(CR) Sousou no Frieren (Frieren: Beyond Journey's End)

[deadite]

It's not about flashiness. It's spoiler territory but there is a reason modern mages don't Zoltraak spam like Fern/Frieren does. I believe will just have to be wait for the next episode.

[Shadow5YA]

Fern and Frieren are also smart enough not to engage in matchups they're disadvantageous against, and their mana detection and ability to gauge the opponent's strength is sharp enough not to make the wrong judgments.

[Thor's Hammer]

Originally Posted by deadite

It's not about flashiness. It's spoiler territory but there is a reason modern mages don't Zoltraak spam like Fern/Frieren does. I believe will just have to be wait for the next episode.

Is it really spoiler territory? I am anime-only, and even I know there's one clear reason that has been explained already in episode 8 why modern mages don't spam Zoltraak. As stated by Lugner, demonkind overcame Zoltraak 50 years ago. If the standard Zoltraak is ineffective against demons, then there's no wonder all the modern mages are specializing in a particular type of magic. According to Lugner, what Frieren specifically uses is demon-killing magic, so if Kanne specializes in water magic, then Frieren specializes in demon-killing magic. What I don't understand is why humans are avoiding using Zoltraak against each other, but given your post, I'm assuming that will be answered next episode.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

But Qual's terror was very well known among human mages. Everyone knew Zoltraak. They didn't need Frieren to tell them about it. So I don't think we can't know for sure how much involvement, if any, she had in the development of the version of zoltraak humanity uses. On top of that, the manga provides a few flashback panels showing the research on Zoltraak and we don't see Frieren around in those panels.

Lugner stated that Frieren "Greatly contributed to the human's research and analysis of Zoltraak." Now what that means exactly is up for grabs, but it does imply she actively participated in human research.

Originally Posted by Thor's Hammer

As stated by Lugner, demonkind overcame Zoltraak 50 years ago. If the standard Zoltraak is ineffective against demons.

Lugner stated they overcame the Zoltraak spell of 50 years ago, however, if you noticed Lugner was confused as to what spell Fern hit him with when she ambushed him. Lugner knows Zoltraak as "Human-killing Magic" and notes that the spell Fern used against him has been changed into "Demon-killing Magic." In the 50 years since Demons overcame Zoltraak, it has since been upgraded to be specifically effective against Demons, while still being "Basic Magic" against Humans.

[Thor's Hammer]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

Lugner stated that Frieren "Greatly contributed to the human's research and analysis of Zoltraak." Now what that means exactly is up for grabs, but it does imply she actively participated in human research.

People are questioning how Lugner would know this though since humans and demons don't mingle. If Frieren's contribution to the analysis of Zoltraak was so widely-known that even Lugner knew about it, you would think more people would know who she is or her name would be known among all mages, but that's not the case.

Lugner stated they overcame the Zoltraak spell of 50 years ago, however, if you noticed Lugner was confused as to what spell Fern hit him with when she ambushed him. Lugner knows Zoltraak as "Human-killing Magic" and notes that the spell Fern used against him has been changed into "Demon-killing Magic." In the 50 years since Demons overcame Zoltraak, it has since been upgraded to be specifically effective against Demons, while still being "Basic Magic" against Humans.

I did notice that. I just interpreted it as Lugner having faced Zoltraak even within the last few decades against modernish mages on the regular with it being ineffective, leading to Zoltraak becoming uncommon, and that it's Frieren and Fern's special application of Zoltraak that is demon-killing magic. If I interpreted it wrong, maybe the anime should have made it more clear.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Thor's Hammer

I did notice that. I just interpreted it as Lugner having faced Zoltraak even within the last few decades against modernish mages on the regular with it being ineffective, leading to Zoltraak becoming uncommon, and that it's Frieren and Fern's special application of Zoltraak that is demon-killing magic. If I interpreted it wrong, maybe the anime should have made it more clear.

Plenty of ways for Lugner to kill humans before they ever get a chance to use Zoltraak. Fern was praised for her speed, so not every mage is necessarily as fast as she was on the draw.

There's also the possibility that like some of mages in this arc have shown, they normally opt to use different kinds of magic instead of Zoltraak.

[Huh...?]

YouTube

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[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Thor's Hammer

People are questioning how Lugner would know this though since humans and demons don't mingle. If Frieren's contribution to the analysis of Zoltraak was so widely-known that even Lugner knew about it, you would think more people would know who she is or her name would be known among all mages, but that's not the case.

We are given zero reason to doubt Lügner's words to Linie. Yes, Lügner's name means Liar, but it's humans he deceives, not his subordinates.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

We are given zero reason to doubt Lügner's words to Linie. Yes, Lügner's name means Liar, but it's humans he deceives, not his subordinates.

Sure we are: it's not that we think that he's lying, but that his perspective is limited and biased.

He didn't even recognize what spell Fern shot him with just a moment ago, so why would I think he knows anything about the history of how humans refined Zoltraak?

