted. Since they won't accept testimonials from workers, evidence from individual failed productions, or industry research and journalism, what arguments can possibly be made? The only evidence I can imagine that would seemingly convince them may be an industry-wide production collapse that is directly attributable to poor working conditions, and undeniable production output improvements attributed directly to improved working conditions? If you don't accept evidence of the improved quality of output from successful studios that pay their people well as evidence enough to support the potential benefits of employee QoL and benefits, what would you entertain? Basically the whole view is so "free-market absolutist" that no problem can exist that wouldn't correct itself by the free market anyway, so why discuss anything?

As you pointed out, the industry itself is "routing around" the problem by outsourcing production to other markets, and it's much more likely that this will manifest itself over time as a shift of lead anime production talent to other countries. By the time any shift happens enough to be undeniable, it will be too late to reverse course. And when that happens, rather than attributing the change in output to working conditions or anything else, it's equally likely that the consumer who cares only about anime industry output and its impact on them personally will just believe anime output no longer matches their personal tastes and move on, as happens all the time.

In other words, this is a topic about the workers in the anime industry and their working conditions. If someone doesn't care about them and doesn't want to listen to them talk about their working conditions or entertain solutions to their stated problems, it sure seems to me like this thread is irrelevant to them and it's just arguing for arguing's sake. It has nothing to do with "cancelling opposing views" (or about an "echo chamber") it's about actually discussing the topic at hand. The room for disagreement within that sphere is still immense.

[AnimeFan188]

The Battle for Union Anime Dubs

"Crunchyroll and FUNimation are competitors no longer. Now merged into a single
company under their parent company Sony, this new incarnation of Crunchyroll is the
largest and most powerful anime company outside of Japan. Almost immediately after
the merger was announced, voice actor Stephanie Sheh (Usagi in Sailor Moon) tweeted
“Now that Funimation & Crunchyroll are merging, can we get some union dubs?” Actors
like Crispin Freeman and Ben Diskin chimed in to support Sheh's request, arguing that
Sony's backing means Crunchyroll can afford to switch over to union dubbing. But what
exactly are union dubs? And why are actors demanding them now?

When it comes to film and TV acting in the U.S., there's really only one labor union: the
Screen Actors Guild - American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, a.k.a. SAG-
AFTRA or SAG. As Justin Sevakis explained in an Answerman column back in 2019, the
union represents over 160,000 performers — including voice actors — and negotiates
contracts with studios to guarantee consistent pay, working conditions, contributions
toward health insurance and a pension, and preferential casting for union members. A
union dub is simply a show with a SAG contract. If a studio doesn't have a contract,
members aren't allowed to work for them, and the studio has to hire non-union talent
instead.

“Employers are conditioned to believe that any actor who asks for too much can easily
be replaced with someone else,” says voice actor Kyle McCarley (Mob in Mob Psycho
100). “But when we have the support of all our peers, we can stand firm on certain
minimum requirements without fear of being replaced.” "

See:

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/fea...e-dubs/.183842

[stray]

Somewhat on a tangent but even with that RightStuf money Crunchyroll refuses to even talk to the union when it comes to their dub actors.

https://kotaku.com/mob-psycho-100-cr...tra-1849559684

I'm not a fan of dubs but I am a fan of people getting paid for what they do as well as healthcare and stuff so this is pretty disappointing.

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by stray

I am a fan of people getting paid for what they do as well as healthcare and stuff so this is pretty disappointing.

Crunchyroll only sees the anime industry as a way to earn money
+
Having to use that money for anything other than filling up their pockets
=

[Guardian Enzo]

CR is the absolute worst when it comes to paying translators as well. When you consider that most of the dub actors on JJK earned about $300 with no residuals, and how much CR has made off that show, the sheer scope of their evil is really apparent.

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

CR is the absolute worst when it comes to paying translators as well. When you consider that most of the dub actors on JJK earned about $300 with no residuals, and how much CR has made off that show, the sheer scope of their evil is really apparent.

I'm sure Disney will still have them beat. But yeah, CR truly are scummy for providing a mediocre service.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

CR is the absolute worst when it comes to paying translators as well. When you consider that most of the dub actors on JJK earned about $300 with no residuals, and how much CR has made off that show, the sheer scope of their evil is really apparent.

Just to clarify, that was for their work on the movie. It's a ridiculously low pay given how much it made, and it's not like they didn't know it would be a success since the series was one of their biggest hit.

I'm not trying to defend them but I'm just genuinely wondering: does Netflix and the likes actually pay more?

[Guardian Enzo]

Netflix pays dub actors and translators a shitload more than CR does.

