[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Maybe the servants wouldn't chat with Genji, but I'll bet Kumasawa heard about everything that happened around that mansion. And Genji would have the authority needed to do something about it.

Sure, but as you said yourself, there are many servants, and rumours spread as fast as common cold, and I'm sure a cross-dresser would be a big topic.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Again, what do you mean by "convenient"?

Convenient as in 3x1. I don't get that even for my pizzas!
Now, jokes aside. 3 characters in one. I can easily bypass the head-count. I can also bypass death. Conveniently, no one ever noticed they were the same person. So, everyone got fooled.

I'll be honest, the biggest reason why it annoys me is because I feel as if my efforts were wasted. I thought R07 wouldn't really resort to this type of device, even if I did notice it long ago. You can call me butthurt if you want.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Why does Shannon being Kanon make it less likely that she has another personality? If we assume that the Beatrice personality was the first one, then it seems clear that Sayo likes playing pranks. What better prank than tricking everyone into thinking that you're a guy? Maybe that's how Kanon started, but he continued for other reasons. It almost sounds like you're saying Ryuukishi was too good at creating a puzzle...

Oh yes, if we go by DID, nothing prevents the main personality to have several alters. Did you know one woman had about 54 personalities? Interesting, no? All the same, as an answer, I just don't like it. What else do you want me to say, mate?

Anyway, if the reason is it was all a prank, I swear I'll cry.

As for R07 and puzzles, he's not bad. Honestly, I'm completely lost with the epitaph. Personally, I think the Taiwan theory makes a lot of sense. And, if the Taiwan theory is proved right, I'll be honest and say I'd never have been able to figure it out. But, all the same, that's a puzzle I've enjoyed.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

As long as the process that led to the three personalities is logical and realistic and has been hinted at in the story, what's not to like?
We don't know what this actual process is yet.

The problem is not really the process, it'd be simply the fact this was the answer. That's it.

Anyhow, mate, I've enjoyed discussing with you, I'm being honest, but can we please drop this argument? I feel as if we're going in circles, since we're arguing about tastes. Let's just agree to disagree, okay? I'll give you cookies.

[Arkwright]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Does said hint have to be in the exact same scene? If we already know that Kanon and Shannon are the same person from other information, that counts as a hint. Remember, the game couldn't be solved until EP4, so it has to be true that information from other games can be used as a hint. We don't know whether this lie is being told to Erika or someone else, so the detective being present is of no consequence.

By the same reasoning, we already know from other information that Kinzo is already dead, so it should be unnecessary to provide a new hint. But despite that (or perhaps because of that) it is still apparently necessary to say that Erika did not look anywhere else except at the mechanism. So, I don't believe that it's acceptable to show an illusion while the detective is around unless there is an explanation in the same scene.

[ijriims]

There were two forms of Shkanon theory:

One is Shannon=Kanon before 4th Oct, 1986. Subtypes include that either Kanon was just a persona living inside Shannon (or vice versa), or Kanon/Shannon was a shadow servant created by mutual lies, or Kanon was imposing as Shannon before the family meeting.

Regardless of which subtype it is, since Battler (detective in EP1-4) had seen both Kanon(Yoshiya) and Shannon(Sayo) separately during EP1-4 (except EP3), it meant that one of them had to impose as the other. Considering their frames, it should be the case that Yoshiya was imposing as Sayo. This first type of Shkanon theory entailed that Shannon was nonexistent or dead before Oct 4th. It also meant that Kanon's makeup had successfully deceived George when he was proposing. However, is it believable at all?

Additionally, one has to offer a reason why Kanon needed to impose as Shannon or create a split personality at all, or why everyone would agree to cover the death of Shannon?

This first type of Shkanon theory can be summarized as "Yoshiya as the real person, Shannon and Sayo only as a separate persona or impersonification by Yoshiya, which all started before 4Oct 1986"


The second type of Shkanon theory is that Shannon=Kanon between the period of Oct4th and 5th. This meant that during these two days, one of them died after interacting with Battler. So there was no need for any cross-dressing involved if Battler never saw that person again (well in this case, it was Yoshiya).

Plausible reason can be offered for this type of Shkanon theory like Kanon was killed during the meeting and because Shannon did not want to alert other people, she hid Yoshiya's death. And because she only needed to hide his death for two days' time, it was more practicable than someone imposing as the others for two years. Also, George was not an idiot in this case because it was Sayo in person but not Yoshiya in disguise.

To summarize, this 2nd type of Shkanon theory is "Shannon lied about Yoshiya's presence after Battler had seen him. Of course this happened during the family meeting."


I accpeted the 2nd type of Shkanon theory but not the 1st type. And additionally, Shkanon theory does not apply in EP1,3,4 and 5. It is true in EP6 and possibly in EP2.

What do you guys think?

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Copy pasta from the image thread since its very relevant here. First off, I will include the quote because, well, I feel like it. Then there is a long rant about how some theory might be true.

