2010-09-01, 14:17 | Link #81 | |||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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For myself, despite the praise at my academic performance and general smarts, I've come to terms with the fact that in the ways that matter, I'm a complete dumbass. Quote:
Not only that, but you also have to make regulations to say what constitutes fair competition and on what basis to share indispensable resources (like railways for train companies). And all that comes with it: mechanisms to control the application of those rules, and mechanisms to deal with all the times they're broken (and someone gets caught). So, yeah. Sometimes it works, sometimes, not so much. Quote:
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2010-09-01, 15:31 | Link #82 | ||
Banned
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Gas is more expensive in Europe. As a result, people drive less and the importance of what they look for in a new car, is how much gas it uses. These are objective reality, truthful factors. Now, if the US wants to reduce it's reliance on oil, it needs to get people to drive less and pick "smarter" cars. But no politician will suggest taxing gas more, or reducing the oil subsidy so that oil price goes up. Why? Because people would get angry at their gas price increasing, and the politician would be voted out. We've just analyzed the problem and solution intellectually, even taking subjective and emotional factors into account. Quote:
So what I see as the problem, is people making too many decisions on emotion alone. If I seem too focused on intellectualism, it's because I see too many emotional people, making too many emotional decisions, so I'm trying to tilt things back the other way in order to achieve balance. Emotion is essentially the anti-intellectualism. |
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2010-09-01, 18:22 | Link #83 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
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2010-09-01, 23:50 | Link #84 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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While I don't disagree entirely with the premise, let me try to show how emotions can be very much a part of many important moral dilemmas that are part of (though not all of) intellectual debate. I've adapted the following story from Justice: What's The Right Thing To Do? by Michael J. Sandel, who is a professor of government at Harvard University. I've taken several major liberties to shorten the story, so if some of the points don't come across clearly, the fault lies entirely with me, and not with Prof Sandel. To get the real deal, I highly recommend the book to those who are keen to read more about his theses on justice, especially those set in the context of American life and politics. Quote:
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2010-09-02, 08:47 | Link #85 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
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This is a philosophical question that most students come across when they take philosophy, but in the end it's whether you believe in moral relativism, as in everything needs to be in context or universal morality. The extension of the trolley problem you bring up is similar to one variance, which is the trolley car with the lever that allows you to divert the train, but in the end as a man in the trolley you have no knowledge of who the men are and what they are doing, all the information that you could possibly have must be given at the start or else the situation is too much of a deviation from the original trolley problem since you've given the conductor of the trolley more information of the global world, then you must compare it to the original trolley problem with this added global information.
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2010-09-02, 09:50 | Link #86 | ||
Banned
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Having said that, I'll play your game, because the main idea you're trying to get across is a simple one: what is your choice when confronted with a situation where you could save many lies by sacrificing a few, or just one? I think, intellectually, we all know the answer. Anybody who has watched Star Trek II knows the answer an intellectual would take. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one." But that's an option of extremely last resort. 95% of the time there is always another way, if your mind is open enough to see it. By playing puzzle games and considering riddles, a true intellectual can train their mind to see the possibilities; that's the whole reason puzzles exist. My mom and dad liked to watch a lot of murder mysteries(a variant of the puzzle); my dad liked Columbo, and my mom liked Murder, She Wrote. In each show, there were always clues as to who did it if you could pick up on them, which the main character of each did. And I believe Columbo said once (or maybe it was someone else, can't find an exact person to attribute it to): "There are no perfect crimes; only imperfect investigations." So, to put my own spin on it: "There is always a correct way forward, even if I don't see it at the moment." |
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2010-09-02, 10:23 | Link #87 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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If, for example, we hold to the universal rule — we must not kill — then whatever the circumstances, there can be only one right choice: You must choose not to push the heavy man off the bridge, because doing so would kill him. But is that necessarily the right decision? From a coldly rational, utilitarian basis, it would seem wrong, because we would be letting five people die instead of just one. We lose more than we gain. So, despite this stark net-gain equation, what is it, really, that is holding us back from killing the heavy man? Nothing more than the emotional attachment to the supposedly universal rule: We must not kill. Notice, then, how this emotional attachment is put to the test once we reveal that the heavy man is a Nazi plotting the five workers' deaths. If we know this to be true, would we still feel so charitable towards this man's welfare? Chances are, no. Most of us would not hesitate to push him off the bridge. Better the villain dies and we save five heroes. Quote:
Forced to reflect in retrospect, the sole survivor of the original team is now fiercely adamant that he made the wrong decision: He should have killed the goatherd, despite the moral quandry. Like you said: The needs of the many outweigh those of the few. So, kill one goatherd, save many lives. Right or wrong? |
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2010-09-02, 10:37 | Link #88 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
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Those situations being compared CANNOT be compared at all because if you were to that would be a logical fallacy because the information given to the conductor is different in the case, his state of mind is already biased by the information. The thing is the information changes the parameters of the experiment and the events are no longer comparable in a philosophical sense.
