Why are people so against anime?

[psycho bolt]

A lot of people who hate/dislike anime probably had bad or lacking experiences of anime. I know that's a generalization, but either you're experienced or not. I was lucky enough to be introduced to some excellent anime shows. Then my friends gave me different genres, each giving me a taste of a new experience. I eventually went and discovered all kinds of anime. Watched them all from weird, emotional, to inspirational. I was disgusted and intrigued. Of course, I favor the anime with well written stories over entertaining, but its been years after then that my friends gave up on anime. All reverted to the same idea.... its not cool or adult to watch these kinds of shows. Or that its the same stuff again and again (I kinda agree, but still kept my faith in the industry in producing the more rarer shows. And they watch TV dramas so I can't see the argument) I gotta say though, its the experience of watching so that you won't give up after a short run. Any ways that's my rant. And with religious or conservatives folk, they have to change themselves but its not up to your business.

A colleague at work said that he couldn't get into anime. He didn't say why, but from my guess it could be either is too cartoony and not live action. So there could be preferences..

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by GDiddy

Sometimes though, I see how clean and wholesome some shows like K-ON and Love Live look like(though I've only seen one episode of LL) and it's like....I don't see why western audiences, especially little girls, wouldn't like these shows.

Ironically, these are among the shows I'm the most uptight about liking because I worry people won't get why a late 20s male professional would enjoy such shows and just assume that I have a latent schoolgirl fetish.

Which isn't the case at all. I'm a miko man.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Ironically, these are among the shows I'm the most uptight about liking because I worry people won't get why a late 20s male professional would enjoy such shows and just assume that I have a latent schoolgirl fetish.

Because it is very much a part of my day job to be alert to how certain quotes can mean very different things if they're taken out of context, I once wondered how Hayao Miyazaki might appear to laymen when he apparently said this during an interview.

Question: Why do you always choose a girl as your theme?

Miyazaki: I just say "because I like women". That has more reality.

(Images of pedo-bear and lecherous old men run through my dirty mind...)

His full answer:

Question: Why do you always choose a girl as your theme?

Miyazaki: I don't logically plan it that way. When we compare a man in action and a girl in action, I feel girls are more gallant. If a boy is walking with a long stride, I don't think anything particular, but if a girl is walking gallantly, I feel "that's cool".

Maybe that's because I'm a man, and women may think it's cool when they see a young man striding. At first, I thought "this is no longer the era of men. This is no longer the era of "taigimeibun". But after 10 years, I grew tired of saying that. I just say "because I like women". That has more reality.

My point? Beware of how you communicate your interests to people who have little to no background knowledge of your hobby.

It's all too easy to be misunderstood.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

My point? Beware of how you communicate your interests to people who have little to no background knowledge of your hobby.

It's all too easy to be misunderstood.

Eh, if anything I'm hyper alert to the possibility. Hence why I pretty much never talk anime with outsiders. I get way too tense.

(Which should make it easy to understand why I'm apprehensive about the idea of anime going mainstream. One of the reasons I love anime events (the other being that my girlfriend and her friends are cosplayers and I'm a photographer) is because they are the one place I don't feel tense talking about my hobby, a sudden influx of newbies who may or may not be on the same page regarding some things would change that completely.)

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Ironically, these are among the shows I'm the most uptight about liking because I worry people won't get why a late 20s male professional would enjoy such shows and just assume that I have a latent schoolgirl fetish.

Which isn't the case at all. I'm a miko man.

Do I know you?

I know someone else on another anime site who loves mikos.


I can understand that though; I mean, look at the male fans who like My Little Pony but have no interest in the sordid fandom that show has.

[Strikefreedom117]

Because those people don't know the power of lolis~

[TinyRedLeaf]

It's a feature story for BBC Radio, but I believe it's relevant to this thread, especially as you'll get to hear Japanese opinions on pornographic anime and manga.

Should comics be crimes?

Last year, Japan became the last OECD country to outlaw the possession of real child abuse images, but they decided not to ban manga and anime. To many outsiders and some Japanese, this seems baffling - another example of "weird Japan", and a sign the country still has a long way to go to taking child protection seriously.

James Fletcher travels to Tokyo to find out why the Japanese decided not to ban. Is this manga just fodder for paedophiles, and is Japan dragging its feet on protecting children? Or is Japan resisting moral panic and standing up for freedom of thought and expression?

BBC

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by GDiddy

Do I know you?

I know someone else on another anime site who loves mikos.

I very rarely post on other anime sites and I think it's all under this screen name so probably not?

(Also, how has this been up for 24 hours without any of the Love Live fans here pointing out one of the Love Live characters is a miko as well?)

I can understand that though; I mean, look at the male fans who like My Little Pony but have no interest in the sordid fandom that show has.