Originally Posted by Aebliss

Spoiler for speculation:

If Shannon is actually flat-chested, it would explain why she was so terrified of Battler feeling her up, back in the first episode. Afraid to disappoint the boy who said he'd be the knight on the white horse for her? Oh! - what if Shannon was actually an effeminate boy who Battler mistook for a girl, and who developed strong enough feelings for Battler that he decided to become one for him? Might that be Battler's sin? And would it explain Shannon not getting together sexually with George while they were on vacation together? But it doesn't explain all the scenes where Kannon and Shannon are shown together, does it?

Heh.

Spoiler for long rambling and stuff:

Now you make me wish Battler had at least touched those tits . But you know, Shanon and Kanon have never been shown together before anyone who can be counted upon for a neutral observation (aka the detective, I fucking hate the word though) and even if they were, it doesn't count unless all 17 people in the island were together and right there and then the "detective" confirmed the existence of all 17. Erika did have something like an assembly in Ep 5 but by then, 6 people were already missing/playing dead/actually dead so its not unthinkable that one of them posed as Shanon/Kanon in the parlor. Its not like Erika felt them up personally.

Spoiler:

Although I can so see her doing that lol....that girl would put tapes on windows in a swimsuit under a typhoon....imagine her feeling Kanon's wiener to check if he is a male

And that assembly is told from Battler's POV to begin with, he saw Kinzo in epi 5 so its acceptable for him to see a non-existent Kanon/Shanon in the room while Erika is busy coercing Natsuhi.

I would laugh if it turns out to be a boy who posed as a girl for however many years but then there would be a question as to the motive (solved if Shkanon is the child Kinzo gave to Natsuhi, gets spicier if he is actually the child of the Beatrice who died in 1967 or of Asumu/Kyrie and further spicier if Kinzo had planned to make him the head all along but went insane/died before shit turned true) but I don't like the theory and even if it turns out true, the other side, Shanon posing as Kanon has a stronger whydunnit (i.e, the motive, Erika style!), she was abused by Kinzo and created Kanon as her confidant/brother protector/whatever.

Actually, now that I think about it, its possible for Kinzo to have forced the male child to act like Beatrice simply because he was her offspring, I mean, I wouldn't put it past "that" Kinzo lol. That would be a much stronger whydunnit then. Geez Kinzo was a beast. Along comes Battler, who says he will become her knight (while he was is she mode ofc) and "she" falls in love with him. Hmm, credible enough. Now as to why everyone in the Mansion goes with him, first off, Krauss and Natsuhi can't do crap because as a one-winged-eagle-bearing servant, Kanon/whoever knows of Kinzo's death and possibly even the fact that he was chosen to be the next head, which explains Kinzo's appearance in episode 4. And also, if he is indeed the child from 1967, he could easily force Natsuhi to do as he wants, which means all the servants are directly under his control and Krauss is just an airhead anyway.

The big problem lies with Jessica but hey, she is a Tsundere who has no other person her age in the island, I can totally see her becoming friends/lover with Kanon/whoever and then agreeing to protect his secret in exchange for a life outside Rokkenjima. Actually, that would add to the whydunnit, He wants to forget his scarred past but that's not possible as long as the Ushiromiyas exist and he has a lover who wants to live off the island as well. She could even be the "Beatrice" of his delusions. I support this idea with all that "another person within you" talk Jessica gives confidently and how she keeps supporting the frail Kanon/shy Shanon; enough to make her a witch for the psycho that Kanon would be by that point.

The only other person who wouldn't fall for it would be George but if Kanon could fool Battler, George shouldn't be that different, or he could simply be an accomplice. He wants to get up and above his parent's restrictions and all that "castle" shit would be possible if he were to get the gold; Jessica and Kanon have no desire for the gold so its easy to buy George off. Also, Kanon falls in love with George for growing mature rapidly by believing her to be an actual girl (when was it said that George had any problems with taking a male for a female anyway?? Sounds like he would totally do it, what with the blood of Kinzo and demon king references) and now Kanon and Shanon are fighting between their love for Jessica and George. Up until this point, Kanon primarily viewed Jessica as Shanon's friend but now he is forced to accept that he loves her but as you know, he is too scarred to actually admit it.

Let's add more credit, Genji is the faithful servant type, by being chosen by Kinzo as the next head/being Beatrice's child, Kanon has earned his obligations.

Kumasawa feels for Kanon (heck, she could even be the servant Natsuhi pushed, I mean, its not like it was explicitly stated that they both died, its just something Natsuhi believed to be the case (even the whole down the cliff I pushed them could be a delusion, Natsuhi could simply have snapped at Kumasawa and got scolded for that by Kinzo, to her, it became as such, this woman is after all a woman who can create Kinzo within her head >.>)). Or the old "witch" could be in for the gold, its quite apparent that she was trying to solve the epitaph which means she was interested in either the gold or the solution, which Kanon knew ofc.

