(L+CR) Hibike! Euphonium [anime]

[HandofFate]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

At first I thought so too, but now that we're slowly being shown another side of Asuka, I think Shuichi has been right about her all along.

.

When did he say it, I think I remember, but forget the lines he used.

I forget her name, but the other euphonium player that failed the audition.

She mentioned how Taki made her play parts she didn't practice much, he did that to Kimiko as well, so looks like he's actually observing everyone taking note of parts they didn't practice and put them to the test during the audition on that.

[BBOvenGuy]

Okay, finally saw the episode.

I need to watch the sequence with Reina and Kumiko again. The first thing that struck me about it is that Reina doesn't seem, to my eyes, to be acting that differently from when they were on the mountaintop. Let's face it - Reina is weird, in a way that a lot of artistic types are weird. She's her own person and has no interest in making herself appear to be anyone else. And when she's around Kumiko is when she lets her weirdness out most freely, because Kumiko still accepts her. I may have to go back to the earlier episodes to figure out how that came to be.

Meanwhile, about the whole audition fiasco... If I'd been in Taki's shoes, I would have told Yuko to suck it up or give her spot in the band to someone else. So it's probably a good thing that I'm not a high school band teacher. It also seems like Yuko is doing way too much protesting on Kaori's behalf, as if she's trying to live vicariously through Kaori or something, which isn't good.

The second audition, in front of the entire band, is probably the best option Taki has to go with. I went back to the basketball analogy I used several pages back. If Taki was a basketball coach who knew Reina from before, and knew how good Reina was, why wouldn't he make her the star player? What would be so controversial about that? But then I realized that basketball tryouts aren't done in private, the way musical auditions are. If Reina and Kaori were basketball players and Taki was their coach, it would be obvious who the better player was through drills and scrimmages that the entire team would see. But the auditions were done behind closed doors, so people can imagine whatever "unfair favoritism" they want to imagine. Bringing that competition into the open for everyone to hear for themselves is the only way to solve it.

And I doubt Taki would have done it if he wasn't confident about the outcome. But we'll see that next week.

[GMT]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I thought so, too. He comes across as weak-willed and uncertain in this episode, probably not good qualities for someone who wants to reach the top of the ladder in competitions. Perhaps he just hasn't had much experience as a high-school music teacher. I thought he needed to take Yuuko aside and tell her in no uncertain terms that she could either accept his decision or leave the band. Now it is apparent that he'll cave under pressure which gives the students much too much power in what is fundamentally an asymmetric relationship.

And he might've, if Reina, aka "She Who Doesn't Play Well With Others" hadn't run off with her mouth. That sort of "I'm the best, so you can go fuck yourself with your trumpet, sideways," attitude is the absolute wrong attitude to have in a concert band; and needed correction at least as much as angry ribbon chick's outburst did.

So the re-audition serves two purposes. One, enforce the perception that the teacher is willing to take a corrective action against any potential fallout from an obvious conflict-of-interest (especially since the episode makes it clear that the whole kerfuffle has distracted the band like a laser pointer distracts my cats.) Second, it serves to clip Reina's wings. If she wants to make it, then she has to lose the diva attitude and play nicely with others, or at least learn how to convince a hostile crowd that she means business ... hence the public vote. She'll either earn her first chair, or she's going to have a nice, fat, slice of humble pie.

The advisor proved pretty useless here, too, providing no support for Taki or even some helpful advice from someone with more experience than him. Perhaps she just doesn't care enough about music to become really involved. Her interview with Kumiko suggested that the advisor thinks music is nice, but that it shouldn't get in the way of important things like math.

Well, yeah, this is Japan we're talking about here. High school prepares a person for the college entrance exam, which determines whether or not one makes anything of themselves, or they end up watching shows like Sound! Euphonium in their parents' basement at 1:15 AM.

The teacher's attitude isn't wrong, especially since Kumiko gives her the non-optimal answer to the question of "Have you thought about your future at all?"

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

I need to watch the sequence with Reina and Kumiko again. The first thing that struck me about it is that Reina doesn't seem, to my eyes, to be acting that differently from when they were on the mountaintop. Let's face it - Reina is weird, in a way that a lot of artistic types are weird. She's her own person and has no interest in making herself appear to be anyone else. And when she's around Kumiko is when she lets her weirdness out most freely, because Kumiko still accepts her. I may have to go back to the earlier episodes to figure out how that came to be.

