GrimGrimoire

[Tommy]

Kinda weird with how much love Odin Spheres getting that no ones talking about this game which was also made by Vannilaware and published by NIS.

The artwork is pretty good in the cutscenes, not quite as amazing as Odin Sphere but still great. The in game graphics are kinda meh though, especially with the repetitive backgrounds. The english VA is good enough to listen to, much like Odin Sphere I haven't had any desire to switch to Japanese.

The gameplay itself is rather interesting it's a 2D sidescrolling RTS game. Not much like it. So far it's been pretty fun but their has been some annoyances, Like not being able to select all units, you can only select one kind of character at a time.

The Story has been pretty interesting so far as well it's kinda like Harry Potter I suppose, I've never seen or read Harry Potter but I know he goes to a magic academy like our main character in this game.



Shot at 2007-07-12

[Tommy]

A couple of screens and wall papers.

In game.

Shot at 2007-07-12

Spoiler for wallpapers:

[deathcurse]

I really want to play the game too, but I don't have a gaming system . The videos for the animated days are on YouTube though .

Fanfiction.net page for GrimGrimoire!

[Vexx]

Looks cute, great outfits ... but yeah, I really don't do gaming console systems much.

[GHDpro]

I have it... but still in shrinkwrap (Same goes for Odin Sphere btw)

Really though... if you want to play it you're not going to get around buying a PS2. Including the game itself that shouldn't be such a big expense these days... you can probably get PS2+game+memory card for less than $150 (or even cheaper if you get a used PS2).

[jedinat]

I like what I saw of the story portion of the game (okay I only picked it up in the first place because I read about the yuri, lol) but the gameplay is so utterly boring that I didn't get many chapters into it. If anyone is interested, the game works quite perfectly on the PC...

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by GHDpro

I have it... but still in shrinkwrap (Same goes for Odin Sphere btw)

Really though... if you want to play it you're not going to get around buying a PS2. Including the game itself that shouldn't be such a big expense these days... you can probably get PS2+game+memory card for less than $150 (or even cheaper if you get a used PS2).

you should smack yourself for not playing Odin Sphere by now

[Shiroth]

Odin Sphere is easily in my top 05 list of best games i've ever played, so to hear that GHDpro still has it shrinkwrapped makes me .

GrimGrimoire is also a great game. The story is pretty damn interesting and always has you make wanted more, plus the gameplay can make for hours of fun. Especially when it comes to replaying the game on a harder difficulty.

[DezoPenguin]

Personally I preferred the characters of GrimGrimoire to Odin Sphere's; I think the small-scale, "closed environment" of the story allowed them to develop better, while the epic scale of Odin Sphere's story maintains some narrative distance between characters and player. That said, they're both so generally awesome for story and characters that it's like deciding whether you'd rather have someone give you $1,000,000 or $1,000,007.

On the other hand, I preferred Odin Sphere's gameplay--I'm not an RTS player, so while GG was fun, it was well outside my comfort zone.

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Personally I preferred the characters of GrimGrimoire to Odin Sphere's; I think the small-scale, "closed environment" of the story allowed them to develop better, while the epic scale of Odin Sphere's story maintains some narrative distance between characters and player. That said, they're both so generally awesome for story and characters that it's like deciding whether you'd rather have someone give you $1,000,000 or $1,000,007.

On the other hand, I preferred Odin Sphere's gameplay--I'm not an RTS player, so while GG was fun, it was well outside my comfort zone.

I agree with all of the above except for the last small paragraph! I'm an RTS fan (not necessarily by choice, but I still love the genre), so GrimGrimoire was an awesome game in that respect. Especially when you get to later battles when you can improve your Runes to the max to make your units stronger! RTS also teaches the player about resource management, so I tend to favor it somewhat because of this.

[Laith]

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Personally I preferred the characters of GrimGrimoire to Odin Sphere's; I think the small-scale, "closed environment" of the story allowed them to develop better, while the epic scale of Odin Sphere's story maintains some narrative distance between characters and player. That said, they're both so generally awesome for story and characters that it's like deciding whether you'd rather have someone give you $1,000,000 or $1,000,007.

On the other hand, I preferred Odin Sphere's gameplay--I'm not an RTS player, so while GG was fun, it was well outside my comfort zone.

