[Manga] Naruto Chapter 541 Discussion

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by DeDe

I don't think Shikaku's logic was falling apart. Ao and Inoicihi were panicking and he calmed himself down so he could think logically. Seems pretty smart to me. We have to see what he came up with.

He might come up with something, but then Madara or Kabuto come up with even more troublesome tricks. And in the end Shikaku won't be able to handle this, there are just too many unknown factors to make a good plan, also Shikaku is losing more and more chess pieces, so with less cards in his hands he can't play as well as in the beginning. When even the smartest guy begins to panic we can assume that the situation is really bad.

What i don't like in this war so far is that Kishimoto completely failed to show the transition from success to the crysis. We read the manga chapters and complained how easy it is for the alliance to beat Madara and Kabuto. But then suddenly from nowhere Kishimoto just states that half of the alliance is dead, that was a major OMFG moment. Sure Kabuto's zombie attacks were getting more and more dangerous, the last one with Kinkaku+Ginkaku was really hard to win for the alliance, but they won it, and it seemed that the alliance always wins. Let's hope that the anime fills the gaps and gives a more realistic transition to this crysis in the night.

Originally Posted by DeDe

Funny thing is that Shikaku uses both faith and logic. He showed faith in Naruto when he let him go talk with Nagato. Logically, that was the wrong move, but he believed in what Shikamaru said about Naruto. He had faith.

But now the theme of the story is that the alliance army sticks to the plan, no improvisations or faith in Naruto. In the Pain vs Konoha war both Tsunade and Shikaku had faith in Naruto, but now as we see Tsunade sticks to the plan, so we can expect the same from Shikaku too.

[Fran~]

But this manga isn't called, Konoha, The Alliance, Raikage, Tsunade, Shikaku, etc... is called Naruto.
BTW, Tsunade wasn't ok with Raikage's idea of killing Naruto.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

BBut if they think 100% logically they could have accepted the offer.

Huh? Why would anyone accept to give Madara what he needs to enslave humanity to his whim?

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

I guess Raikage is a relic that the new generation has to get rid of. He's even willing to kill his comrades… or rather rivals? Well, I think Naruto is both a comrade and a rival. Raikage just became leader of the whole ninja world and yet he knows Naruto could take it all away from him.

... Seriously what?

[Fran~]

I don't understand why Naruto and Bee's presence at the battlefield imply their defeat.

It's like if you are going to play against the strongest team in the universe and you don't do it because you will lose. Naruto is like Kamina, he doesn't understand to give up and defeat isn't in his vocabulary, moreover with his friends in danger.

Just to be clear, i'm not in favor of Naruto's or Raikage's POV, to me, the right choice is right in the middle of their POV. Naruto should fight but not head-on... Hit & Run Style.

[Hunter]

Fran I think you're completely missing the point being discussed here but to answer your question it's simply about assessing the pros and cons :
+ Allowing the two Jinchuuriki on the battlefield is a significant boost of the Alliance fighting power
- Allowing the two Jinchuuriki on the battlefield is a significant risk to see them abducted which mean game over
- Naruto and Bee being who they are, it's nearly impossible to give them any kind of order. They're just going to do as they please.

The Kage judged that the cons supplanted the pros is all.
It's probably going to change as the situation grows more desperate in the next couple of chapters.

[neji-kun]

That point is a misnomer within the context of the manga as it deviates from a central aspect of the manga, which as of late has been out with the old in with the new and primarily ideology. Naruto has repeatedly made illogical choices, or rather choices that were perceived as illogical on first glance. If you wanna be Logical about it then technically speaking Madara winning would bring world peace in it's technical definition (no more war), you have to apply the context of emotion and subjective perspective for it to be wrong. Not to mention the fact that the whole point of a tailed beast/ Jinchuriki is that they're weapons. Why have a weapon and never fire it? Makes no sense. The reason Madara even has the ability to win this war in the first place is guess what? because hes using the tailed beasts power in conjunction with his plans. The alliance on the other hand fails to recognize this type of approach as a viable one because they're too busy being pu**ies.