Not quite what I meant. It's more like I think they're secretly thinking "Wait, this guy is 28 and he watches shows about high school girls? Okay...". Other fans don't really enter into it.

And that's for something like K-On! that's more or less 100% cuteness. Not something like, say, the Mashiro-iro Symphony anime that's like 90% cute and 10% suggestive because that's the exact cuteness/suggestiveness mix fans like me want.

The one exception is that I occasionally show normal people photos I've taken of my girlfriend's cosplays. I don't find that so intimidating despite the schoolgirl outfits.

[Fizix]

P

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Eh, if anything I'm hyper alert to the possibility. Hence why I pretty much never talk anime with outsiders. I get way too tense.

(Which should make it easy to understand why I'm apprehensive about the idea of anime going mainstream. One of the reasons I love anime events (the other being that my girlfriend and her friends are cosplayers and I'm a photographer) is because they are the one place I don't feel tense talking about my hobby, a sudden influx of newbies who may or may not be on the same page regarding some things would change that completely.)

Honestly, psycho bolt put it perfectly. He has was introduced to great shows and has been both intrigued by shows and disgusted by others. Be transparent, if people sit there saying that there isn't anything iffy or open to criticism within the medium, that will be met with cynicism. If you're unable to openly criticise stuff or agree with any criticsm that comes, even when they have a point, it comes across badly.

If you are honest and transparent about it and make your views clear, people you know will not judge you.

I don't think anime fandom helps with acceptance, too many people will act as though throwing panty shots is completely fine (it isn't, it is weird), or gags with guy falling into a woman's crotch is hilarious (it isnt, unless you're 12). That's a bit of a problem. A lot of fan service and sexualisation in anime is petty weird and sometimes can come across as juvenile. Rarely it it sexy and sometimes it can be quite inappropriate.

It's cultural dissonance I guess, but if fans make out like it's fine and normal then it comes across as though they lack social skills. Then fans wonder why people can be unaccepting. This is something I think the anime community struggles with and often for stupid reasons, the amount of times I've heard people consider criticism to be an attack on Japan or something, as if criticism is bad because of culture.

Anyway, I'm going off at a tangent.

Personally I can talk quite openly, but then I have very clean tastes and fan service bugs me. At my age, a show sexualising teenagers feels off and generally, one thing anime is terrible at is being sexy or racy. When anime tries to be sexy, it's usually quite the opposite. So I'm quite prone to slagging anime off.

Plus, I don't ram it down people's throats or try and introduce people like some kind of evangelical lunatic.


End of tangent

Yeah just be transparent. People who know you will know what you're like and won't assume you have some kind of problem as you happen to like a moe anime show. I mean, grown adults I know have guilty pleasures on Disney and Nick. It's the same thing.

Originally Posted by Strikefreedom117

Because those people don't know the power of lolis~

Can I just pull this up. I'm not having a go btw, it's just a point and a question as the word loli was used and I have an opinion on this.

I know that the term loli is a problem. It bugs me and I know a lot of people who are put out by it. Calling any kid a "loli" is immediately sexualising them, no matter what excuse or reason anyone gives, the world Lolita has deep sexual connotations. If nothing is meant by it, then it's the worst possible term to have chosen in order to be "cute".

It never used to be used though, it's fairly recent. I never used to hear people saying it back in the early part of the 00's and then suddenly over the past, probably 5 years or something, it's suddenly became normal to refer to any kid or girl who looks young as a loli.

It is weird and a bit creepy, even if it's not intended that way, it just comes across as icky. I hate it and refuse to use the term.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Fizix

Can I just pull this up. I'm not having a go btw, it's just a point and a question as the word loli was used and I have an opinion on this.

I know that the term loli is a problem. It bugs me and I know a lot of people who are put out by it. Calling any kid a "loli" is immediately sexualising them, no matter what excuse or reason anyone gives, the world Lolita has deep sexual connotations. If nothing is meant by it, then it's the worst possible term to have chosen in order to be "cute".

It never used to be used though, it's fairly recent. I never used to hear people saying it back in the early part of the 00's and then suddenly over the past, probably 5 years or something, it's suddenly became normal to refer to any kid or girl who looks young as a loli.

It is weird and a bit creepy, even if it's not intended that way, it just comes across as icky. I hate it and refuse to use the term.

Japan borrowed the term(loanword) and made it mean something else than the way you would understand it if you read Lolita by Nabokov. I get that you dislike it. But you aren't talking on the same definition or context if you're referencing japanese people using the word loli. It's a body type(like mature, round, etc) in japan. At the same time, these anime fans try to use loli the same way japan uses it.
Here's an example with two VAs. They're not using loli the same way you are at all. Likewise, lolita in japan is often used to refer to the fashion style Gothic Lolita.