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2010-09-02, 10:50 | Link #90 |
Frandle & Nightbag
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Here's a thought. Why must we justify our decisions as right or condemn them as wrong to act on them? This strikes me as dishonest: we believe in our own moralities only as long as it is convenient for us to do so?
There is right and wrong, and then there is necessary. I believe it is possible to take necessary action while it remains wrong, and that the reason we shift 'right' so often to conform to 'necessary' is because we don't like being slapped in the face with the limits of our abilities. Is it reasonable to expect someone to be capable of solving all their problems the right way? No, we're human and we're going to screw up, but I think that failing to acknowledge the fact that it IS a screw up is dangerous. Once you accept that killing a human being is actually 'right' in certain situations, rather than acknowledging it as necessary-but-wrong, you make yourself feel better at the cost of making yourself more open to further wrongdoing.
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2010-09-02, 11:18 | Link #91 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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That said, let's return to supposedly oversimplified runaway-trolley thought experiment. Suppose now the context is different. The five workers on the railway are the town hooligans who attacked the heavy man's younger sister, gang raping her and leaving her permanently scarred and crippled. The heavy man disabled the trolley's brakes precisely because he wanted revenge (let's assume that the town's judiciary is corrupt; the heavy man and you both know his sister will get no justice in court). So, again: Would you push the heavy man off the bridge to save the five workers? It's still trade one life to save five lives. Right or wrong, in this case? |
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2010-09-02, 11:30 | Link #92 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
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As the conductor I am not privy to that information, I can only make judgements with the information that is available to me, assuming that as in the original trolley problem, the trolley is a) moving so fast the five cannot escape in time, or the one cannot escape in time, b) the moment being captured is the instantaneous moment you decide who to kill/let die, for all the conductor to know, the five could be doctors and the one could be president of a country, but that's not what is important, because the trolley is moving so fast your deciding between 1 or 5, and of course the rational decision would be to kill the one whatever his motive to preserve five, but in the idea of absolute morality, choosing each is the one in the same, but then you can extend the problem by adding more people to one side and through that come to the assumption that human life is valueless because if killing 1 is the same as killing all is morally equivalent it doesn't matter who you kill. In the end it depends on how you think of the world, moral relativists will say that we are influenced by the constructs of society and culture whereas the absolutists will claim that there is a fundamental moral center and each decision is either morally apprehensive or morally acceptable.
I mean to answer your question, for me both choices are terrible but one is inevitable and at that point I don't think I could put decision into my hands, I'd much rather derail the train to avoid both and sacrifice my self, but that isn't within the parameter especially when my duty is to protect those on board the trolley. In the end both situations are equally bad and the only way I could decide would be to flip a coin, that is the only solution I could come up with without assaulting my morals. This situation also makes you the judge, jury and executioner, you have in essence become god, of that situation as solely you have the decision to kill or let live. The truth is the truth, nothing can change that, the only thing that we can do is change our interpretation of what is the truth, the truthful information doesn't change but our perceived judgments doesn't diminish the value for truth seeking and information gathering. Let's say that in your situation so the five guys raped the fat guy's sister, but it turns out the sister of the fat guy killed half their gang and it's a case of retaliation in the most brutal sense possible, so although the fat man is doing a good thing for the wrong reason the five others did the wrong thing for the right reason. The facts still say that they did rape this girl, but now you've added a qualifier to their actions. Last edited by Nosauz; 2010-09-02 at 11:42. |
2010-09-02, 11:32 | Link #94 | |
Frandle & Nightbag
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Even if that weren't the case, that value is a tangled web of factors so distinct and farflung that there is literally no way a human being could know and process them all. Attempting to make a value judgment on the individual becomes futile at best and wildly harmful at worst, which is why moral codes tend to be broad in their dicta.