Then play Muramasa, a character driven story with an altered version of Odin Sphere´s gameplay. You know the other Vanillaware game

/Muramasa promoting

I actually expected GrimGrimoire to be an average game at best and was actually impressed that it had excellent graphics, a good storlyine (Goddman it Lujei, goddamnt it1) and a fun gameplay. And i only hate one thing of it. The mission where you can only use Alchemy... hahahaha... haha...ha...ha... *sigh*

1 Having played Soul Nomad & Phantom Brave makes me really love and hate Lujei

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by Laith

I actually expected GrimGrimoire to be an average game at best and was actually impressed that it had excellent graphics, a good storlyine (Goddman it Lujei, goddamnt it1) and a fun gameplay. And i only hate one thing of it. The mission where you can only use Alchemy... hahahaha... haha...ha...ha... *sigh*

1 Having played Soul Nomad & Phantom Brave makes me really love and hate Lujei

But... but... but... that's what made the whole thing fun! It was the restriction of having access only to Alchemy that made the entire thing challenging!
Yes, I like taking on challenges like that. It's almost as if it was a dare, as if the game was saying "are you good enough to beat this?"

Oh, speaking of Lujei and Soul Nomad & Phantom Brave, ever since I found out that she was in there (SN & PB), I've wondered if that's the world were Lujei ran off to after the Epilogue? Would make sense.

[Laith]

Originally Posted by Fuyu no Sora

But... but... but... that's what made the whole thing fun! It was the restriction of having access only to Alchemy that made the entire thing challenging!
Yes, I like taking on challenges like that. It's almost as if it was a dare, as if the game was saying "are you good enough to beat this?"

I didn´t mind the stage per se, but the last 5 minutes were freaking hell. I mean it is perfectly fair to defend against it and the units you have are not pushovers and then

Spoiler for ...:

hey three dragons to make you dust, have fun!!!

Oh, speaking of Lujei and Soul Nomad & Phantom Brave, ever since I found out that she was in there (SN & PB), I've wondered if that's the world were Lujei ran off to after the Epilogue? Would make sense.

First PB and SN are separate worlds/universes whatever. Lujei ended up in Soul Nomad but and let me spoil this

Spoiler for Phantom Brave:

She resurrects the big bad of the game and the remaining heroes kill him but remain paranoic ´cause they think he will return (hint: he doesn´t)

Spoiler for Soul Nomad:

She arrives after Grim Grimoire and revives the character who sacrified himself and spoils for him that she revived and whoopsie~~ And then you get one of the most badass characters of Soul Nomad. And Lujei is a "secret" character who can join you.

...God damn you Lujei can you avoid being an evil sorceress and just be a yandere crazy awesome sorceress.

[DezoPenguin]

Originally Posted by Laith

I didn´t mind the stage per se, but the last 5 minutes were freaking hell. I mean it is perfectly fair to defend against it and the units you have are not pushovers and then

Spoiler for ...:

hey three dragons to make you dust, have fun!!!

Spoiler for Gameplay chatter:

Oh, God, yes. That's one of those where you have to get the Chimera out in time and with enough health. That whole battle had me going I need my Phantoms!!! the whole way through.

(Though to be fair, the one I really hate is IV/5-2, where you get to fight Chartreuse; I actually find it more of a pain than Calvaros on IV/4-2, because I keep getting lured into thinking that I can hold the homunculi off with dragons while my astral units rip up the gargoyles and golems...and I'm always wrong. It's like...with Calvaros I fight with delaying tactics and play out the thirty minutes without ever getting in too much trouble, but Chartreuse always lures me into fighting to win and I overextend myself unless I just bury him in dragons.)

...God damn you Lujei can you avoid being an evil sorceress and just be a yandere crazy awesome sorceress.

The funny thing is, I watched that Soul Nomad scene on Youtube and, well, I actually think she's more "evil" in GrimGrimoire (as opposed to "totally guano crazy"). If nothing else, it's because she's not quite all there in SN, so things like how she screwed with Phantom Brave seem to be more because she was just having fun being crazy instead of actively doing nasty things. Though on the other hand, it at least gave her skull on a stick a name!

Lujei...outright Chaotic Evil or just Chaotic Neutral with evil tendencies?

[Laith]

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Spoiler for Gameplay chatter:

Oh, God, yes. That's one of those where you have to get the Chimera out in time and with enough health. That whole battle had me going I need my Phantoms!!! the whole way through.