[Fizix]

Originally Posted by IceHism

Japan borrowed the term(loanword) and made it mean something else than the way you would understand it if you read Lolita by Nabokov. I get that you dislike it. But you aren't talking on the same definition or context if you're referencing japanese people using the word loli. It's a body type(like mature, round, etc) in japan. At the same time, these anime fans try to use loli the same way japan uses it.
Here's an example with two VAs. They're not using loli the same way you are at all. Likewise, lolita in japan is often used to refer to the fashion style Gothic Lolita.

Sure, I understand how and why it came into useage in Japan and I don't have an issue with that. What I dislike is westerners picking it up and using it so free and easily because it has a different meaning here.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

It's a feature story for BBC Radio, but I believe it's relevant to this thread, especially as you'll get to hear Japanese opinions on pornographic anime and manga.

Should comics be crimes?

Japan needs to ban that stuff. Its saddening that the cartoon stuff was only banned here recently. It's all messed up.

I didn't listen to it all as I don't have the time nor desire to listen to freaks admitting that they like lolicon. But what I did hear of Japanese people's views, they were talking to some very unusual/fringe people in that festival and is hardly going to represent the views of Japanese people. The decision not to ban cartoons was controversial.

I don't know any Japanese people who don't feel uncomfortable about it. While they may be westernised as the only Japanese people I know are through a professional capacity, still I doubt they are special so I hope they did talk to normal manga and anime fans and the wider public too.

[GreyZone]

Fictional things are fictional things, no matter the medium. If we go by the logic of banning things that are morally bad in reality, then it would include many PC/console games as well. For example you would have to ban Grand Theft Auto long ago. I mean if you go around carrying guns and shooting at people, or hit them with a car (that you stole a few seconds earlier) then by the same logic as with the other bans, you should ban these games as well. But this game is already so deep within the western culture, that even though there are people who want to ban it, it is not, because for one "violence" is considered harmless in many countries, but there is also the issue that if it were banned, quite some people would go to the streets and start a protest.

It's a cultural thing. In the US you can have endless violence, but the moment something that even remotely hints at sexuality appears, you are the devil. It's appearantly the opposite in Germany and Australia, where sexuality does not matter mostly, but a little drop of blood could potentionally bring the game right onto the banned game index.

Now Japan is a completely different thing it seems. They have quite a bit duality, possibly due to the "humble" culture (Many people here told that this is the reason why so many dense and whimpy Main Characters, who overreact at the simplest contact with the opposite sex, exist) which may feel like "restraints" to some Japanese people, who vent their sexual frustration through such things. In that regard I can fully understand why it's not being banned: Just imagine the implications! Hundreds of Thousands, if not Millions, of people suddenly lose what they use to get over their sexual frustration and suddenly that is taken away from them, banned by law. Do you really thing the situation would IMPROVE like this? If yes, WHY do you think so? Do you think those people suddenly don't need to vent their sexual frustration anymore, or do you have confidence that they will instead use something "better" to vent their frustration and not something worse?

If you ask me banning those things is a very dangerous game. If we accept the logic that "consuming" such media will make people become some kind of criminal, then wouldn't taking it away not raise the chance of them going nuts even more? Well yes, it's as bleak as it sounds. If those arguments of those "studies" were the actual truth it would lead to a "bad end" either way, however if you think more about the root problem, the solution should become obvious: Offer the people an alternative, "better" way to deal with their sexual frustration. But... well I doubt a governmental institution is capable of that... all they can hope is that the entertainment industry shifts into a "safer" direction over time.

Also it's not as bad as you think if you are simply sceptical about those arguments of people wanting to "experience the things from fiction in reality" in the first place. I for one could never quite believe this. I think only those people who already have a problem to differentiate between fiction and reality to begin with are the real danger and honestly those people would do their crimes anyway in some form, unless you manage to ban/censor ANY entertainment with "dark sexual" things and/or violence. That is plain and simple IMPOSSIBLE in this day and age of the internet. So the best solution in the end is still to find those people who cannot differentiate between fiction and reality and to properly educate them about the differences, before their inner bomb goes kaboom.

I intentionally left the topic ambigious, because I don't want to limit it on the topic of "lolis".

[Fizix]

I'm sorry but I don't think you can compare cartoon abuse that is designed to titilate perverts with Grand Theft Auto. By allowing those cartoons you are creating accessibility, you're validating something that is wrong and a there is a danger that these people who consume fiction could move onto real people.

They aren't talking about the kind of cultural dissonance we can see in normal anime such a 15 year old gaining their sexuality or being slightly sexualised. Although I don't feel that is appropriate from a western frame of reference, hence the dissonance from our perspective. They are talking about pornography.


