2006-07-17, 12:59 | Link #21 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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So.. if the "majority of anime is simple-minded trash aimed at kids" ... perhaps it would be helpful if MrProphet provided some examples of anime he thinks highly of?
Otherwise, I call troll because you can reduce *any* story or piece of literature to shreds by labeling characters using cardboard archetypes and then making generalized assertions. The four terms you define ("sanguine" ,etc) are fine but they are western based archetypes for western literature. Eastern literature uses different enough archetypes that it is more useful to use eastern terms for them ... otherwise the labels never really fit.
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2006-07-17, 13:08 | Link #22 | |||
The Commissar Vanishes
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1) Lone Island Syndrome (on the cliffs in the rain) 2) Live Alive (after the concert) 3) Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu V (at the railroad) 4) Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu VI (in the sealed dimension) Of these four, only the Lone Island Syndrome occurance can be reasonably construed as having been caused by Kyon (he fell from the cliff), and even in this case it can be argued that she was dere-dere because of the atmosphere of mystery that she encountered, and Kyon was only "the last straw". In any case, the 3 other events were completely unrelated to Kyon. In Live Alive she is dere-dere because of the adrenaline boost after the concert. In the finale, the case of dere-dere is triggered first by brooding about Asakura (or lack of her), and then by the validation of her dreams about actually finding aliens. Kyon does not feature in Haruhi's transit to dere-ness at all and acts only as an observer. Quote:
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2006-07-17, 13:25 | Link #23 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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I already said that Kyon's role in Haruhi's dereness is not absolutely causal but CONTINGENTLY causal. And we don't have to only take examples from the anime; I've read the entire series up till Volume 7. If you haven't read it, then of course, your conception of Suzumiya Haruhi will be different from mine. In any case, your arguments are weak and unconvincing. I do not see how you can justify the adrenaline boost after the concert as contributing to the dere-ness. That is incredibly speculative, and if you have any knowledge of the craft of novel-writing then you must know that the scene showing them together and her being dere is an INTENTIONAL act by the author. He wanted us to see them together like that, and he wanted to display Haruhi's dere-ness then. I don't see how your reasoning is even remotely plausible. Two more points; would Haruhi have been similarly dere if it were the others who were around her at those four scenes? Would she have told Itsuki about her past if he were the one at the railroad scene? But no, this problem in SuzuHaru has to be given a broader treatment.. The fact is, her powers ENABLE the selective presence of Kyon during those very scenes. In fact, after Live Alive, in the novel, it writes suggestively that Kyon's body "directed him" (as if unconsciously) to where Haruhi was.. under the tree. If that isn't a play on her powers, then I don't know what is. There are also multiple times throughout the novel where the three continually mention Kyon's importance to Haruhi, and Itsuki has already even asserted that Kyon is the "chosen one", who Haruhi "wants to be with". These suggest that if you argue that it was the situation that prompted Haruhi's dere-ness, we have to consider how much of an influence Haruhi had on creating the situation. From the God-theory, and anything else, I would say that there's a significant influence. Second, we can also consider her jealous bouts.. displays of tsun behavior with underlying dere reasons (jealousy, being hurt etc). I think these are obviously linked, or should I say, directly caused by Kyon's behavior. I don't see how anyone can come up with any argument against this.. In other words, I think while your analysis is a somewhat decent attempt, you fail to consider the bigger picture. When you isolate one fact from the others, things become clearer --- but also more misleading. |
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2006-07-17, 13:36 | Link #24 | |||||||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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I won't debate that the target audience for most anime is teens. I also won't debate that alot of anime series aren't exactly deep material either. So what? If you ask me, the overall quality isn't lower than what you get when you go into a video rental. If your majesty MrProphet decrees that the majority of this stuff is simple-minded trash either, I can live with this pretty haughty assessment. If you don't, we'll have to disagree. Quote:
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Let's go just through the main character development: Mitsuki - initially a genki and positive type, first develops some melancholy about handing over the guy that always felt special to her to her best friend. Develops a huge case of guilt over the accident. Piling up frustration over the next year while caring for the guy she likes, seeing him gradually come undone. Forces herself on him to build a shaky relationship over two years. Sees him noncommittal at first and then slowly slipping away after Haruka woke up. Takes some desperate measures based on bad advice by a coworker. Slips into depression, cheats on Bakayuki and summons up the spine to call it quits after she shees his lacking reaction to her confession. In the end, gives in to return after she gets credible evidence that her love _is_ properly requited after all. So. That's a simple one-dimensional character for you? Not for me, I consider this a very gripping character study. And also fairly realistic - since I have had certain real life experiences which came quite close in several parts. Looking forward to your compelling counterarguments. Quote:
YOU are the one who is so desperately trying to force characters into silly cliches. Don't demand that I do the same. Quote:
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2006-07-17, 13:38 | Link #25 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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2) ... because the Japanese themselves use these terms? You can find examples of this character type in both Chinese and Japanese film (live-action and animated). Strong women in western literature don't really exhibit the behavior pattern (though the "ice princess" archetype comes pretty close in some instances). I just think its more productive to use the terms a culture uses for analyzing their own stories. Oh, if you are from Estonia ... a recent BBC News article said your country was the most wired/wireless in the world, including a "paperless government". Nice (as long as it actually works ).