And that's the big reason why Kumiko x Reina was doomed from the word "go". Reina is weird. She's also only got two emotional states that I can discern: Quiet weirdo, and way too intense for her own good ... she has clearly never learned how to interact with people in socially-acceptable ways. People like Reina don't have many friends at all, and if they do, most of those friends might be hesitant to get into serious discussions with someone like her ... because they'll hit something that'll set off that intensity of hers.

Kumiko has undoubtedly witnessed this in their time in middle school ... yet, she still bluntly ruins Reina's delusions of grandeur when they get that "dud" gold. So, naturally, Reina would be drawn to someone who isn't going to tip-toe around her. So since Reina only knows how to be weird or intense, it follows that her interactions with Kumiko are ... well ... intense. It's not that she necessarily wants to get into Kumiko's unmentionables, it's just that she doesn't know how to appropriately express the thought of "I appreciate you, Kumiko. You're honest, and you don't run away from my eccentricities."

And this quiet weirdo/hot-blooded intensity thing has been hinted at in past episodes. All the way back to the show's cold open, where Reina is having kittens at the thought that they got a "dud" gold in middle school. And then there was that time, half a series ago, when she gets angry at Shuuichi and Kumiko for casting aspersions on Taki-sensei. Or the scream and the trumpet playing early on in the series. Every other time, she's just being the creepy, quiet, kid.

Ergo, it only makes sense that she's going to be super-intense toward her new best, and maybe only, friend. And when you consider that, everything else falls into place ... how Kumiko clearly recognized the events of episode 8 as a "dream-like" encounter; or how Reina is the only one who is always invading the personal space of the perpetually shocked Kumiko, and the relationship is shown as not progressing beyond that (remember, it's not Reina that Kumiko's discussing with her cactus. ) It's because Reina only knows how to be intense or weird ... but on the other hand, it works because Kumiko totally gets that, and (mostly) only sees things for what they really are.

[chaosprophet]

Originally Posted by GMT

And he might've, if Reina, aka "She Who Doesn't Play Well With Others" hadn't run off with her mouth. That sort of "I'm the best, so you can go fuck yourself with your trumpet, sideways," attitude is the absolute wrong attitude to have in a concert band; and needed correction at least as much as angry ribbon chick's outburst did.

So the re-audition serves two purposes. One, enforce the perception that the teacher is willing to take a corrective action against any potential fallout from an obvious conflict-of-interest (especially since the episode makes it clear that the whole kerfuffle has distracted the band like a laser pointer distracts my cats.) Second, it serves to clip Reina's wings. If she wants to make it, then she has to lose the diva attitude and play nicely with others, or at least learn how to convince a hostile crowd that she means business ... hence the public vote. She'll either earn her first chair, or she's going to have a nice, fat, slice of humble pie.

I agree Reina shouldn't have said that, but I understand her loosing her cool considering what people were saying reflect on both her and Taki. As if Taki was someone to play favorites and as if she wasn't really good, even thought she seems to have worked hard to get where she is. Plus I don't think her outburst changed the situation much, the rumors would still keep on anyway.

I don't think the second audition serves your second purpose at all. Remember that Taki came up with it after the other teacher told him that "Music is nice. You can't lie. You can only admit when something sounds good". So Taki is clearly doing this believing that if Reina showed in front of everyone how she was better, they couldn't help but accept it.

And as I mentioned a few posts ago, even if the members just played favorites, Kaori wouldn't accept getting the solo if she performs worst than Reina. According to Asuka, Kaori just want to accept it, and listening to Reina and seeing she is better would bring that result.

[Dextro]

I know this is slightly off the current topic of discussion but: am I the only one who feels like the beginning of Tutti (the ED song) should come with a show of Jazz Hands? The song just has that jazzy feeling about it

[Pen3]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

Meanwhile, about the whole audition fiasco... If I'd been in Taki's shoes, I would have told Yuko to suck it up or give her spot in the band to someone else. So it's probably a good thing that I'm not a high school band teacher. It also seems like Yuko is doing way too much protesting on Kaori's behalf, as if she's trying to live vicariously through Kaori or something, which isn't good.

