Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Levy

Frosty dear (or anyone else, like machin-quote-gun!man-morbos, thanks! :3 ), copypaste me the quote because all I could find in that line browsing the episode was "Lelouch, I do not aknowledge your Britannia!" that is not THAT contraddicting all of this, simply, that he thinks that Lelouch is doing shit, and who could argue this....? Lelouch is doing shit on purpose!

mah subs failed me a couple of times before, I won't be surprised if they did again, still, that's all I could find.

Gino also says to Suzaku, he is fighting because he has to protect something, probably his own vision of Britannia or something like this. But still, that was initiated of Lelouch's supposed tyranny, so i will agree with you there.

Gino's last actions on Geass, left a good sig on my book. Is it enough to erase some of his oh-so-nice-words on the past? Probably not. But i certainly, do not hate that chara, like at all, compared to some other charas, he is far more likeable to me.
I found his co-operation with Kallen cool btw, it was a nice combo.

[Levy]

He and Karen were an effective combination, they worked it out pretty well.

Surely, he's still a dumb blonde (to any blonde here, it's a joke, no offense guys, I'm blonde too!! XD) that do not shine in terms of intelligence, and has still a lot of things to learn about human right, respect, other cultures and so on, but, at least to me, his last actions show he's moving forward in a positive way from the person he was before.

... did I ever cared about the Weinberg boy this much...? It didn't notice at first, LOL XD

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Levy

He and Karen were an effective combination, they worked it out pretty well.

Surely, he's still a dumb blonde (to any blonde here, it's a joke, no offense guys, I'm blonde too!! XD) that do not shine in terms of intelligence, and has still a lot of things to learn about human right, respect, other cultures and so on, but, at least to me, his last actions show he's moving forward in a positive way from the person he was before.

... did I ever cared about the Weinberg boy this much...? It didn't notice at first, LOL XD

This. Even if it was an ant-step, it was still a step and i am certainly not gonna be "do not care" about this at all. He left a nice-touch in the end, that according to my likings, moved him from Britannia-typical-whatever to not-that-bad-in-the-end.
[Cornelia or Nina for example, never really did that to me.]

Anyway, is this Gino's thread or something? Maybe we should request a Gino-thread, because seeing how his appearance on the last PD, caused such a ruckus, well that is ought to count for something. 8D

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Levy

Frosty dear (or anyone else, like machin-quote-gun!man-morbos, thanks! :3 ), copypaste me the quote because all I could find in that line browsing the episode was "Lelouch, I do not aknowledge your Britannia!" that is not THAT contraddicting all of this, simply, that he thinks that Lelouch is doing shit, and who could argue this....? Lelouch is doing shit on purpose!

mah subs failed me a couple of times before, I won't be surprised if they did again, still, that's all I could find.

Perhaps I worded it incorrectly, but its not exactly a contradiction completely (it is in part) but his answer to Kallen is more like a "I will fight for what I believe in despite who I have to fight." Which ties into Kallen's having to fight her own heritage, or half of it, in her opposition of Britannia, which is pretty obvious to begin with (so why he said I understand a little, seems to actually be a bit dismissive of what he understands about her, which may explain her odd reply.). But for Gino its in opposition of Suzaku, since Suzaku himself questioned why Gino was not on his side when they were doing such good for the world. Through the course of the ending arc you have Gino opposing "good Britannia" without real justification other than because he disagrees with it. No one went to war with him, he just didn't accept the Britannia that gave everyone equality. Which, to me, just sounds utterly idiotic.