Gohda is already explained by everyone else mutually lying (I mean the big guy truly believes Kinzo is alive ...) but even he has a reason to believe in Shanon and Kanon being different people, he gets to slack off as he wants.

Nanjo can be bought with money for his granddaughter. Or he can be threatened. Or he simply sympathizes with the boy. Or he had something to do with Beatrice (I simply don't see him being taken to Kuwadorian for no reason) and thus feels guilty enough to aid this boy. Or he follows the boy because of Kinzo's last wish, for the boy to become the next head of the family. Either of these or all together or any combination.

Now onto other characters. They don't really matter as they come around only once in a while but there is enough motive for them to accept Kanon and Shanon as separate beings as well.

Eva can be taken in by either promising her the headship or the gold or simply because her beloved son is in love/league with Kanon.

Rudolf can be taken in by this : Beatrice had a son with him and that son is Kanon. Or, he could also be taken in with money (heck everyone of the adults has a pressing need for quick cash) or because Kanon knows the secret Rudolf has kept from Kyrie and Battler.

Rosa can be taken in because she killed Beatrice, Kanon's mother. Or she can be taken in with money. Or she can be taken in for Maria's sake. Or she can be taken in with charm (she wants a boyfriend who would truly accept Maria -_-).
Of course, all of these are "and/or" rather than simply "or", these motives needn't be mutually exclusive.

Hideyoshi can be taken in because of Eva and/or George. Or he is simply moved by the boy's struggle (after all, he himself had a very difficult life). Or he is bought with money as well. Or he is threatened. Or he simply thinks of it as a harmless prank or recurring gag which helps settle the dark atmosphere a bit and thus doesn't oppose it. Or he is just very interested in seeing what this super wise boy would do (after all, the fucker is interested in strategists xD).

Kyrie is an interesting character and obviously, the biggest obstacle for this farce. But with her love for Rudolf which translates to need for money, its pretty easy. Furthermore, the bitch could be involved with all that 19 year ago shit. Or Kanon simply knows all that she did to Asumu or some secret that she wants to know. Of course, even this shrewd bitch has no choice but to yield if Kanon claims himself or any other person to be "Beatrice".

Maria is just a retarded kid who needs some loving, easy to become the witch for her. And he even has the support of all the adults, a child is easy prey with that much of an overwhelming assertion. Also, Rosa would act friendlier with Maria when he is around therefore making Maria believe he is the witch who brings happiness. And he could have grown attached to the kid which explains her peaceful deaths.

With that, all that remains is Battler lol. Wow, he sure got himself into a mess rofl. Ushiromiya family is a pit that you should stay out of as much as possible, but he crawled out of it alone, left behind the boy he mistook for a girl and yet came back. Kanon might have simply accepted it to be unshakable fate until he came to know Battler would be back in the island which triggered his fuse. Its easy for Beatrice to not exist six years ago because the real Beatrice, Kanon's mom was dead and the other had yet to be created by Kanon, who becomes Beatrice is of no concern anymore, he could have anyone out of the 16 become Beatrice. Basically, he is the gamemaster aka Meta Beatrice. Or who knows, maybe he has someone else controlling him, emo kids are easy to handle for shrewd women after all. But yeah, Kanon has enough reasons to become Shanon and has enough power to make that existence concrete, magic or not.

So whodunnit? Kanon, with however many accomplices he wanted.

And whydunnit? For revenge, for love (with either one is fine), to become human from furniture (that is, to get a fresh start and forget all the scars), for simple belief that his mom would be resurrected if he followed the epitaph, for insanity's sake, for Kinzo's last wish (doesn't sound like he was remorseful to Kinzo personally despite all that happened) and take charge or because he was disgusted with how his children were all but vultures BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY BECAUSE BATTLER IS THERE AND HE WANTS TO SHOW HIM HOW HE HAS BECOME/CREATED BEATRICE AND WANTS HIM TO REPENT FOR HIS SIN OF FORGETTING THE PROMISE. FURTHERMORE, MAYBE BECAUSE THEY WERE RELATED SOMEHOW, MAYBE THIS BATTLER IS ALSO FROM FUKUIN HOUSE AND GIVEN TO RUDOLF FOR ADOPTION AND HOW ABOUT HE WAS THE TWIN FROM BEATRICE LOL. Yeah, lots of room for improvisation but the point is that there is enough reason for him to cause all of this.

Spoiler:

Actually, FOR FUCKING SPARTA!