Yuko is just one of the 40 or so members that is going back to slacking off, you still need to solve the problem entirely. Taki sensei giving that second audition would be the simple and correct solution for that.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

It also seems like Yuko is doing way too much protesting on Kaori's behalf, as if she's trying to live vicariously through Kaori or something, which isn't good.

Thanks. That helps provide some insight into Yuko's motivations which otherwise seem entirely over-the-top to me, even for an adolescent. I'm still surprised no one else here thinks her actions are implausibly rebellious for a Japanese high school girl though.

As for the advisor's concerns, I certainly know why she is more focused on grades than music. I mentioned her scene with Kumiko only to point out how her priorities are different from Taki's. That said, she still provided essentially nothing in terms of support for a fellow teacher suddenly adrift. She did sit in on every audition, leaving the impression that the decisions were jointly made, but she made to no effort to endorse those decisions in front of the band. She seems to be a figure with some authority in the eyes of the students so an intervention by her might have carried some weight.

From all the comments i get a feeling people are making Kaori a bad person.

I don't think anything I said would give that impression. I thought Kaori handled the situation as well as could be expected. If anything, I feel sympathy for her. Not winning the solo part was sad enough in itself, but Yuko's explosion made things a hundred times more embarrassing for Kaori.

And Reina wins no stars in my book for her outlandishly self-aggrandizing behavior either. I suspect she was a spoiled little princess at home with everyone lavishing praise on her talents.

[FredFriendly]

After watching episode 10 yet again late last night, I realized I had not taken in Yuuko's reaction to Kaori requesting a second audition. Why was she not overjoyed that her beloved sempai was going to have another go? Why did she look so miserable?

To me, Yuuko looked like someone who just realized that they had put their foot in it. I imagine that she knows but does not want to admit that Kousaka is actually better, and now, through her own outrageous actions, everyone else will see for themselves that this is so.

So, instead of shedding tears of joy on her idols behalf, Yuuko is shedding tears of regret since she now realizes that Kaori may be publicly humiliated through her own selfish actions. This is not the outcome she had envisioned, for sure. In her pee-brain she probably thought that just confronting Taki-sensei and getting him to admit that he knew Kousaka beforehand would make him hand the solo over to Kaori. That is, if she even gave a thought to what may happen.

As to the second audition itself, what if Kaori is actually able to pull it off? There certainly are enough precedents where the underdog, through pure determination and hard work, is able to overcome all obstacles and end up the winner. Then what? Would they all praise Taki-sensei as being fair and just? Or would they hold firm to their accusations of him playing favorites?

As to teacher-student affairs, about six years after graduating from high school, I went back to my hometown for a visit. I happen to meet with the two sons of my high school band conductor, and they told me that their father had divorced and re-married. Not such a surprise, of course, this happens all the time. The big surprise was that they also told me that he had married a girl from the band who as a Senior when I was a Junior, and that, even while she was a Senior, they told me, that their father and the girl had been clandestinely having sex in dressing rooms behind the stage. So, don't think this kind of stuff doesn't happen, as I doubt that this is an isolated incident. And don't think that it's anything new as this story is about fifty years old.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

...She did sit in on every audition, leaving the impression that the decisions were jointly made, but she made to no effort to endorse those decisions in front of the band. She seems to be a figure with some authority in the eyes of the students so an intervention by her might have carried some weight..

This was another thought that occurred to me, as well. At the very least the band president should have thought of asking the Vice-Adviser for advice, or even her opinion about the auditions. Granted, she may have, but there is nothing to show either way.

[Irisiel]

Am I the only person who is starting to dislike Reina? I mean, her "my dream is to be a snowflake"-speech at the mountaintop was bad enough, but now, even though Yuko (who, yes, is immature and not handling this as she should, but at least she has the excuse for caring for her friend's last chance, and emotions in such cases aren't rational) is the one complaining (with Kaori trying to stop her), Reina goes on about how much better she is than Kaori.

In short, I feel that Reina's snowflake-artiste-dream-"I'm not like other girls" is an excuse for her to basically disregard the etiquette that makes teamwork, like in an orchestra, possible. She's already cold and unfriendly to others, but for her to lay into a beloved upperclassman like that?