This ties more into Gino's character being a running contradiction, so his contradicting himself isn't surprising. You have in Turn 20, opposing Schneizel for challenging the Emperor and sending Suzaku to assassinate him. At every step of the show, we know that Gino wholeheartedly believes in the Emperor's Britannia. Once the Emperor is dead, Gino, naturally, sides with the old Empire and Bismark's faction. When Suzaku questions his loyalty to the Empire, you have Gino questioning what he is fighting for, but that ends up amounting to nothing because from Turn 21 to Turn 24 he is fighting for the same thing. The Empire in which he believes in, the only difference is that he seems to come to terms with having to fight Suzaku, which he did not in Turn 21's encounter. In Turn 21 he disagrees with Lelouch's Britannia, this is the one that turned Lelouch in the savior of the people. So Gino does not agree with equal opportunity (1). In Turn 24, Lelouch is still the same Emperor that liberated the people, but he has gone to war because the representatives would not allow Britannia fair representation in the UFN, a very viable reason to go to war (2). Lelouch does not go "evil" until after he's conquered the world. So (1) holds true even after Gino has talked with Kallen, meaning that whatever change he's undergone is not a change of ideology but at best a change of "I know what I have to fight for and who I have to fight". If anything, I have to agree with bladeofdarkness that the scene was not about change, seeing as how little changed, but about just cramming in "Here's Gino!"

He amounts to opposing Lelouch and Suzaku only on the grounds that they are not the Britannia he agrees with, twice. His views don't change, nor does his reason for fighting them. Its the same, it just becomes clearer on the second encounter.

As for the quote, morbos also provided that a while back if I recall. Gino is fighting for his Britannia, against Lelouch's everyone-equal Britannia. He gives no other reason for it, and his talk with Kallen doesn't amount to a reason, unless its a very shallow reason. He's not like the Order who are taken into war, he is more like Schneizel, someone fighting for his own ideology.

The triumphantly stupid thing about Gino's position in the war, though, is that he sides with the man who (from Gino's PoV) contributed and initiate the death of the Emperor whom and the Britannia that Gino supported. He's siding with the person who led Britannia to its upheaval, he's siding with a man who does not represent the Britannia he so vocally declares he's fighting for, and there is utterly no explainable way for Gino to have even gotten from Britannia to Japan where the Order was. Though, the bit about Schneizel is probably why Gino is not a part of any organization during the war, it amounts to an alliance of convenience, but his reasoning is lacking.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

http://community.livejournal.com/cod...s/1296345.html
Credit to the respectful owners-chavos.

I was looking at the pic again, and i guess it was pointed it out, but I missed it.

Not the whole gang will be back. Gino is there, but not Anya

[bladeofdarkness]

while i can see her in britannia with orenge-kun
it does raise the question of "does she understand ZERO-R?"

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

The only difference here, between the fictional killers and the historical counterparts, is that the fictional ones are infront of you and you can "familiarize yourself with them" somewhat. That doesn't, however, change who they are. As you said yourself, you tend to ignore the morals while watching the show. You are liking characters based on nothing more than how they appeal to you. Of course the historical figures, which will never appeal to you since no one is going to try to make them appeal to you, would be a distinct disadvantage to garner your liking, no matter how similar they are to their fictional analogies.

That doesn't change the fact that there's something in Gino and Cornelia I find likable.
And since I already agreed that they are not moral, I don't see what we are arguing about. I won't seperate a character's ethical standards from their personality and the "vibe" I get from them, so comparing them to Hitler just doesn't work for me.
I never claimed Gino was some kind of super awesome teddy bear, though.

A lot of stuff that people did? You mean one single person.

Uhm... no. I was also talking about a lot of other things, like people wanting to save economy through killing off "liablities" And if I compare those speeches and textes to Charles' ones, then I know which I prefer.
Charles at least admitted that he was a bastard.

And you didn't find the speeches Charles gave disgusting? They are darwinistic fascism which is, pretty much to a T, what Hitler did with the Arian ideologies he spewed.

Honestly?
I wouldn't have minded Charles' speeches all that much if he had been a bit less of a bastard. He had some interesting points.
But he did ruin Clovis' funeral... xD

Um... you're basing this on what, exactly? He killed disabled for the exact same reason, to unify the nation. That was under the pretense of strength through unity of the perfect race. His success in unifying Germany is evidant in just how far his warmachine went.

I'd guess that he believed in it like most people at that time (yes, even before Hitler), and that it wasn't just propaganda.
But could we please drop that Hitler topic now?