Edit: I'm probably wrong lol

[Fran~]

Ok, i missed the point ... now i don't know if i should continue discussing your answer
Well, i'll just answer this

Originally Posted by Hunter

- Allowing the two Jinchuuriki on the battlefield is a significant risk to see them abducted which mean game over

War isn't free of risks. What obstacle has Madara to teleport them despite their localization?, Madara can go anywhere, to the kage's summit, to naruto's room, to save Sasuke, etc.

- Naruto and Bee being who they are, it's nearly impossible to give them any kind of order. They're just going to do as they please.

Totally agree... that's a real reason, not the risk of being abducted. But to avoid that, you should put Naruto with something like Kakashi or Shikamaru.

The Kage judged that the cons supplanted the pros is all.
It's probably going to change as the situation grows more desperate in the next couple of chapters.

Well, looking at zetsu's clones, i think that Raikage can't ignore that. Naruto already sensed the mayhem and i bet that Kishi didn't take the bother to draw Katsuyu at the HQ and Tsunade's shoulder for nothing.

Sorry for distracting the attention from the original discussion

[ZGoten]

Does anyone know what Sasuke is doing at the moment? The last time we saw him was during the talk with Naruto after the Danzou fight, wasn't it? I can't imagine him not playing his role in this war.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Fran~

War isn't free of risks. What obstacle has Madara to teleport them despite their localization?, Madara can go anywhere, to the kage's summit, to naruto's room, to save Sasuke, etc.

Totally agree... that's a real reason, not the risk of being abducted. But to avoid that, you should put Naruto with something like Kakashi or Shikamaru.

-No he can't, he couldn't find them as long as they were sealed inside the Bijuu room and only got a hold of their location after they left.
-That wouldn't change anything, do you honestly believe that if Kakashi or Shikamaru asked Naruto to stand down instead of the Raikage and Tsunade he would do it? Once Naruto has made up his mind no one can change it.

Originally Posted by ZGoten

Does anyone know what Sasuke is doing at the moment? The last time we saw him was during the talk with Naruto after the Danzou fight, wasn't it? I can't imagine him not playing his role in this war.

Trying to find a good set of stripper clothes isn't an easy thing when you're blind.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Fran~

War isn't free of risks.

As far as the Raikage is concerned, this risk isn't worth it. Given the circumstances and whats at stake, I don't think its unreasonable to think that way. Naruto didn't even come up with a half-decent reason...

What obstacle has Madara to teleport them despite their localization?

...Not knowing their location is the obstacle, hence the Raikage trying to keep them hidden.

Originally Posted by Fran~

Totally agree... that's a real reason, not the risk of being abducted. But to avoid that, you should put Naruto with something like Kakashi or Shikamaru.

As you said theres always a risk; they're both incredibly powerful, but who's to say what Madara can really do, it might not be worth it considering the world is at stake. Even placing Naruto with Kakashi and/or Shikamaru still isn't a sure bet.

[neji-kun]

They're gonna lose anyway.

[Shining Celebi]

Originally Posted by Fran~

I don't understand why Naruto and Bee's presence at the battlefield imply their defeat.

It's like if you are going to play against the strongest team in the universe and you don't do it because you will lose. Naruto is like Kamina, he doesn't understand to give up and defeat isn't in his vocabulary, moreover with his friends in danger.

Just to be clear, i'm not in favor of Naruto's or Raikage's POV, to me, the right choice is right in the middle of their POV. Naruto should fight but not head-on... Hit & Run Style.

I think it's best to remember that we all understand Naruto's POV and of course we know he will come out ahead, but from Raikage's point of view, this is some child he doesn't know, a mere Genin who refuses to obey the orders of the Hokage and the Raikage. In the Naruto world doing this itself should usually result in some severe punishment or maybe even death, Naruto is the lowest ranked solider but he is refusing to obey the supreme commanders. Tsunade knows all about Naruto and can accept this somewhat, but all Raikage sees is some insubordinate brat.