Whether or not you want to make friends or play nice is immaterial, what you need to want is to make colleagues to play in an orchestra with. That includes not putting down a fellow player who clearly passed the auditions that reduced them to 53 people out of 55 possible for the competition ("can hardly play"? Way to have faith in Taki-sensei's judgement, Reina!).

What I want is for the second audition to have more than half the band pick Reina, and then have Taki-sensei go "Why? Kaori sounded better this time around", if only to teach Reina that being a good trumpet player is sometimes not enough when you're playing with others.

"I pried it out of my mom, that Taki-sensei was coming to this school." - Also, I'm side-eyeing this. Because either Reina's parents REALLY wanted her to go to a more prestigious school, even though their talented family friend weren't there. Or either they or Taki didn't want Reina in the same school as Taki (has Reina behaved badly when it comes to Taki in the past? To the extent of embarrassing her parents and/or Taki?).

[Pen3]

Maybe her "being special" is just for sensei to notice her and fall in love. The club and all their members come second hand as long as she can be fabulous and special.

Remember her playing out of turn in the Sunfest festival while other schools were marching? Sure it snapped them back to reality, but that could have them disqualified because it wasn't allowed. Besides I think Taki is more than capable of getting everyone focused again without breaking rules.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Irisiel

Reina goes on about how much better she is than Kaori.

That was completely in line with her yelling on Kumiko and Shuuichi in ep 3. She did it to protect Taki-sensei.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Irisiel

Reina goes on about how much better she is than Kaori.

She simply stated she is better than Kaori, not "much better". She didn't questioned why Kaori was selected but affirmed Taki's choice for the solo parts. That's a big difference.
Also, note that her rant about "complain only if you surpass me" was addressed to Yuuko, not Kaori. So her comments didn't belittle Kaori's skills to the slighest.

In short, I feel that Reina's snowflake-artiste-dream-"I'm not like other girls" is an excuse for her to basically disregard the etiquette that makes teamwork, like in an orchestra, possible. She's already cold and unfriendly to others, but for her to lay into a beloved upperclassman like that?

I don't see how she diresgarded the etiquette whatsoever. We are talking about the solo parts here, which is only dependant of the said trumpet player skill.
Furthermore, whereas Reina doesn't have an extrovert personality, she never acted "cold or unfriendly" towards others. She was plainly indifferent. Note that Yuuko was already antagonizing her -the very moment- Reina tried the trumpet when newcomers had to select an instrument.

Whether or not you want to make friends or play nice is immaterial, what you need to want is to make colleagues to play in an orchestra with. That includes not putting down a fellow player who clearly passed the auditions that reduced them to 53 people out of 55 possible for the competition ("can hardly play"? Way to have faith in Taki-sensei's judgement, Reina!).

Again, how does she "put down" Kaori here? The question isn't whether or not Kaori skills are enough for taking part of the band. Here, the matter is whether or not Taki's judgment is correct to appoint Reina as the solo trumpet instead of Kaori.
And her reaction towards Yuuko is definitely "reasonable" when you consider how disrespectful Yuuko was with her outburst. Furthermore, she didn't questioned Yuuko's skills in public, unlike Yuuko who delibaretely questioned Taki and Reina with her rant.

"I pried it out of my mom, that Taki-sensei was coming to this school." - Also, I'm side-eyeing this. Because either Reina's parents REALLY wanted her to go to a more prestigious school, even though their talented family friend weren't there. Or either they or Taki didn't want Reina in the same school as Taki (has Reina behaved badly when it comes to Taki in the past? To the extent of embarrassing her parents and/or Taki?).

Kitauji is not known for being a good school when it comes to music department, hence why people were impressed by the band performance during the SunFes. Considering Reina skills, it is no surprise her parents would expect her to go to a different school. Yet, she is at Kitauji so her parents respected her choice after all.

[Moroboshi-kun]

Originally Posted by GMT

If she wants to make it, then she has to lose the diva attitude and play nicely with others, or at least learn how to convince a hostile crowd that she means business ... hence the public vote.

Does not work this way. Competitive teams are not run on democracy. Either you agree with the boss or you walk, that's the way it goes.