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Sure we are: it's not that we think that he's lying, but that his perspective is limited and biased.

He didn't even recognize what spell Fern shot him with just a moment ago, so why would I think he knows anything about the history of how humans refined Zoltraak?

He didn't recognise it immediately but then a few moments later he remembered being shot by it in the past by Frieren. He was clearly in shock at the time so I think we can cut him some slack here.

However, that and what he thinks about Frieren's involvement with Zoltraak are different things. I agree that he likely has 2nd (or 3rd) hand knowledge on that and would be less reliable but it doesn't make much sense to me for it to be entirely fictional. I would take it more of evidence that we shouldn't take Frieren's comments on Zoltraak's development as being perfectly reliable (ie that she left out her involvement).

I agree that this does lead to the question as to why no human mages bring this up. I would point out that demons live longer and it might be more relevant to them - current humans tend to look down on "ordinary offensive magic" and the detailed origins might not be taught any more.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

He didn't recognise it immediately but then a few moments later he remembered being shot by it in the past by Frieren. He was clearly in shock at the time so I think we can cut him some slack here.

He recognized Frieren, NOT Frieren using Zoltraak. Because last time he fought Frieren can only be 80 years ago, when the hero party fought Aura. There's no reason to believe otherwise, considering he's one of Aura's minions. That's why he couldn't remember Frieren's face. 80 years is a long time, even for a demon.

And back then Frieren couldn't use Zoltraak. That much we already know.

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

I would take it more of evidence that we shouldn't take Frieren's comments on Zoltraak's development as being perfectly reliable (ie that she left out her involvement).

I argue Frieren's take on how humanity researched Zoltraak has more weight because it's consistent with the themes of the show, one of which is that humanity can achieve great things despite their short life span.

Lugner, on the other hand, is a biased demon who looks down on humanity by default. Of course he would never think humanity could decode and even modify Zoltraak on their own. In his mind, the only way this could be possible is that Frieren helped in that research. He has no proof of that, because last time he saw Frieren was 80 years ago and she couldn't even use Zoltraak back then. But he believes it must be like that because he thinks humanity simply can not achieve this on their own.

But it was this arrogance what allowed Fern to kick his ass. These demons who constantly look down on humans are always biased and wrong and doomed to fail, exactly because of that every reason.

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

current humans tend to look down on "ordinary offensive magic" and the detailed origins might not be taught any more.

The origin of "ordinary offensive magic" is part of history books. That same book that Fern neglected reading. But most human mages don't neglect their studies, so everyone knows the origins of that spell.

Human mages don't look down on it anyway. There's a reason it's not used much, but people should just wait until the anime covers this instead of making assumptions. I see there's a whole argument going on here based on assumptions. It's a pointless discussion. Just wait for the anime to tell you why people don't use zoltraak that much anymore.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

However, that and what he thinks about Frieren's involvement with Zoltraak are different things. I agree that he likely has 2nd (or 3rd) hand knowledge on that and would be less reliable but it doesn't make much sense to me for it to be entirely fictional. I would take it more of evidence that we shouldn't take Frieren's comments on Zoltraak's development as being perfectly reliable (ie that she left out her involvement).

If by your own admission Frieren's words aren't reliable, I don't see how that makes Lugner's any moreso.

You also speaking in black and white extremes.
The word was "contributor", which has a wide spectrum of ways Frieren could have helped out without active involvement that could make Lugner's statement not entirely false, but just exaggerated and misleading.

For example, she could have reproduced Qual's original Zoltraak during the battle, which evidently wasn't enough to kill him.
Then she would be contributing in an important aspect, but other human mages were the ones who innovated and refined it into the demon-killing spell it is today.
If Fern can fire Zoltraak faster than Frieren, then who's to say other human mages couldn't have made their own improvements in the past?

[ryllharu]

The fact that the discussion is still arguing over Lugner's assertions when that was 10 episodes ago is baffling to me.

Sousou no Frieren has never been a series with particularly well planned or even consistent lore.

What it does do very well is leave enough ambiguity throughout for the author to constantly retcon more detail into it in a seemingly finessed manner. When you marathon it or read it back over, the gaps are huge and get patched up later.

The retcons are pretty much constant throughout the series. Don't dwell on the details because they typically contradict each other through the wide omissions of detail.

[CrowKenobi]

Okay, the last few posts have gone way off-topic and have been deleted. Let’s stay on topic, please.

A reminder of the forum’s spoiler policy.

[relentlessflame]

This a random comment, and retreading a bit past ground, but although I do like this current arc so far (I haven't yet read the manga, but I will some day), I did feel extremely strongly the moment in time when the editor for the manga must have approached the author and said "This story is going too fast and smoothly! You need to slow down so we can extend for more volumes, and create more loose ends to come back to later!" Then, rather than the slow-paced sometimes almost slice-of-life story where they gradually accumulate characters on their journey and it's all very pensive, the newest character literally splits off with obvious dangling questions unanswered and we enter this tournament arc where they throw in dozens of characters and conflict in an isolated setting. I do like how, through this, they're still focusing on highlighting Frieren and Fern's personalities, but it's very obviously a detour.