It's true that Killer Bee and Naruto are a significant fighting force, but that has to be weighed by the Kages against the risk of allowing them to fight. As far as we know as long as Madara knows where they are he can easily teleport them and subdue them with Gedo Mezo and then the war is over. The slightest risk of Madara capturing the kyuubi and hachibi is unacceptable. The wisest choice from the beginning was to kill the jinchuuriki, Tsuchikage's guards said that from the beginning. Of course the Kages chose to follow the new way and to believe in the jinchuuriki (and the Kazekage, Hokage, and Raikage would have never gone along with it anyway) so they didn't kill them to begin with like would have been done in the old days. But now the jinchuuriki are refusing to obey and running off into battle, and the Raikage is forced to consider this logical choice.

Otherwise, to win the war, Madara must kill 80,000 (now 40,000) ninja, which requires much more effort and may not even be possible. As we have seen, Madara and all his forces together seem about tied with the Alliance. But this is still better odds than exposing the jinchuuriki, even if 79,000 ninja die, that is better than all the ninja and normal humans being forced under Madara's rule for eternity.

[neji-kun]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

I think it's best to remember that we all understand Naruto's POV and of course we know he will come out ahead, but from Raikage's point of view, this is some child he doesn't know, a mere Genin who refuses to obey the orders of the Hokage and the Raikage. In the Naruto world doing this itself should usually result in some severe punishment or maybe even death, Naruto is the lowest ranked solider but he is refusing to obey the supreme commanders. Tsunade knows all about Naruto and can accept this somewhat, but all Raikage sees is some insubordinate brat.

It's true that Killer Bee and Naruto are a significant fighting force, but that has to be weighed by the Kages against the risk of allowing them to fight. As far as we know as long as Madara knows where they are he can easily teleport them and subdue them with Gedo Mezo and then the war is over. The slightest risk of Madara capturing the kyuubi and hachibi is unacceptable. The wisest choice from the beginning was to kill the jinchuuriki, Tsuchikage's guards said that from the beginning. Of course the Kages chose to follow the new way and to believe in the jinchuuriki (and the Kazekage, Hokage, and Raikage would have never gone along with it anyway) so they didn't kill them to begin with like would have been done in the old days. But now the jinchuuriki are refusing to obey and running off into battle, and the Raikage is forced to consider this logical choice.

Otherwise, to win the war, Madara must kill 80,000 (now 40,000) ninja, which requires much more effort and may not even be possible. As we have seen, Madara and all his forces together seem about tied with the Alliance. But this is still better odds than exposing the jinchuuriki, even if 79,000 ninja die, that is better than all the ninja and normal humans being forced under Madara's rule for eternity.

The best option would've been to kill them in the first place, not killing them was an emotionally based decision by (raikage, kazekage, etc..). That was a plan that would've taken only 2 lives yet they decide to wage a war that has killed 40,000 already. Thats Logical.

[Hunter]

Killing them both to begin with would only delay Madara for about a decade before the Bijuu respawn. It's only something that has to be considered if everything else is lost.

[HasuMasu]

Originally Posted by neji-kun

The best option would've been to kill them in the first place, not killing them was an emotionally based decision by (raikage, kazekage, etc..). That was a plan that would've taken only 2 lives yet they decide to wage a war that has killed 40,000 already. Thats Logical.

how the hell is postponing madara's plans better?

what, will they be stronger than madara by the time the tailed beasts they killed spawn again?

i mean, it's not like madara's still gonna be alive then right? he's definitely gonna get old and die because he's obviously so normal right?

if they kill bee and naruto, it will take years for the tailed beasts to come back

BY THAT TIME, the current leaders of the alliance WILL HAVE GROWN OLD AND WEAK

madara? he'll be just as powerful as he is now, maybe more, he's been around since forever and he'll be around for the rest of forever

postponing it will make the situation worse when the time comes

how the hell do they expect to beat madara in like, 10 years or whatever?

it's not like madara's joe schmoe ninja with a bag of shuriken

[neji-kun]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Killing them both to begin with would only delay Madara for about a decade before the Bijuu respawn. It's only something that has to be considered if everything else is lost.