So howdunnit? Wow this seems disgustingly easy now. He had the reins of every damned character in his hands! He could simply toy with them as he pleases, have someone support him to eliminate their mutual enemies but then eliminate the helper. Nobody would speak because everyone suspects that everyone else is in league. Basically, its so easy for him to have done any of the murders and there is no need for any of the red to be broken. I mean, give me any damned scenario, the chapel? Heck he had control over all the adults, he could kill them however he wanted, maybe he used poison or something and had them close the door on their own. Or he had the six killed, the rest help him with all the decoration, everyone but one (any fucking one) stays inside until they come with Battler and open the freaking door whereby the other person would mix in/escape. Basically, each and everyone of the murder is very easily doable because he has every freaking body except Battler for accomplice.

So what stops this theory from solving the game? Fucking common sense >.> although I doubt that applies to Umineko at all. And besides, this theory solves the game so easily, its creepy. There is enough room to explain even events such as the money the surviving relatives received, it was simply advance payment/insurance to everyone to buy them in. Yeah, this theory holds a lot of weight but I still don't see this being the real solution, blame me for being prejudiced. And most of this theory can be explained either way, it doesn't really matter if its Shanon posing as Kanon or vice-versa although, at the moment, it seems to me as though Kanon posing as Shanon holds more credit because the child given to Natsuhi was a male, it explains the tits and all

Yeah, that's for

Spoiler:

SHKANON(TRICE)

. Now I will go through the games again and see what's actually happening since I don't believe this bullshit.

[Antera Caramichael]

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Now you make me wish Battler had at least touched those tits . But you know, Shanon and Kanon have never been shown together before anyone who can be counted upon for a neutral observation (aka the detective, I fucking hate the word though) and even if they were, it doesn't count unless all 17 people in the island were together and right there and then the "detective" confirmed the existence of all 17. Erika did have something like an assembly in Ep 5 but by then, 6 people were already missing/playing dead/actually dead so its not unthinkable that one of them posed as Shanon/Kanon in the parlor. Its not like Erika felt them up personally

Spoiler for Theory destroying =p:

But the fact is that the eighteen people present on the island were confirmed as we saw them all in one room: At the begining of EP5, when Erika was presented to the family. Actually, it was there that the Sh/Kanon theory was crushed because we saw them together and from all the points of view possible: Both Battler, Erika and the rest of the guests present. It was also there that we implicitely discovered that the mysterious man from 19 years ago was one of the family member or at least not an outside character.
Moreover, Beatrice stated in the first game that no body double corpse were used, which also crushed the theory of another person disguised as Shanon in the storehouse in Ep1 or in the parlor in EP3.
I think Sh/Kanon theory as a big trap personnally. Actually, everyone in counting on this theory in order to explain the riddle There are no more and no less than 17 people on the island. but I wonder if it is not leading the goat to the cleaf...
By the way, is it stated that this sentence apply on all the games? Because it also can be only for Ep6...

[Kamar]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Ah, there we go, thank you.

Then either the closed room itself is faked (and there are many ways to do this. Like Battler says, we need to read more detective novels) or the perpetrator (one of the first twilight victims, most likely Shannon) is still inside the room when the others enter.

Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael

Spoiler for Theory destroying =p:

But the fact is that the eighteen people present on the island were confirmed as we saw them all in one room: At the begining of EP5, when Erika was presented to the family. Actually, it was there that the Sh/Kanon theory was crushed because we saw them together and from all the points of view possible: Both Battler, Erika and the rest of the guests present. It was also there that we implicitely discovered that the mysterious man from 19 years ago was one of the family member or at least not an outside character.
Moreover, Beatrice stated in the first game that no body double corpse were used, which also crushed the theory of another person disguised as Shanon in the storehouse in Ep1 or in the parlor in EP3.
I think Sh/Kanon theory as a big trap personnally. Actually, everyone in counting on this theory in order to explain the riddle There are no more and no less than 17 people on the island. but I wonder if it is not leading the goat to the cleaf...
By the way, is it stated that this sentence apply on all the games? Because it also can be only for Ep6...

The 'everyone in one room' scene was from Battler's PoV, which was proven unreliable due to him not being the detective in the ????.

[Antera Caramichael]

But like I said, Erika the detective was also there. If Shanon wasn't there during that scene, don't you think she would be sceptical about this?
I mean, like Forsaken said, Shanon and Kanon were also reunited later, after the first twilight and there was no fake in it.

[Kamar]

But does the detective automatically look for clues? I was under the impression that while she'll find any that exist if she looks for them, she has to know to look for them.

I don't see any reason she would look for evidence that they are the same or separate, as she has no reason to suspect; piece Erika might not even know there are supposed to be two different "On" servents.

[Antera Caramichael]

Well, in any cases, both Battler before the first twilight and Erika after saw them as two different entities in the same place, right in front of their eyes. Even if one of them was not objective, it don't change this fact.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael

Well, in any cases, both Battler before the first twilight and Erika after saw them as two different entities in the same place, right in front of their eyes. Even if one of them was not objective, it don't change this fact.

Where in the game did it ever say that Erika saw two different entities? Give me a specific scene shown from her perspective.