(Though to be fair, the one I really hate is IV/5-2, where you get to fight Chartreuse; I actually find it more of a pain than Calvaros on IV/4-2, because I keep getting lured into thinking that I can hold the homunculi off with dragons while my astral units rip up the gargoyles and golems...and I'm always wrong. It's like...with Calvaros I fight with delaying tactics and play out the thirty minutes without ever getting in too much trouble, but Chartreuse always lures me into fighting to win and I overextend myself unless I just bury him in dragons.)

Spoiler for Actually:

IV/4-2 is when you fight Chartreuse and IV/5-2 is when you fight Calvaros. And yeah the fact that homunculus kills all the phantoms like flies is why the strategy for every scenario that has alchemy is: Get 1 or 2 Dragons ASAP and proceed to burn everything with the phantoms as support. Or Zerg Rush but eeeh. Though the Calvaros one is a little bit harder for me because you have to protect Margarita and he always targets her so i try to protect her and then demons out of nowhere in my runes. Not fun.

The funny thing is, I watched that Soul Nomad scene on Youtube and, well, I actually think she's more "evil" in GrimGrimoire (as opposed to "totally guano crazy"). If nothing else, it's because she's not quite all there in SN, so things like how she screwed with Phantom Brave seem to be more because she was just having fun being crazy instead of actively doing nasty things. Though on the other hand, it at least gave her skull on a stick a name!

Lujei...outright Chaotic Evil or just Chaotic Neutral with evil tendencies?

Considering that she is not evil per se, more like out of touch with reality by really really far i will say that she is Chaotic Mad and leave it like that. Though the fact that she is Yandere makes me love her

Now, let me love you like I used to~~ *Shudders*

[deathcurse]

I have a slightly more philosophical question about the storyline .

Spoiler for Spoiler for those who haven't played the game:

In the scene "Outside the Loops of Time", we find out that a version of Lillet is trapped inside the Philosopher's Stone room while another Lillet gets sent back to go through the loops again.

So my question is, the first time Lillet reaches that final room and fails to break the stone, who is the Lillet that got sent back into the loops? Right then, there are two Lillets (one in the room and one who got sent back in time). So where did this second Lillet sprout from? And who is the real Lillet then?

That's not even asking where all the other Lillets came from , as we see in that scene that there have been at least 3 Lillets inside that room.

I touched on the idea in a fanfic of mine Dark Room, but I never really got around to answering the question myself, so I thought I'd ask here .

So, any thoughts from people?

[Laith]

Originally Posted by deathcurse

I have a slightly more philosophical question about the storyline .

And I may not have a clear answer for it, but I can try.

Spoiler for Spoiler for those who haven't played the game:

In the scene "Outside the Loops of Time", we find out that a version of Lillet is trapped inside the Philosopher's Stone room while another Lillet gets sent back to go through the loops again.

So my question is, the first time Lillet reaches that final room and fails to break the stone, who is the Lillet that got sent back into the loops? Right then, there are two Lillets (one in the room and one who got sent back in time). So where did this second Lillet sprout from? And who is the real Lillet then?

Spoiler for Existential Answer:

When Lillet (original) reachs the first time the Stone, probably because she suffered the same things that Lillet (the one we know) suffered, she realizes that she can´t break it and expects to be returned to the point in time when she starts, however something happens, maybe the Stone reacts badly at the attempted destruction or somesuch and the loop starts again, however Lillet (original) doesn´t restart it but a Lillet that is a perfect copy of her, except from her memories. The second Lillet exists because the first one can´t restart the loop, and there has to be a Lillet so the time can be properly restarted... It´s confusing.

Spoiler:

That's not even asking where all the other Lillets came from , as we see in that scene that there have been at least 3 Lillets inside that room.

Spoiler for More Answer(s):

There are only two Lillets at a given time so it is safe to assume that is predecesor and sucesor of the loop. However she is given a stational moment on time and not immortality so each Lillet dies after sometime passes. So the one that is there is the one that came before the new one, but slightly older. (This is curious because the Lillet that the game uses only started the loop and the one inside the Stone room is older by much but eeh).

I touched on the idea in a fanfic of mine Dark Room, but I never really got around to answering the question myself, so I thought I'd ask here .

Hey reading material, will read that later.

So, any thoughts from people?

It´s a good thing is not a Stable Time Loop or it would be more confusing.