Oh, and I agree with my awesome soulmate and a certain non-huggable person I will definitely glomp one day when they least expect it.
Yes, sky, there is no escape! xD

I won't go into this, though, because the Gino discussuion is starting to bore me. I want Clovis, damnit! xD

[bladeofdarkness]

would people please drop the hitler bit already
comparing real life monsters to fictonal characters does nothing but erode the true meaning of what actually happened and is insulting to real life victems

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

That doesn't change the fact that there's something in Gino and Cornelia I find likable.
And since I already agreed that they are not moral, I don't see what we are arguing about. I won't seperate a character's ethical standards from their personality and the "vibe" I get from them, so comparing them to Hitler just doesn't work for me.
I never claimed Gino was some kind of super awesome teddy bear, though.

Someone from the past can say they found something likable about the asshats that killed thousands, Andrew Jackson, as an example, President of the United States, does that change the fact that they are "bad" people? I am glad we agree on amorality, but that stopped being the point a while ago, I am trying to get to the fact that even if you like them, you can't use that as a justification for the types of asshats they were nor can you say that just because they "show human qualities" that appeal to you, that they should have survived or that they will ever change their views. People are inert, they more than usually stick with one view.

Never said you claimed it, remember this was about how people treat him in general as some well to do nice-guy, when he is not.

Originally Posted by nogi

Uhm... no. I was also talking about a lot of other things, like people wanting to save economy through killing off "liablities" And if I compare those speeches and textes to Charles' ones, then I know which I prefer.
Charles at least admitted that he was a bastard.

Charles never public admitted he was a bastard, he spewed his garbage on to the people to propagate the shit he didn't even believe in. He told his people to kill off the inferior people, to use them as stepping stones, to further their society. Its hardly different from "kill the 'liabilities' to save the whole'.

Originally Posted by nogi

Honestly?
I wouldn't have minded Charles' speeches all that much if he had been a bit less of a bastard. He had some interesting points.
But he did ruin Clovis' funeral... xD

O-o
You don't mind Darwinistic Fascism? ... How exactly did you mind Hitler's identical philosophy?

I am confused.

Originally Posted by nogi

I'd guess that he believed in it like most people at that time (yes, even before Hitler), and that it wasn't just propaganda.
But could we please drop that Hitler topic now?

Who said anything about propaganda?

The hitler topic is getting boring, but its also reaching its end.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

while i can see her in britannia with orenge-kun
it does raise the question of "does she understand ZERO-R?"

Well, IIRC, it was said that Cecile, Llyod, Jeremiah and C.C. will be talking in the PD8 and that it is the night before the start of the ZR, no? It would imply that cecile and Lloyd knew about the ZR too. Nina knew it too i think. I think she accepted to help lelouch because he explained his plan to her.

About Anya, I don't think she knows the truth ?_?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Someone from the past can say they found something likable about the asshats that killed thousands, Andrew Jackson, as an example, President of the United States, does that change the fact that they are "bad" people? I am glad we agree on amorality, but that stopped being the point a while ago, I am trying to get to the fact that even if you like them, you can't use that as a justification for the types of asshats they were nor can you say that just because they "show human qualities" that appeal to you, that they should have survived or that they will ever change their views. People are inert, they more than usually stick with one view.

Never said you claimed it, remember this was about how people treat him in general as some well to do nice-guy, when he is not.

But since I never was and never will be into this "deserving punishment" thing, this won't get us anywhere as long as I feel that the staff intended Gino to change after joining forces with the Black Knights.
There's absolutely nothing that indicates otherwiese, except your personal perception of him the fact that R2 was rushed. And I doubt we will see him planning to kill Elevens and restoring Britannia to its old glory in the last PD.

Charles never public admitted he was a bastard, he spewed his garbage on to the people to propagate the shit he didn't even believe in. He told his people to kill off the inferior people, to use them as stepping stones, to further their society. Its hardly different from "kill the 'liabilities' to save the whole'.