[Marcus H.]

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

Crunchyroll only sees the anime industry as a way to earn money
+
Having to use that money for anything other than filling up their pockets
=

Funny you say that; someone saw this sentiment in full display as they were planning to cancel their CR subscription:

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Original tweet: https://twitter.com/JuneYoon_/status...PIWOQ74Vg&s=19

[stray]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

I'm sure Disney will still have them beat. But yeah, CR truly are scummy for providing a mediocre service.

Disney hires union at least though it remains to be seen what happens to the anime currently in Disney jail. I'm 99% positive the Marvel VFX department is a sweatshop though, probably with more crunch than Rockstar at its worst.

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Funny you say that; someone saw this sentiment in full display as they were planning to cancel their CR subscription:

I just cancelled myself and kind of laughed when I read that. Feels gross that I supported Crunchyroll anyway to the tune of $360 in manga and LN that I just got from RightStuf. I haven't ordered from them since the buyout but I still have like $230 in preorders and backorders waiting to be fulfilled.

I don't want to shit on dubs too much (I barely turn them on anymore) but the lack of continuity is one thing that always rubbed me the wrong way. Having VA change from season to season or game to game or even game to remaster just makes the whole experience feel low budget or cheap.

[relentlessflame]

It seems that, in this specific case, the issue did not appear to be pay. Even if it had been a union job, it does not seem like they were asking for more money. (Whether dub actors, or translators for that matter, should be paid more for their work is another fair conversation, but might not be the issue here.) The issue appears to be that Crunchyroll decided to use their internal team and did not want to even have a conversation about using the external actors or with the union at all.

I think a fundamental issue throughout this whole thing is that dub actors are not treated with the same kind of respect as "real actors." The emphasis on SimulDubs is making this even more of a "factory" where they have an extremely narrow timeframe to push out the work, so they prioritize efficiency above all, and I honestly think that's the root cause for this particular situation more than anything else.

I can see why, in isolation of other factors, the tight timelines of SimulDubs means that you want to eliminate any "complications" from the production process, and that could include the involvement of external parties or stakeholders. Doing everything in house gives you full control, which can be helpful when dealing with very tight turnaround requirements. But I guess the question is: are SimulDubs really so important/critical that it should be valued above and beyond other factors like cast continuity? I don't think the root of this decision is about saving money, because the time/production constraints of SimulDubs make this a more costly affair on the whole, and voice actors are seemingly not a major component of the overall production cost (as noted here, the issue didn't appear to be about money).

All in all, it seems like someone must have looked at some metrics and come to the conclusion that dub delays severely impact total viewership (perhaps because some people lose interest when things get spoiled?), so they decided that the top priority should be a day-and-date dub release. So, in a way, this whole situation is a perfect test of their theory, since it will demonstrate if people truly value timeliness as the most important factor.

Fundamentally, I am not convinced a majority of anime fans really care that much about "the craft." Given the choice between "faster/cheaper" and "better continuity/higher quality," I really think most are going to choose the former. I realize that this may seem like a false dichotomy in this case (because the old dub cast said they were willing to do the work non-union as long as the union was talked to), but I suspect this is about the bigger picture of avoiding these kinds of external factors in the simuldub production process entirely regardless of the specifics of this particular case. But this is part of the whole "factory" approach that simuldubs imply -- efficiency over artistry or other (seeming) "nice-to-haves" like cast continuity.

And, well... I honestly don't find Crunchyroll "particularly" evil, any moreso than all the other companies involved in the anime industry. The only real difference in this particular case is that the voice acting scene is so much more crucial in Japan, so it's valued a lot more by the fanbase than the dub scene is. In the English world, dubs are mostly treated as a "utility," whereas in Japan it's a critical aspect of the production (VAs are often treated as "celebrities"). Until we get to this same sort of point in the English world, this sort of casual nonchalance about recasting roles whenever it's more efficient to do so will continue because they figure no one cares.

(Likewise with translators -- many people care so little about quality and good writing that they'll settle for machine translation and think it's good enough. Plus, the fansubbing world has caused people to treat the value of translators as $0 because they are used to people being out there who do it for free. So because of this, no one wants to pay translators what they're worth. As long as people value "fast, cheap" above all and have such low standards about writing quality, I'm not sure how you'd convince any company to pay well above "competitive market rates" for translation. If machine translation got "good enough" they'd just ditch translators entirely, because again it's considered "utility" and not actually valued as a craft in its own right. I don't know how you change this perception, but the wider anime industry certainly isn't alone here, nor are Crunchyroll's rates particularly low compared to other similar jobs.)