By the same reasoning, we already know from other information that Kinzo is already dead, so it should be unnecessary to provide a new hint. But despite that (or perhaps because of that) it is still apparently necessary to say that Erika did not look anywhere else except at the mechanism. So, I don't believe that it's acceptable to show an illusion while the detective is around unless there is an explanation in the same scene.

I'm not following your logic here. You're pointing out one single scene where they do show a hint and using that to argue that there must be a hint in every scene. I think it's much more likely that the hint in this scene was just that: a hint. This was added in to help us readers figure out how falsehoods work, not because it had to be.

Sure, but as you said yourself, there are many servants, and rumours spread as fast as common cold, and I'm sure a cross-dresser would be a big topic.

You make it sound like there were dozens of servants on the island all the time. We know from EP1 that even 5 servants at once was more than usual, right? If Genji or Kumasawa was there most of the time that Sayo was, you're talking about "a rumor spreading" between 1 or 2 people. Yeah, I do think that could be handled over a period of 3 years, especially when the servants came and left all the time.

So you say "resort to this type of device" even though there are only two suspicious parts to this story: Jessica not figuring it out, and no one figuring it out during the family conference.
Servants were few in number and could easily be fired if they found out. Krauss never paid any attention to the servants. Natsuhi always looked down on them, especially Shannon. So as long as Ryuukishi can create a convincing explanation for why Jessica wasn't fooled (or didn't care) and why Kanon wasn't found out during the family conference, this isn't unbelievable at all.

[chronotrig]

The problem is not really the process, it'd be simply the fact this was the answer. That's it.

Sorry to keep pressing on this, but it's the reason I'm doing all this in the first place, so please let me explain myself. You're perfectly at liberty to disagree with me on whether it was a good device or not, but I think it's more productive and more fun to look at things in a different light.

Try turning the chessboard over. So far, has there ever been a time when Ryuukishi included an element in his story that was unrealistic? Actually, yes: the existence of the Hinamizawa Syndrome, Hanyuu and a few more minor things. However, both of those at least followed the rules of common sense. If you can accept that Hanyuu and the Hinamizawa Syndrome exist, the rest of the story all follows logically for the most part, more logically than just about any series I've seen for a long time.

In other words, Ryuukishi would not announce the Shkanon theory unless he believed it could be accomplished realistically. And Ryuukishi has had a good track record on making things realistic. So, what I felt when I saw the Shkanon theory (which I was never a big fan of) presented in the game was this:

Ryuukishi must have found a way to make that plot device actually work.

And as the arguments everyone has raised make perfectly clear, that would be no easy task. In other words, and please correct me if I'm wrong, a big part of your argument is "there is no realistic way to make Shkanon work, so it's a cheap plot device". My argument is "Ryuukishi not only used it, but looks like he's extremely proud of it (unless he's trolling us again). Therefore, there must be some way to make it work that none of us have thought of yet."

The reason I've been disagreeing with so many of you isn't because I think Shkanontrice is necessarily correct. I'm just trying to see if there is any way to use Shkanon to create a good and solid storyline. So far, I think I've given parts of just one possible solution that gets pretty close.

[Antera Caramichael]

My vision of this theory is that is actually too obvious. It is one of the first theory for resolving the people number problem. And there, we have more and more clues that it can be true? I can't stop thinking this might be a big troll where everyone would be deceived, because everyone thinks this is the most logical answer to the 17 people problem...

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael

My vision of this theory is that is actually too obvious. It is one of the first theory for resolving the people number problem. And there, we have more and more clues that it can be true? I can't stop thinking this might be a big troll where everyone would be deceived, because everyone thinks this is the most logical answer to the 17 people problem...

Well, making the theory in the first place might be pretty obvious, but actually getting it to work out realistically is a whole different matter. First off, you must figure out how "falsehoods" work if you want to explain the scenes with both Shannon and Kanon. Also, there are certain hints towards the theory that do not apply unless you use the full Shkanontrice.

1. The beginning of EP2. Shannon claims that she has never "seen" Beatrice, but EP2 shows several scenes of her and Kanon meeting with Beatrice. If that Beatrice was someone in disguise, she would have just mentioned it when talking about those ghost stories. In other words, it works out most simply if that Beatrice was something inside of her own head. Not only does that explain the EP2 scene, but it's almost exactly the same thing we're shown in EP5 with Beatrice and Natsuhi (notice that Natsuhi wasn't mentally handicapped in any way).

2. The test. The truth is, Battler never sees what tests George and Jessica were given, but if Shkanontrice is true, all three tests were exactly the same: 1. Your life 2. Sayo's life 3. Everyone else's lives. If you just use Shkanon, this pattern isn't as apparent.

[Antera Caramichael]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Where in the game did it ever say that Erika saw two different entities? Give me a specific scene shown from her perspective.