[DezoPenguin]

This is what happens when I think too much...and take showers...and start replaying the game...

Anyway, I was running through the whole quirky lot of 'em in my head last night, and came up with the following ideas for everybody's alignment:

Spoiler for Discussion contains spoilers in looking at plot points:

Lillet: Neutral Good. The "good" part is pretty obvious, as she goes out of her way to try to save everybody except Grimlet, Surely, and Calvaros, and she's got the whole "forgiving" thing down to a T, not only with people who do wrong (eg. Margarita), but also those who make nasty errors in past lives (say, Ms. Opalneria for trying to sacrifice Amoretta in Loop IV). On the other hand, she freely violates school rules and the government's law (she openly conceals the fact that Bartido is a spy from an "enemy nation" as well as Margarita's traitorious activities) all over the place.

Hiram: Lawful Good. Hiram tends to be upright, honest, suspicious of evil, sincere in his affections, and strongly respects the rules (see Loop III, though there's some "in love with Opalneria" factored in there as well).

Margarita: Chaotic Good. Margarita is basically a nice person, to wit her kindness towards Lillet right from the start and her refusal to kill Lillet and Hiram in Loop II when she had the chance and it would have preserved her secret. But at the same time she's involved in a plot to restore the Archmage, which is most definitely not the act of someone interested in law and order, she breaks her word to Lillet and steals the soul container in Loop IV, and in the Epilogue rather than work with the authorities she goes off fighting her old allies on her own.

Amoretta: Lawful Good. Angel. Next question.

Advocat: Lawful Evil. Devil. Next question. Seriously--Advocat's portrayal is actually one of the better Lawful Evils out there. He always tells the truth...if in a way that suits his motives. He's honorably bound by his contracts, and although while he'll certainly try to work around them will follow them (see, eg. IV/1-3 when he gets caught by Gammel).

Gammel: Lawful Good. While taking responsibility for the Philosopher's Stone disaster, being a kind headmaster, and protecting his students when need be, Gammel also shows submission to lawful authority in a number of ways, including hunting for the Philosopher's Stone on their behalf and kicking out Bartido when he finds out Bartido is a spy (see Epilogue).

Now, the others I'm not so sure about...

Bartido I suspect would be Chaotic Good. Most of the "spy" classes tend towards chaotic alignments, given the necessity for the spy to lie and sneak even though they may be very loyal and honorable to their actual cause/employer/nationality. His reckless hotheadedness tends to confirm this, although "reckless" doesn't necessarily mean "chaotic"; his willingness to sell his soul to Advocat to save Lillet certainly indicates his ability to engage in self-sacrificial (i.e. "Good") behavior; he also sticks up for Hiram and Amoretta with Ms. Opalneria in IV/2-3.

Dr. Chartreuse: I see him as Lawful, given that the very laws of the universe are his special field of study, and also given that he's put aside nearly everything emotional for the dedication of his intellect. But while he is very harsh on devils (both in his "devils are the root of every evil" speech when he meets Lillet face-to-face for the first time in II and more openly in IV/4-2 when he comes down on Lillet for her use of the Lemegeton with force), his shortsightedness in the creation of his "ultimate homunculi" (especially the concept of using an angel as a component in a magical experiment!) doesn't seem particularly "Good" to me...although similarly to Bartido, that may be more of a case of his emotional stuntedness than an actual LN alignment...

Lujei: Discussed above. Very, very chaotic--and as Laith points out, very, very crazy. Capable of being nice (such as when she helps Lillet). Capable of being very, very nasty (getting revenge on her lover by killing him and imprisoning his soul as her plaything forever; claiming students who wander out too late as "victims"; playing games with Opalneria's life by deliberately withholding the dangers of her magic; cursing Chartreuse into beast form for not giving in to her seductions; screwing with Opalneria's mind so she'll keep pursuing Chartreuse just for the sake of annoying him). I tend to see her as Chaotic Evil, but as Laith pointed out, it's also entirely possible that she's really too crazy to judge the consequences of her actions on a moral sense (honestly, I'd easily buy into that in her Soul Nomad portrayal).

Opalneria: And here I am completely confused. On the one hand, she's very righteous and rejecting of devils and other supernatural evil. On the other hand, she's quite capable of trashing Chartreuse's lab in a juvenile "Look at me! Look at me!" attention-grab more suitable for a 12-year-old than somebody whose age is in the triple digits. Her emotions seem to run her completely, for good or for evil...