Anyone who missed that Charles was a bastard simply didn't want to see it. He was never shown to put much effort into appearing to be anything else.

O-o
You don't mind Darwinistic Fascism? ... How exactly did you mind Hitler's identical philosophy?

I am confused.

I don't mind some varations of Darwinism, and I don't mind people stating their personal opinion, like "people are not born equal".
I do, however, mind people being bastards, and fictional characters being complete bastards.

Who said anything about propaganda?

Hm... I thought that was what was originally said here about those killings. But maybe my memory is playing trick on me.

The hitler topic is getting boring, but its also reaching its end.

Glad to hear that. xD

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

But since I never was and never will be into this "deserving punishment" thing, this won't get us anywhere as long as I feel that the staff intended Gino to change after joining forces with the Black Knights.
There's absolutely nothing that indicates otherwiese, except your personal perception of him the fact that R2 was rushed. And I doubt we will see him planning to kill Elevens and restoring Britannia to its old glory in the last PD.

I didn't say anything about deserving, I am more on about arbitrary acceptance of survival. As I said, nothing specifically distinguishes some of the people who died from those who lived other than fanservice and character appeal.

Nothing in particular separates Cornelia from, say to tickle your fancy, Clovis, but one died and not the other. Hell, Cornelia is imo a far worse person than Clovis but Clovis was used as a plot device and had no real fans. Nothing really justifies Cornelia's shown "golden road of happiness" in the ending, hell she never showed even the slightest flicker of change.

PS: Joining forces and actually siding with a people is completely different. Gino's allegiances were out of convenience, nothing says he joined the Order, and no explanation could be made to even remotely let the Order take him in. Joining forces out of necessity doesn't make much of a point. Like I pointed out in the post to Levy, Gino's not actually shown changing his views from before and during the war.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Anyone who missed that Charles was a bastard simply didn't want to see it. He was never shown to put much effort into appearing to be anything else.

I can say the same for any douche in history who preached the same nonsense as Charles. People from outside of the "believers" would have easily dismissed them as bastards.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I don't mind some varations of Darwinism, and I don't mind people stating their personal opinion, like "people are not born equal".
I do, however, mind people being bastards, and fictional characters being complete bastards.

This is Darwinistic Fascism, its a variation of Fascism, not Darwinism. You really need to sit down and read George Orwell's books to get a good idea of why Fascism, and even Darwinism, are not good things.

Being a complete bastard, as you've served to prove my point, entirely depends on how much the character appeals to you. To me, Cornelia, Gino, and most of the higher echelon of Britannia, all come off as complete bastards. To you they do not, however. This is a completely arbitrary basis. There's no concrete basis for the end results, its all about "i think this" but the "i think this" varies in applicable actuality from case to case. For example the bit about change, what change did Cornelia undergo? "I must avenge Euphie to... I must make Lelouch pay for Euphie." Nothing showed that she dropped her views on anything. What views did Gino change? I don't remember him ever taking back his "elevens are inferior" words to Kallen. Nor do I remember him changing his reasons for fighting. Viletta, for once can be used positively, as she actually showed change.

[FruitsPunchSamurai]

Originally Posted by Narona

Well, IIRC, it was said that Cecile, Llyod, Jeremiah and C.C. will be talking in the PD8 and that it is the night before the start of the ZR, no? It would imply that cecile and Lloyd knew about the ZR too. Nina knew it too i think. I think she accepted to help lelouch because he explained his plan to her.

About Anya, I don't think she knows the truth ?_?

Anya was with Schienzel and like Gino didn't agree with Lelouch's Britannia so I doubt she'll attend since she hold no ties towards Lelouch or any of the student council, however if PD 12.31 holds any relevance she might attend because Nunnally is there plus she also has Arthur with her so more or less I'm hoping for a reunion between him and Zerozaku. But is as I feared the most with her and Gino being there for some apparent reason other than to be profound on their own ignorance of the situation compared to the others who knew Lelouch for who he was.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

I didn't say anything about deserving, I am more on about arbitrary acceptance of survival. As I said, nothing specifically distinguishes some of the people who died from those who lived other than fanservice and character appeal.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I simply don't have a problem with that.