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

If Reina and Kaori were basketball players and Taki was their coach, it would be obvious who the better player was through drills and scrimmages that the entire team would see.

They play in practices every day. Everybody knows already who is the better player. Problem arises from their history when seniority was prioritized over skills.

[Triple_R]

What we're seeing in this show is believably flawed and generally well-written characters. And as such, the conflicts in this show feel more raw, real, and honestly portrayed. Certain aspects of those conflicts may be played up a bit for the sake of greater drama, but they nonetheless reflect the real emotions of the characters involved, and those emotions resonate well with me given the circumstances playing into them.


It's clear that Reina is different, that she is an eccentric. She doesn't make friends easily, for whatever reason. My suspicion is that a lot a lot of the everyday stuff that interests many of her peers does not interest her as much. Reina can tell that she's different, not only in a musical talent sense, but also in what she cares about and is interested in. So once you recognize that you're different, one's desire for good self-esteem might kick in and try to turn that "different" into "special", as that has a more positive connotation but a somewhat similar meaning.

There's probably also some loneliness and resentment there. Reina might not have been intentionally ostracized, but it might feel like that to her, especially as she watches many of her peers carry on fun and easy friendships with each other.

Reina is strong in some ways, but I also see a girl badly in need of friendship and greater emotional support. This is probably the main reason why she has latched on to Kumiko so forcefully and intensely. Reina is desperate for a friend, for an age peer that can understand her and like her. Kumiko's words to Reina in earlier episodes helped pave the way to Reina reaching out to her.

Truthfully, Reina needs a friend more than she needs a romance. I see a lot of pain in Reina's face, and in her eyes, and in her mannerisms, when she hugged Kumiko in this episode. It might be easy to miss it through Reina's somewhat harsh pride, but the poor girl needs help and human warmth and comfort. Kumiko is fulfilling an absolutely essential role in Reina's life right now.

But this is mostly in the background, of course. Most of the other students in this band don't see it. Some of the students probably see Reina as a haughty snob. I can understand some of the students seeing that in Reina, but I think Reina is able to be something better than that, though at the moment her pride may in fact be her greatest flaw.

Then on the other hand you have the friendly and kind sempai Kaori, so the personality contrast isn't helping Reina any. And this is where we get to the flawed Yuuko, who has yet to learn where discretion and keeping your harshest opinions silent might be for the best at times. However, just like the flawed Reina has strong emotional core reasons for being the way she is, I suspect the same is true of Yuuko.


And all the other characters are flawed in their own ways. Some of the other characters are very kind but soft, and hence at times ineffectual. I see this with Haruka and Kaori.

Asuka is fun and charismatic and outgoing, but she's a bit like Reina in how I think she struggles to understand other people due to maybe not sharing the same interests and passions of most other people in most instances. It might be good for both Asuka and Reina if they became friends at some point.

Natsuki is admirably gracious in defeat and I think she's a naturally friendly person, but she can have motivation issues at times.

Kumiko is generally kind and thoughtful, but there's an awkwardness and slight jadedness there that comes up from time-to-time. But this is more a problem for Kumiko's own sense of self-worth and purpose than it is a problem for anybody else. Kumiko in fact seems to make friends very easily. I think she's well-liked, because she has a good mix of friendliness with just the right amount of openness.

Originally Posted by Moroboshi-kun

They play in practices every day. Everybody knows already who is the better player. Problem arises from their history when seniority was prioritized over skills.

The students are likely aware that Reina and Kaori are both good, but the difference between them (and the degree thereof) could escape their notice. When you're in a band practice, your primary focus is likely to be on making sure you do your own music well. You'll take some notice of fellow band members, but maybe not enough to note the difference in ability between "good" and "very good", or "very good" and "great".

This isn't quite the same as sports where you have multiple straightforward stats-based means of differentiating degrees of strength and quality.

It's not like you can just measure Reina's home runs and batting average against Kaori's.


That being said, you're probably right that the history of seniority taking main precedence is still playing a role in how the characters look at things. There's going to be growing pains the first year or two you bring in changes of this nature.