The fact that this is only the first test of presumably many, and yet Fern's own record-setting achievement of third-class is just covered in a single-line after a several-month time jump (and Stark is just, like, chilling in town all this time?) shows that somehow they've got priorities now, and it was time to jump right into it. Plus... it seems kind of silly in the first place that Frieren and Fern are even putting up with this farce of a trial in the first place... but we did get Fern's "I don't need fancy magic to deal with you simpletons" comments out of it, along with lots of Frieren's "this is silly" faces, so there's that. And in fairness, the personality of these two socially-maladjusted mages is definitely the highlight of the story; the author can basically throw them into any situation, just imagine how they would act and let it play out, and it'll probably still be good.

However, if at the end of this whole arc, they get their token prizes (or not) and the three of them just go back on their journey like nothing happened, I will laugh (even though the arc will probably still be good!). We'll see...

[scififan]

So, the reason behind the dead or alive battle is because of an elf, who is more legendary than Frieren. Frieren is out of touch with the "current events".

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[Frontier]

Wirbel and Ubel sure seem to be enjoying each other in a fight, especially as Wirbel deflects her magic as she approaches him with the energy of a predator savoring her prey .

Meanwhile Fern is fighting Ehre and overwhelms her with not only basic attack magic but her piercing stoicism .

Wirbel and Ubel aren't quite the same though, both have killed but Wirbel doesn't savor or enjoy it and doesn't immediately go for the kill even when he very well could with his binding magic (which disappoints Ubel because all she wants is a mutual fight to the death). He's a merc who has had to fight child soldiers alongside demons, but he still has his humanity. And he delays killing Ubel long enough for Fern to show up and throw him off by claiming she killed his comrade (and of course Fern could make that sound convincing). That eye twitch .

Of course Ubel immediately readies to attack him...but there's no point, especially when the groups mutually have better things to do .

Poor Scharf. Laden was fooling everybody with a magic double the whole time. At least his little shock to Scharf's neck was the least he could've done to him .

Wirbel is a little gruff but he's considerate enough of his comrades despite himself, piggyback carrying Ehre and floating Scharf when they're both unable to move. And it seems Ehre has had a little hero-worship of Wirbel ever since he saved her village from demons (back when she had long hair!). Though Wirbel would say his motivations are purely selfish, having sworn to defeat demons for a girl he loved in his childhood, but that seems to improve Ehre's opinion of him. I wonder if there's more going into her desire for him to meet her grandfather ?

Watching the group open up like this, I'm glad they managed to nab a Stille. They seem cool overall .

It's interesting getting to better know the instructors, Genau and Sense, and their differing views on the exam and the people involved .

Laufen uses her super-speed magic to nab the Stille leaving Frieren, Lawine, and Kanne voicing off against Denken and Richter, and Denken knows full-well who Frieren is. And while the experienced mages single each other out, Richter takes on the other girls, though Denken doesn't think it needs to come to killing each other even though Richter is fine with it. I hope the girls are ready for this .

What is the point of becoming a 1st rank mage? Is it the prestiege? Or the promise that Serie, the head of the magic association and the foremost mage with power close to a Goddess and none other than that Elf Girl from the first OP we never saw, will grant you a spell to achieve your wildest dreams? It's enough to make one become strong enough to become more than human .

Originally Posted by scififan

So, the reason behind the dead or alive battle is because of an elf, who is more legendary than Frieren. Frieren is out of touch with the "current events".

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I wonder if this is lore accurate...

[Shadow5YA]

Props to Taniyama Kishou's performance. I could hear the saltiness oozing from Wirbel's voice when he found out he was fooled

Originally Posted by scififan

So, the reason behind the dead or alive battle is because of an elf, who is more legendary than Frieren. Frieren is out of touch with the "current events".

Like Sense said, that's on Genau for making the test like this.

The most you could say is that Serie shares some responsibility for being their boss.

[Kanon]

So Serie is voiced by Mariya Ise based on the preview? Not the voice I expected for her.

Fern vs Ehre was not animated very well, but it's not a fight that matters much anyway. It just came to down to Fern beam spamming in the end, with Ehre having to use all her mana to defend herself. It was also confirmed Fern was the one who caught the Stille using the same spell as Frieren.

Wirbel seemed like the typical edgy teenager character at first, but not only is he much older than he looks, he's also not edgy at all. He only kills when it's necessary and he sure as hell doesn't enjoy it, unlike Übel. Happy his party ended up being lucky because they're pretty likable.

[blakstealth]

Dang, it's like I'm playing Ikaruga out here. Fern's Zoltraak spam was sick.