Also, this is part of a greater problem in Japan, that being how seriously they take abuse, harassment and assault in the first place. Which is quite disgusting and inexcusable. I really don't get why so many in the anime fandom give Japan a pass, I don't get this weird sense of loyalty, especially when that same pass isn't given to other cultures. Respecting other cultures doesn't extend to not criticising stuff that's outright objectionable or wrong.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Fizix

I'm sorry but I don't think you can compare cartoon abuse that is designed to titilate perverts with Grand Theft Auto. By allowing those cartoons you are creating accessibility, you're validating something that is wrong and a there is a danger that these people who consume fiction could move onto real people.

1. Why is it supposedly "not comparable to GTA"? Why can't the same (bolded) apply to violent games like GTA? Why do you think people are more likely to replicate fictional sexual scenes instead of fictional violent scenes? What is your BASIS for that assumption?
2. Why are you confident that removing those cartoons will completely solve the problem at hand? Won't the chances be higher that it backfires and the people who got their "fiction" removed try to compensate it by replicating it in reality instead? What makes you sure that will not happen?

It's not a question of WHAT you ban, but the question of banning fictional stories in the first place. Just banning things is nothing but an attempt to run away from the ACTUAL problems, which is people mixing reality and fiction. Banning those cartoons will NOT heal those people and it's only those people who in the end really become criminals. If they don't sexually assault people, then perhaps they rob a casino because they watched Ocean's Eleven or something like that... or they simply search the internet long enough to find their usual stuff again...

[Fizix]

What about the rest of my post or does none of the other stuff come into it? Or is the only important part the bit you can demand and dispute a study over?

Anyway, I suspect there is a colossal difference in views here, so it's probably a waste of time. I honestly don't really know how to react to someone or think you can hold a reasoned discussion with someone who feels that kind of stuff has a legitimate place in the world or that it isn't outright disgusting to feed those kinds of perversions (and therefore shouldn't be done).

It's far too sensitive a subject and I think the reasons behind someone condemning or accepting it's mere existence are unbridgeable.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Fizix

I honestly don't really know how to react to someone or think you can hold a reasoned discussion with someone who feels that kind of stuff has a legitimate place in the world or that it isn't outright disgusting to feed those kinds of perversions (and therefore shouldn't be done)

I guess the disagreement comes from the fact that I don't think because a work of fiction is disgusting it means it has no legitimate place in this world.

Saya no Uta features pedophilia (with graphic sex scenes),rape,cannibalism (among many other things...) , it's still one of my favorite VNs out there.

It's far too sensitive a subject and I think the reasons behind someone condemning or accepting it's mere existence are unbridgeable.

Just to be sure, am I reading too much into this or are you accusing me of being a pedo because I don't want this stuff banned?

[GreyZone]

One should usually differentiate things correctly and not over-generalize.


If something is shown that is usually considered repulsive but also thought-provocing and adressed at a mature audience (mature as in being able to handle complicated morally grey or even black matters, not the "you are mature once you turn 18"), there is no real reason to ban it. Actually it's even good, because it creates awareness of the topic instead of turning it into a pure overdramatized witch hunt.


Of course it's a different matter if something contains such matters (pedophilia, etc.) with the sole intention to appeal to the audience's lust. Such things that are really nothing more than "immoral porn" is something that I think most people would agree should disappear. If it's properly sorted out from the thought-provocing stories that is.

[Akito Kinomoto]

IRL, underage sexuality laws are enforceable because age is precise. Nobody is being fooled when a predator says but I thought she was [legal age here]! Fictional underage sexuality is impossible to enforce because 1) determining them by age is meaningless else a lot of authors of VNs, manga, and its related cousins will place a disclaimer noting all (sexual) characters depicted are at least [legal age here], 2) enforcing it by appearance inevitably means all characters have to be drawn a certain way (censorship), and 3) this doesn't account for the frequent disconnect between age and body; Evangeline is a thousand years old in an underage body, Chachamaru is a full-figured woman but is only a few years old if at that. Even IRL, people who look underage but *aren't* are actually a thing. And while I do prefer Koi Kaze's approach to Oreimo's, I really don't feel like being Big Brother and telling them what's okay to watch and not (unless we're talking about Time of Eve. Nobody is allowed to hate Time of Eve)

[Fizix]

Not at all, it means that I think the opinions are so different and based on incompatible beliefs over what is acceptable and how content that is completely unacceptable should be dealt with.

All that can come of debating it is an argument, probably a nasty one, which won't change anyone's views so its pointless arguing it.

Like I can't even get my head around your viewpoint, its beyond me. So, that creates a problem for me to even consider the other view as something that should be entertained.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Fizix

Not at all, it means that I think the opinions are so different and based on incompatible beliefs over what is acceptable and how content that is completely unacceptable should be dealt with.

Right, sorry for being paranoid