[Laith]

My Alignment discussion may be different to the norm. Shin Megami Tensei games tend to make you lose perception of normal alignments.

Spoiler for 'ere we go, 'ere we go.:

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Lillet:

No problems here.

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Hiram:

Agreed and as an aside, I will always remember Hiram as the weakest character of the game.

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Margarita:

Eeeh I dunno about her, I mean she is kind of a bad guy and she is kind of selfish (Whoops the archmage is free, gotta fly) so she is not really good. On the other hand there is no other alignment that fits her so...

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Amoretta:

She does start as True Neutral though.

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Advocat:

Yep, he is also the third best character of the game.

"Oh did Gammeldore discovered our deal Lillet Blan?"

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Gammel:

Yep, yep.

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Bartido

Eeeeh he is more neutral good as he is concerned about the tower. Sure he was a spy but he respected the other rules. Also he is always with the most lawful professor, except for Loop III when he is the sidekick I believe, so there is that too.

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Dr. Chartreuse:

Lujei:

These two are the representation of the lawful and chaos side of the Post apocalyptic TokioVortex WorldTower. One is only worried about the science, the law, to a point that he forgets the emotional side of things ('Till the epilogue at least). The other is Kind of COMPLETELY NUTS2. As in, a normal human can't understand what she is thinking. She does things for her amusement so she should be Chaotic Evil but she doesn't do it with malice (...most of the time) so she can't be evil.

And that's all I am saying 'cause I really love her and could rant about her all day, every day.1

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Opalneria:

She tries to be Lawful Neutral, in that rules>everything else, the thing with Hiram gives you a clue, but she is so loving useless that she can't be measured correctly. Isn't it sad, Opalneria?

1. Hell hath no fury... in-loving-deed.
2. And I still like Lillet more because of the whole deal at V-4-2.

[DezoPenguin]

Originally Posted by Laith

My Alignment discussion may be different to the norm. Shin Megami Tensei games tend to make you lose perception of normal alignments.

Spoiler for Still spoilery!:

You know, technically, any discussion of Lujei's very existence qualifies as a spoiler, especially with details of her personality...

Agreed and as an aside, I will always remember Hiram as the weakest character of the game.

Weak in terms of his moral character, weak in terms of his actual abilities in physical and magical combat, or weak on a metastory level in that he's kind of a bland guy with little character development?

She does start as True Neutral though.

Well, when she woke up she was pretty much a blank slate...I suspect that her core behavior patterns were already set, though; she just needed to learn what to apply them to.

Yep, he is also the third best character of the game.

Lillet and Lujei being the first two?

[quote]Eeeeh he is more neutral good as he is concerned about the tower. Sure he was a spy but he respected the other rules. Also he is always with the most lawful professor, except for Loop III when he is the sidekick I believe, so there is that too. [quote]

Point. Although it's his behavior as sidekick (you're right, it's Loop III) that makes me wonder--he throws in whole-hog behind Lillet, helping her steal the soul container, then punching out Opalneria and Hiram--whatever else is going on, he shows in that loop that he's willing to do anything for his love-at-first-sight.

These two are the representation of the lawful and chaos side of the Post apocalyptic TokioVortex WorldTower. One is only worried about the science, the law, to a point that he forgets the emotional side of things ('Till the epilogue at least). The other is Kind of COMPLETELY NUTS2. As in, a normal human can't understand what she is thinking. She does things for her amusement so she should be Chaotic Evil but she doesn't do it with malice (...most of the time) so she can't be evil.

And that's all I am saying 'cause I really love her and could rant about her all day, every day.1

Heh, Lujei is definitely awesome. She only has two scenes and she can barely get through a line without being hilarious, creepy-as-heck, or often both.

She tries to be Lawful Neutral, in that rules>everything else, the thing with Hiram gives you a clue, but she is so loving useless that she can't be measured correctly. Isn't it sad, Opalneria?

The thing with Hiram? I thought she was just following Lujei's orders because she trusted her completely...which really doesn't imply a lot of good judgment. I'm almost inclined to dump her into True Neutral because her emotions yank her around almost as chaotically as Lujei's do her, but unlike Lujei she does, as you note, profess an ethos that she tries (and fails) to keep up with.