I come back a little^^
If we were to this, then we should doubt of each scenes. We saw Kanon having a reaction "That damn witch" and after Shanon's, the completely opposite "Is it really Beatrice-sama doing?". So, exept if they said to Erika that Sh/Kanon is Shcisophrene...

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael

I come back a little^^
If we were to this, then we should doubt of each scenes. We saw Kanon having a reaction "That damn witch" and after Shanon's, the completely opposite "Is it really Beatrice-sama doing?". So, exept if they said to Erika that Sh/Kanon is Shcisophrene...

It isn't the opposite reaction. She isn't saying "Yeah, well I doubt that". It's more like "Are we absolutely sure?" The Japanese is a little more specific to this second meaning.

There's no evidence that this scene was taken from Erika's perspective. Therefore, if Erika didn't hear what Shannon mumbled and someone in the room still wanted to keep up the Shkanon lie, this scene could be shown. Remember, George and Jessica aren't in the room, but they're probably alive at this point. This could be hearsay passed on to them.

Yes, we know that we should doubt all of the scenes. The game has made it quite clear that these were the rules ever since "Kinzo is dead" appeared in EP4.

[Arkwright]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

The reason I've been disagreeing with so many of you isn't because I think Shkanontrice is necessarily correct. I'm just trying to see if there is any way to use Shkanon to create a good and solid storyline. So far, I think I've given parts of just one possible solution that gets pretty close.

I have no problems with trying to work it out. Actually, originally I liked the Shannon = Kanon theory. But when I realized that the Ep3 first twilight red truth seemed to shut out the possibility, I mostly dismissed the idea and forgot about it. So I won't really feel satisfied if I don't bring my thoughts on these lines all the way through.

Well, all right. I'll try to tie together all my reasoning. Here's another way to say it.

The story we are told is not a purely subjective tale written entirely from the perspective of one person at a time. Instead it is a reconstruction based on the testimony provided by all of the individuals involved. When all individuals present agree to lie about what happened in a particular scene, that is the interpretation shown to the reader.

However, if too many people present offer testimony which differs from the person who claims a lie, it becomes difficult to impossible to present the lie to the reader. That is the practical meaning of the magic-resisting toxin.

Furthermore, the central character (detective) of the story has an incredibly high level of "toxin." Any testimony they provide will override testimony provided by other characters, and it becomes impossible to present an untruth to the reader when the detective's version of the scene will eliminate that possibility. Thus, in order to present a lie to the reader in a scene where the detective is present, it is necessary to offer an explanation not for why the liar believes the lie, but for why the detective did not offer their own testimony.

By this reasoning, based mostly on information provided in episodes 1-4, we can come to an understanding of the detective that is very close to what is presented in episode 5 regarding the infallibility of the detective.

Also, allow me to offer a thought on what red truth means.

Red truth is the representation of a verifiable, objective fact. Whether or not the fact is discovered, what is important is that the fact could be discovered by a perfect observer, armed with scientific tools and impeccable attention to detail.

This is supported by the ability of Erika to have her own observations elevated to the status of red truth. As an embodiment of the perfect observer, her own claims are the same thing as objective facts, and are treated as such.

In Episode 5, it was stated that the red truth could not be used to identify Kinzo's corpse. Other corpses can be identified in red, even if it was impossible to objectively test them to determine their identity without tools from outside the island, because they were once alive on the island after the start of the game, and from that point onwards, it is possible for a perfect observer to track their movements. Doing so will lead to a point in time where a living person must have directly become a corpse. This was impossible in Kinzo's case, because he was never alive on the island and thus there was no way for an observer with no access to the outside world to track his movements and find proof that the dead Kinzo was the same person as the living Kinzo.

In this way there are no problems with the red truth that exists thus far. While some red truth covers material outside the scope of the game world, a perfect observer in that location would have been able to verify those claims.

In episode 5, when Natsuhi is shown to be having tea with Beatrice, Bernkastel claims in red that Natsuhi is alone. This is possible because a perfect observer could have recognized that Natsuhi was alone, even though no one else was present at that time.

This is a single self-enclosed scene shown to the reader. Even though these scenes occur outside the scope of the game board, lies can be included and exposed, changing the reality that is presented. However, a lie that stretches across the boundary between October 3rd and 4th cannot be objectively denied, because when a lie exists in the game board it can only be denied using objective proof available on the game board.

By this reasoning, anything in red should be able to be taken at face value as an objective fact. As far as we know, there is no red truth in the story that cannot be taken at face value - while the consequences of the red truth (such as time of death) may not be what we initially expect, the basis of how it is presented has never been shaken, and after we know the truth we should always be able to read the red without having to bend its meaning.

Regarding the possibility that Kanon and Shannon exist as the same person but also as two people:

If Kanon and Shannon are treated as two people for the purposes of the red truth, there is no way for a perfect observer to witness the corpses collected in the first twilight and see six people. There is also no way to confirm the "death" of a personality or other concept. Because of these non-objective elements, it should have been impossible to state this red truth if that is the interpretation that was intended. Thus, Shannon and Kanon must be different people.