[mad_season]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

She simply stated she is better than Kaori, not "much better". She didn't questioned why Kaori was selected but affirmed Taki's choice for the solo parts. That's a big difference. Also, note that her rant about "complain only if you surpass me" was addressed to Yuuko, not Kaori. So her comments didn't belittle Kaori's skills to the slighest.

I know her rant was directed to Yuuko but it seems she was looking at Kaori?

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Kitauji is not known for being a good school when it comes to music department, hence why people were impressed by the band performance during the SunFes. Considering Reina skills, it is no surprise her parents would expect her to go to a different school. Yet, she is at Kitauji so her parents respected her choice after all.

Which really begs the question what is Taki-sensei doing in a not known school?

---

I'm hoping that Taki-sensei realizes what he has failed to do when he saw Yuuko sitting on the ground.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by mad_season

I know her rant was directed to Yuuko but it seems she was looking at Kaori?

Yuuko was pretty much on the same line of sight from Reina's position.

Which really begs the question what is Taki-sensei doing in a not known school?

There could many be many reasons really. Either because he wanted to see how pure amateurs could do if they were pushed a bit. It could be a favor done to someone (Michie seems to know him on a personal level as she knows his father at least).
His reason to take part of Kitauji band doesn't really seem relevant to what's going on.

I'm hoping that Taki-sensei realizes what he has failed to do when he saw Yuuko sitting on the ground.

Yuuko was bound to be upset no matter what he does aside of giving Kaori a second chance. I don't see how he could potentially make her satisfied the very moment she lashed that way.

[BBOvenGuy]

Originally Posted by Irisiel

Am I the only person who is starting to dislike Reina?

She's not an easy person to like. She's not trying to be.

Originally Posted by GMT

Reina only knows how to be intense or weird ... but on the other hand, it works because Kumiko totally gets that, and (mostly) only sees things for what they really are.

Now that I've slept on it, I know where else I've seen this kind of relationship recently. It's in both of the modern-day Sherlock Holmes/Dr. Watson relationships that have been on TV in recent years. Both the BBC's Benedict Cumberbatch/Martin Freeman version and CBS's Jonny Lee Miller/Lucy Liu version.

Meanwhile, it occurs to me that Kaori might be satisfied just with being able to play her best in front of everyone at the second audition. Yuko is the one who's all wrapped up in Kaori playing the solo for the competition.

And also...

Originally Posted by mad_season

Which really begs the question what is Taki-sensei doing in a not known school?

They haven't specified how old he is, so it could be that he's still considered too young to be at a school with a bigger reputation. Or possibly he's trying to prove he's his own musician, away from his father's shadow.

[Hidetoshi Nakata]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

She's not an easy person to like. She's not trying to be.



Now that I've slept on it, I know where else I've seen this kind of relationship recently. It's in both of the modern-day Sherlock Holmes/Dr. Watson relationships that have been on TV in recent years. Both the BBC's Benedict Cumberbatch/Martin Freeman version and CBS's Jonny Lee Miller/Lucy Liu version.

Meanwhile, it occurs to me that Kaori might be satisfied just with being able to play her best in front of everyone at the second audition. Yuko is the one who's all wrapped up in Kaori playing the solo for the competition.

And also...



They haven't specified how old he is, so it could be that he's still considered too young to be at a school with a bigger reputation. Or possibly he's trying to prove he's his own musician, away from his father's shadow.

Taki-Sensei 34 years

[SuitUp]

Taki screwed up, when you're the head coach, you should not tollerate rebellion, you make the choices and your choices are final, if you cave in to rebellion you make yourself seem weakwilled and most likely your underlings won't listen to you after that, the proper course of action would have been to afirm his choices, his authority (my way or the highway) and continue his schedule as planned, a competitve club is not a pity party, nor it is a democracy... (Yeah, my experience with coaching comes from football, as you can tell from my stance)
On the Asuka thing, I doubt her not caring attitude is a façade, in any case the cheerful act is the façade, she's most likely a very empty(for lack of a better word) person who realizes just how out of place she would be if she were to be herself and tries to be social to get by, so I could buy that she doesn't give a shit about who plays the solo part...

[Hidetoshi Nakata]

Now I noticed the title of the episode.
Does he have something to do with Reina admitting his feelings for Taki-Sensei.