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2006-07-17, 15:28 | Link #28 | |
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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However, you seem to take every opportunity to do so, then repeatedly beat that opinion down people's throats. Why go out of your way to do so? Why not just avoid discussions for series and topics you don't like? There's a fine line between expressing an unpopular opinion about something and trolling. Further, you're speaking out of ignorance. As Mentar pointed out, none of the series you mentioned as bishoujo-game based actually are. In essence, you're criticizing and entire genre that you obviously aren't familiar with if you don't even know which series beong to it. Instead of saying it's all crap before you've seen any, why not try watching a series or two first, then forming an opinion? Better yet, don't say anything about the genre itself and criticize individual series in it for any flaws they might have. Oh, and note that criticize doesn't mean bash at every opportunity.
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2006-07-17, 15:49 | Link #29 | |||
The Commissar Vanishes
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I don't care to discuss my own person here with strangers. I fail to see how it's of any relation to the topic at hand, yet several distortions need to be addressed. In advance, I'd like the mods and onlookers to pardon me for going so deep into an off-topic discussion.
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But I would respectfully stress that I am not trolling any particular thread or person, nor did I ever do such a thing. A moderator would correct me if it were not so. Quote:
PS: Could perhaps an anime like Da Capo be a datesim-to-anime convertion or am I wrong again? 8) |
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2006-07-17, 17:24 | Link #30 | |
Gomen asobase desuwa!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Age: 43
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http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...18&postcount=1 |
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2006-07-17, 23:19 | Link #31 |
芸術は爆発だ!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 35
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A few of my guy friends in Japan would use this to describe me and I never really knew what it meant. They'd introduce me to their friends and say "she's a tsundere type girl" and they'd all get excited.. I don't really agree with it. I mean, I may be a bit cold, but of course I'll be kind and loving to the person I like! If you are nice to everyone it can send out mixed messages. Aren't most girls like that?
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2006-07-17, 23:27 | Link #32 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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wanna meet up? |
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2006-07-18, 00:40 | Link #33 | |
芸術は爆発だ!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 35
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.... are you an idiot? this isn't a dating site, you know. i'm not interested in having an otaku as a boyfriend. girl's are only "dere" to guys they like, so most of you will only see the "tsun" part, sorry to say. |
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2006-07-18, 00:52 | Link #34 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Geez, you are mean.
Although you visit this forum, he doesn't know you are not otaku. So, give him a break. How do you like a guy without knowing him? Your "like" is more likely mean you like his look. There's no right and wrong here since most guys' like is skin deep on this part, too. Oh, Tsundere book looks nice. http://harusuki.net/diary_shopping.html#050930 |
2006-07-18, 01:02 | Link #35 | |
芸術は爆発だ!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 35
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No, I think that's why a tsundere type girl is automatically cold to every boy she meets, until she begins to like him because of something he does, or her feelings build over time. You can think I'm mean if you want. It's a bad quality in real life, but endearing and moé in anime characters? That's unfair. The truth is if you met half these girls you love so much in life, you'd probably think they were a bitch, isn't that right? |
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2006-07-18, 01:15 | Link #36 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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That response wasn't even remotely funny; I see my pokish fun is lost. A tsundere is fine and all, but a baka is not ; ) Also quite unbelievable to see that people would think all users, or at least the average user on this forum are otakus. Such narrow mindedness and stupidity.. Give people a little bit of praise or positive hint and they climb all over you. Amusing. |
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2006-07-18, 02:19 | Link #37 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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My wife classifies as "tsundere" but I don't think she would react so violently to what was obviously a post intended in humor ... she'd say something scathingly sardonic and humorous back. I wouldn't describe a tsundere as "cold" ... more like hotblooded and fiery. Little fireballs....
1) Many posters on this forum are not otaku in the Japanese sense, we're enthusiasts who actually have other lives. Minus points for assuming... 2) Arias was making a bit of fun ... you apparently took him seriously (unless your response was *meant* to be a play on tsundere behavior... was it?). To respond to your initial question, Yotsuba.. many girls are not like that... they encompass the whole personality spectrum, just like guys.
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2006-07-18, 02:49 | Link #38 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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In my book, you'd be a tsundere if the boyfriend you're in love with now had been someone you hated and whacked down for quite a while, before you had a change of heart and changed your attitude towards him completely. Up to you to decide whether or not this description fits for you |
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2006-07-18, 02:55 | Link #39 | |
芸術は爆発だ!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 35
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2) pin-pon! a bit slow on the uptake, ne. i have a boyfriend, and he's not only an otaku, he's a hikikomori and a lolicon. i scored bigtime, haha. <3 |
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2006-07-18, 03:59 | Link #40 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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My wife loligoths up for halloween (actually its more of a "perky goth") ... I'm not sure she's clued in that I find it very attractive. This year I'm making her little openmouthed skull ties for her twin ponytails like the little golfer Kooh wears in the online Pangya golf game.
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