Now to go back to something you said a bit earlier.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Oh, and you can't just ignore the other "dead" rules. Remember that the blue truth is needed to win the game. In other words, unless you can provide an explanation for why Beato used the word 'dead', a theory cannot be successful. Also, if that explanation isn't convincing and supported by hints and foreshadowing in several other scenes, that theory is much weaker than Shkanon.

Just to illustrate why I dislike taking red truth at anything other than face value, I will offer a different possible truth that requires less of a stretch than Shannon = Kanon does.

Battler is the culprit in all games! Knox's rules do not necessarily apply to episodes 1-4, so the detective can be the culprit. When Virgilia said Battler was not the culprit, she was referring to another Battler: Ushiromiya Jessica. The same applies to Eva-Beatrice's red truth in episode 3. Her reasoning for saying this was to ease his concerns about why Beatrice was running the game for him, and to allow Battler to come to this realization in his own time - like Obi-wan, rather than tell him outright, she lied simply because she felt it was not necessary for him to know until he could fully understand it on his own.

As an alternate theory along the same lines, Battler has been dead from before the start of all games! He died when he fell off the boat on the way to Rokkenjima and drowned. All of the games from then onward have been a vision of his soul in Purgatory as he witnesses the effects his life has had on the people around him, and to atone for the sin that drove his family to mass murder. The narrator Battler was simply an illusion or a view through the eyes of a different character, and any references to Battler in red referred to a personality inside of Jessica instead.

It has been stated that Natsuhi and Krauss were unable to create a child for a long time. Furthermore, Kinzo apparently cared enough to provide a child to the couple 19 years ago. It is certainly possible that he gave it another try. When Rudolf fathered two children at the same time, to save the family's honor, Kinzo intervened and forced one of the children to be given to Krauss and Natsuhi. It may even be possible that the only people who knew this happened were Krauss, Natsuhi, Kinzo, and Nanjo. Asumu could have been told that the male Battler was her baby, and Kyrie was told that hers was stillborn (as the official wife, Kinzo decided to give Asumu the right.) And while Natsuhi initially hated the concept of caring for another mother's child, she eventually grew to love Jessica as her own daughter, similar to how she grew to love Krauss.

The female Battler was given a new name to hide her status, and lived as Jessica. Stifled at times under her strict supervision, Jessica developed a separate personality where she could do what she wanted without the shackles of her responsibilities as the next head - this is the personality called Battler.

I strongly dislike a theory that makes Battler the culprit, or dead before the game starts, but I would say that they do have as much or more going for them in terms of hints and foreshadowing as the Shannon = Kanon theory.

Yes, there can be more than one solution. I just really feel uncomfortable going into this territory. Denying the basis, even for a seemingly good reason, is something that I do not want to accept. Because it feels like I can't accept that I can't solve a crossword puzzle as it is presented to me, so I get upset and cross out the boxes that I can't fill in and say "there, I did it."

So unless I can find an example that suggests any red truth is not what it says at face value, I'm inclined to say that it should not be bent.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, making the theory in the first place might be pretty obvious, but actually getting it to work out realistically is a whole different matter. First off, you must figure out how "falsehoods" work if you want to explain the scenes with both Shannon and Kanon. Also, there are certain hints towards the theory that do not apply unless you use the full Shkanontrice.

1. The beginning of EP2. Shannon claims that she has never "seen" Beatrice, but EP2 shows several scenes of her and Kanon meeting with Beatrice. If that Beatrice was someone in disguise, she would have just mentioned it when talking about those ghost stories. In other words, it works out most simply if that Beatrice was something inside of her own head. Not only does that explain the EP2 scene, but it's almost exactly the same thing we're shown in EP5 with Beatrice and Natsuhi (notice that Natsuhi wasn't mentally handicapped in any way).

2. The test. The truth is, Battler never sees what tests George and Jessica were given, but if Shkanontrice is true, all three tests were exactly the same: 1. Your life 2. Sayo's life 3. Everyone else's lives. If you just use Shkanon, this pattern isn't as apparent.

Hmm, what do you think of my version of the theory? I basically listed enough reasons for everyone other than Battler to go along with his/her farce. It would be pretty easy to pull that off with everyone but one new guy willing to accept both of your persona as separate beings.