That's true your right about that. I'm curious what your take on what would happened if it did come to that? Lets say they lose so they end up killing them as a last resort, what would stop Madara from just wiping them out so he doesn't have to worry about them 10 years down the road? And if that does happen was it worth it?

[Hunter]

To be honest if it comes to this the world is pretty much screwed regardless save for some unforeseem heroe to appear in the meantime.
But if we're going to be entirely realistic about this what the Alliance should have done is using sealing jutsu on Naruto and Bee much like the one Danzou had set up on his body which activated upon his death.
Something that would kill them in case they fall prey to Madara but still allow them to fight him as long as possible.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Could you pinpoint for me a plan in this sentence? Even the beginning of one?
He just refuses to stay out of the fight, period.

-Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't trying to intergrate himself into the fray a plan in itself? Granted, Naruto is being stupid about but its not like any of his plans were ever pre-meditated and thought through. He thinks of solutions as he goes and for this sort of thing, planning before-hand ain't gonna help him much. He may not have the solutions to world peace right now, but he certainly cannot make any with Madara breathing down everyone's necks.

Originally Posted by Hunter

First the behavior of the main character is more important than this background war, secondly no they are not acting the same way.
The Raikage is doing his duty where Naruto is acting on a whim, the Raikage isn't the one who started attacking his own side. The Raikage has every reason to be furious since those two are commiting treason. The Raikage ordering them to follow the orders given by the Alliance isn't the same than Naruto telling them to fuck off.

-Fair enough Hunter, I'll accept your stance on this. Though, now it just struk me that since Naruto isn't technically part of the Alliance (he was not included in their roster and part of their troops), Raikage's orders are invalid and he has no authority over Naruto's actions. B is another story, due to relation, but Naruto? If Naruto was smart he'd throw this reasoning instead but whatever.

Originally Posted by Hunter

You still don't get it. Even if their victory brought a thousands more wars it would be worth it nonetheless.
If Madara wins eveything.is.over. He will virtually become a god and enslave all of humanity.

The only thing he needs for that are the Jinchuuriki so if they are going to refuse a direct order, desert and attack their own comrades and leaders they best should have a damned good reason to endanger the entire world.
... And when the reason is solely that Naruto can't stand the idea that his friends could die fighting it's just ludicrous.

-Seems to me then that reagrdless of what A decides, their future is screwed. Madara gets the Jins? He wins. Madara wipes the floor with the Alliance? He wins. A kills Naruto and B? 10 years (of likely civil wars) pass and Madara wins. The world is already in grave danger. A and the Alliance are facing powers that are not held by anyone else. A already lost 50% of his total troops on clones that Madara vat-grew 100K of that day alone. Seems to me like this isn't time for refusing help, especially from those who already wield great powers. Yeah its risky, but they took a risk by accepting Madara's challenge before that anyway. Might as well throw everything you can against your foe if things are this grim.

[neji-kun]

Originally Posted by Hunter

To be honest if it comes to this the world is pretty much screwed regardless save for some unforeseem heroe to appear in the meantime.
But if we're going to be entirely realistic about this what the Alliance should have done is using sealing jutsu on Naruto and Bee much like the one Danzou had set up on his body which activated upon his death.
Something that would kill them in case they fall prey to Madara but still allow them to fight him as long as possible.

See that one I can agree with it seems like a relatively full-proof plan in comparison to the one they're acting on.

[neji-kun]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-


-Seems to me then that reagrdless of what A decides, their future is screwed. Madara gets the Jins? He wins. Madara wipes the floor with the Alliance? He wins. A kills Naruto and B? 10 years (of likely civil wars) pass and Madara wins. The world is already in grave danger. A and the Alliance are facing powers that are not held by anyone else. A already lost 50% of his total troops on clones that Madara vat-grew 100K of that day alone. Seems to me like this isn't time for refusing help, especially from those who already wield great powers. Yeah its risky, but they took a risk by accepting Madara's challenge before that anyway. Might as well throw everything you can against your foe if things are this grim.

This is exactly what i've been thinking it seems to me stupid not to use your full arsenal. It is entirely plausible bee and naruto being in the war could turn the tides. The alternative is not much better, might as well use them.