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2010-09-02, 11:37 | Link #95 | |||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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The fact is, in real life, we have no perfect knowledge. All the time, we make decisions based on incomplete knowledge. Yet, somehow, those who favour "objective" decision-making seem to operate under the assumption that all factors can be known and measured in advance to derive a perfectly objective answer. In truth, we all know that this is impossible in reality. When forced to make an instant decision in a field of imperfect knowledge, each of one us will have no choice but to rely on our moral instincts to make a snap judgment. And these instincts, on closer examination, will no doubt be influenced by a whole range of environment factors. We are humans. We are creatures of emotion affected by our environments. This is an inescapable fact. To deny this is to deny we are human. Quote:
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To me then, an intellectual is someone who always seeks to question assumptions, including his own. He doubts everything, including his own most cherished beliefs. The day an intellectual finds himself unable to debunk his own arguments is the day he has become drunk on his own superiority. Or, to return to the prime mover of the Greek philosophical tradition, there is what Socrates famously said: "Scio nescio." "I know that I know nothing." The starting point of any intellectual is to accept his own ignorance, to accept that one cannot know anything with absolute certainty even though one can feel confident about certain things. |
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2010-09-02, 11:48 | Link #96 | |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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Even in very modern societies you cannot have absolute fairness/justice. But a good system tries to minimize the negative effects for the majority at the expense of a minority that falls into special case categories. If you make the extreme (seldom) case the primary target for rule/law/decission making, you will end up with a system that is at the best an obstruction for societal development and at the worst transforms the majority into those minority-individuums those laws/rules/decissions were made for. A (psychological) dilemma is a construct that has no "convenient" solution, but we must not forget, that dilemmas are not the norm.
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2010-09-02, 11:48 | Link #97 |
Senior Member
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Age: 35
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But that in turn leads to the nihilistic point of view that in the end we are merely just players acting out a play, and our misunderstandings are in fact not misunderstandings but the threads of fate that bind us. True we may not be able to the see the world for it's truth, but all we can do is to strive and find it, and always be searching for that truth, not the truth that we want to believe. Inevitably if I am to know nothing, then my life has no meaning as everything I know is not as it seems.
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2010-09-02, 11:54 | Link #98 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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In any case, you misunderstand Socrates' words. He did not mean to say we can know nothing, but rather to remind us that we must accept our ignorance. No matter how much we think we know, there will always be at least one person who knows something we don't. Indeed so. But it remains the case that such dilemmas are the truest tests of our moral characters. We gain much insight by subjecting ourselves to such tests and this, hopefully, will help us make better decisions under average conditions, as we would thence be more aware of our true motives. |
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2010-09-02, 12:03 | Link #99 | |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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2010-09-02, 12:05 | Link #100 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
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Yes it is, but it's near impossible to reach nirvana, when you think about it, much like salvation through the church, in the end we search for these meanings to our lives in an attempt to justify and give value to our lives. To make sure our lives and our reason to live have a legacy, whether it's through infamy, gluttony, piousness, kindness, we still want to validate our existence, to make sure that the period after our name means something more than the journey that is our lives. Also Socrates may mean what you say he means, but his words are more truer to my interpretation in the sense that history itself cannot be known, the past and our study of history may have been completely flawed, and no one but those that lived in that time would know, and even if the written word can be passed down, it's veracity is not, only true experience in that context could lead you to understanding the time period. So in fact there are cases where we might be aware of our ignorance but no one alive knows the truth behind the situation, and hence the shattering of the notion that we can piecemeal a universal truth or even a societal construct, in the end we are just mice stuck in that mouse wheel forever to run, always thinking we are moving forward yet we only stand still, stuck in our ego, desperately trying to validate our ego.
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