Nothing in particular separates Cornelia from, say to tickle your fancy, Clovis, but one died and not the other. Hell, Cornelia is imo a far worse person than Clovis but Clovis was used as a plot device and had no real fans. Nothing really justifies Cornelia's shown "golden road of happiness" in the ending, hell she never showed even the slightest flicker of change.

Clovis does have some real fans now. xD
Anyway... yes, he died in order to show in a very impressive way that Lelouch is not above dirtying his own hands in order to achieve his goals.
I don't mind that. It was an awesome, ironic kind of death, and I don't see any real alternative. If Clovis had lived, then Lelouch probably would have had a lot less problems - simply because he had such an awesome big brother.
Freeing Japan through force? Whatever for?
Just go conspire with Clovis!

PS: Joining forces and actually siding with a people is completely different. Gino's allegiances were out of convenience, nothing says he joined the Order, and no explanation could be made to even remotely let the Order take him in. Joining forces out of necessity doesn't make much of a point. Like I pointed out in the post to Levy, Gino's not actually shown changing his views from before and during the war.

That may be true, but this is fiction, and if the staff intended to show Gino as someone who will never manage to be part of a peaceful world, then they did an exceptionally poor job at it.

This is Darwinistic Fascism, its a variation of Fascism, not Darwinism. You really need to sit down and read George Orwell's books to get a good idea of why Fascism, and even Darwinism, are not good things.

You can consider a lot of things variations of Darwinism - inluding modern Satanism, which I, personally, find quite interesting.

Being a complete bastard, as you've served to prove my point, entirely depends on how much the character appeals to you. To me, Cornelia, Gino, and most of the higher echelon of Britannia, all come off as complete bastards. To you they do not, however. This is a completely arbitrary basis.

Or maybe a complete bastard, by my definition, has about as many "redeeming qualities" as Luciano or Voldemort.

[bladeofdarkness]

anya now lives with jeremia
the guy who was one of lelouch's biggest supporters
you wouldnt expect her to do that if she didnt already know about the truth

[FruitsPunchSamurai]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

anya now lives with jeremia
the guy who was one of lelouch's biggest supporters
you wouldnt expect her to do that if she didnt already know about the truth

The question is why would Jeremiah bring up a topic such as that and further more why should she care? Doubtful that Jeremiah would even tell since it's a secret that he'll more or less keep to his grave. And no offense but it hasn't been confirmed that anyone sans Suzaku, Nunnally, Jeremiah, Sayoko, Cecile, Lloyd and to a lesser extent Kallen and Todouh knew Lelouch's plan and further more even if they did know It's likely that they don't care and what to live on their happy lives.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I don't necessarily disagree, but I simply don't have a problem with that.

I do, quite evidently. Especially, when people try to pass it off as justifiable.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

That may be true, but this is fiction, and if the staff intended to show Gino as someone who will never manage to be part of a peaceful world, then they did an exceptionally poor job at it.

The did an extremely poor job at the reverse as well. So which one is right?

In my opinion, the most correct answer is: they stopped caring when they made the final arc and they just crammed in everything they could in a desperate attempt to finish. They could have, very easily, just finished CG at the Charles arc, have all three of them die there, and end the show with the Order and the UFN formed and Britannia in shambles. You don't make Lucifer the second to last boss, only to have the last boss be a quadruple amputee.

How about we go with the: they had no idea what they were doing with most characters they introduced in R2.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

You can consider a lot of things variations of Darwinism - inluding modern Satanism, which I, personally, find quite interesting.

By that logic everything is a variation of the ideology of survival.

Finding something interesting, and finding something likable are very different things.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Or maybe a complete bastard, by my definition, has about as many "redeeming qualities" as Luciano or Voldemort.

But the point is you find "redeeming qualities" in these characters, while I do not. I find nothing redeeming in Cornelia because being badass is not a redeeming quality. The same for Gino, because being an ignorant asshat is also not a redeeming quality. Everything is based on perception.

Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai

The question is why would Jeremiah bring up a topic such as that and further more why should she care? Doubtful that Jeremiah would even tell since it's a secret that he'll more or less keep to his grave. And no offense but it hasn't been confirmed that anyone sans Suzaku, Nunnally, Jeremiah, Sayoko, Cecile, Lloyd and to a lesser extent Kallen and Todouh knew Lelouch's plan and further more even if they did know It's likely that they don't care and what to live on their happy lives.

The only confirmed people to know are: Nunally, Kallen, Suzaku, C.C., and probably Jeremiah. The rest are on the "possibly know some details", but only the aforementioned know the whole thing.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

I do, quite evidently. Especially, when people try to pass it off as justifiable.

I always thought justifications for things connected to fictional characters were overrated anyway. xD

The did an extremely poor job at the reverse as well. So which one is right?

In my opinion, the most correct answer is: they stopped caring when they made the final arc and they just crammed in everything they could in a desperate attempt to finish. They could have, very easily, just finished CG at the Charles arc, have all three of them die there, and end the show with the Order and the UFN formed and Britannia in shambles. You don't make Lucifer the second to last boss, only to have the last boss be a quadruple amputee.

How about we go with the: they had no idea what they were doing with most characters they introduced in R2.

I agree that R2 was far from perfect, but I'll clinge to my hope that the staff at least had some idea of what they were doing and just didn't bother to make it all that believable.

By that logic everything is a variation of the ideology of survival.

Hm... as I understood it, modern Satanism is more or less based on Darwinism.
I only know the basics of Darwinism, though, so I merely know what people tell me here. xD

Finding something interesting, and finding something likable are very different things.

In this case, it's the same. I find modern Satanism both interesting and likable.

But the point is you find "redeeming qualities" in these characters, while I do not. I find nothing redeeming in Cornelia because being badass is not a redeeming quality. The same for Gino, because being an ignorant asshat is also not a redeeming quality. Everything is based on perception.

Which is why we could talk about this forever and ever without getting anywhere. xD
I only require a character not to be boring in order to like them at least somewhat. If a chacracter is simply "evil", however, that's not given, and I'll move on.

[FruitsPunchSamurai]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

The only confirmed people to know are: Nunally, Kallen, Suzaku, C.C., and probably Jeremiah. The rest are on the "possibly know some details", but only the aforementioned know the whole thing.

I would think that the people involve would at least know what he was trying to do especially Jeremiah, also thanks for adding C.C.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I always thought justifications for things connected to fictional characters were overrated anyway. xD

You need some of it, or we get to what started this whole mess to begin with.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I agree that R2 was far from perfect, but I'll clinge to my hope that the staff at least had some idea of what they were doing and just didn't bother to make it all that believable.

I am not that believing. The last arc was just handled far to poorly for me to believe that they actually tried. I think they did it to just finish off the god-awful mess they started, even though it would have made more sense to just end it with Charles' death. The show lost any real reason after that because Charles was the driving build up in the show. Lelouch dying could have, and was, handled well in one episode. There was no reason to even introduce the Damocles (out of nowhere) or the entire ending arc barring the very ending of that arc.

Guilford's sacrifice loses all meaning, Cornelia becomes a "wtf" character. Nunally gets derailed into the oblivion of idiocy. Characters stop making sense in general. The last arc was undoubtedly the worst part of the show.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Which is why we could talk about this forever and ever without getting anywhere. xD
I only require a character not to be boring in order to like them at least somewhat. If a chacracter is simply "evil", however, that's not given, and I'll move on.

/shrug

Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai

I would think that the people involve would at least know what he was trying to do especially Jeremiah, also thanks for adding C.C.

I am going by what Okouchi confirmed. That amounts to Nunally, Kallen, Suzaku, C.C., though Jeremiah isn't listed, I assumed he was just a minor character to include. The rest are left with "figured some stuff out but not all of it".