As for 1) Even if she saw Beatrice, there is no reason why she should announce it, I wouldn't announce a meeting with a witch even if it was real -_-. Furthermore, even if the Beatrice she summons is something she created inside her own head, it would still count as seeing her because following your logic, Natsuhi accepts the existence of Beatrice as the alchemy counselor to be completely true and validates her own actions because Beatrice admitted her as her master. In other words, if you don't even believe you have met the witch, there is no way you could go on with the illusion to the point of believing a man was entranced with you thanks to the magic of the witch. But I guess where I am getting at is that its perfectly fine for someone else to be Beatrice and Shkanon to still be the culprit who is either in league with Beatrice or created that Beatrice in the first place. But I agree that given all the hints, the most likely scenario is that Kshanon was the child of Beatrice that died in 1967(doesn't have to be exactly that Beatrice, any woman would fit in as long as Kinzo accepted her as Beatrice, Kyrie, Asumu, you name it and it doesn't have be that Kinzo was the father, Beatrice was most likely a convenient story cooked up by Kinzo to hide the darkest truths of the Ushiromiyas but he got so absorbed by the tale that he had a girl he fell for become Beatrice, explains why the Beatrice Rosa met had the same features as the portrait) who could or not be the child Natsuhi apparently killed but was raised in secret and appointed as the next head by Kinzo (Ep 5, Natsuhi later on admits that Kinzo was actually concerned about the child and didn't do all that insane laugh thing), which makes him/her hold the mandate to have everyone accept him/her as the new Kinzo (explains Ep 4), have direct control over all the servants except Gohda (and that automatically pulls Gohda in since he still believes Kinzo is alive; also explains why Shkanon dislikes Gohda), enough pressure to have Krauss and Natsuhi give in to his/her farce, enough resources/power to buy in/threaten every remaining adult (he/she most likely also knows the secrets of everyone, and they all have one or two they can't share) and enough charms to entice Jessica and George. Maria is "small fry". And there have been enough hints as to why s/he wants Battler to repent, it could be the pony theory, it could also be that Battler was also from Fukuuin house (maybe even their twin?) and their sin six years ago was either the promise or unintentional murder of the other Ushiromiya Battler, who could also be Shkanon (because his mother needs not be the Beatrice that Rosa unintentionally murdered, anyone would do as long as Kinzo would hide that birth) or something. Yeah, either of those reasons is valid.

As for 2) There were two beatrices during the test right? This makes me think of two possibilities, either s/he literally had another person posing as Beatrice alongside him/her or he/she flipped a mental switch. Either one could be true but if we are to actually consider Battler competent, it has to be the second. As for Shkanon making the test not as apparent as Shkanontrice, it doesn't really matter who is Beatrice because Battler was given a blank slate to fill the name with. As long as Beatrice works for Shkanon, the test is simply to see if Battler likes them. Also, I don't think Jessica and George were even given a test tbh, it could simply be something like "Sorry, but I love Battler instead" and the confrontation that followed ended with murder. Jessica would know George died because they were called to the same place first, George got killed when he protested and Jessica was then forced to make a call from her room (which explains her "they got me" and how she knows what her corpse will look like, because she is told). Kyrie was never taken to Kuwadorian, that scene was a complete lie; all the calls were completely forced, the holes around her corpse could be gunshots or stakes thrown at her whenever she deviated a little from the script she was given. Kshanon explains all the episodes quite easily indeed.

But I get the feeling "Its too easy and therefore it can't be".

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Arkwright

So unless I can find an example that suggests any red truth is not what it says at face value, I'm inclined to say that it should not be bent.

How about the red texts in EP4 that refer to magic?

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Arkwright

Battler is the culprit in all games! Knox's rules do not necessarily apply to episodes 1-4, so the detective can be the culprit. When Virgilia said Battler was not the culprit, she was referring to another Battler: Ushiromiya Jessica. The same applies to Eva-Beatrice's red truth in episode 3. Her reasoning for saying this was to ease his concerns about why Beatrice was running the game for him, and to allow Battler to come to this realization in his own time - like Obi-wan, rather than tell him outright, she lied simply because she felt it was not necessary for him to know until he could fully understand it on his own.

As an alternate theory along the same lines, Battler has been dead from before the start of all games! He died when he fell off the boat on the way to Rokkenjima and drowned. All of the games from then onward have been a vision of his soul in Purgatory as he witnesses the effects his life has had on the people around him, and to atone for the sin that drove his family to mass murder. The narrator Battler was simply an illusion or a view through the eyes of a different character, and any references to Battler in red referred to a personality inside of Jessica instead.

It has been stated that Natsuhi and Krauss were unable to create a child for a long time. Furthermore, Kinzo apparently cared enough to provide a child to the couple 19 years ago. It is certainly possible that he gave it another try. When Rudolf fathered two children at the same time, to save the family's honor, Kinzo intervened and forced one of the children to be given to Krauss and Natsuhi. It may even be possible that the only people who knew this happened were Krauss, Natsuhi, Kinzo, and Nanjo. Asumu could have been told that the male Battler was her baby, and Kyrie was told that hers was stillborn (as the official wife, Kinzo decided to give Asumu the right.) And while Natsuhi initially hated the concept of caring for another mother's child, she eventually grew to love Jessica as her own daughter, similar to how she grew to love Krauss.

The female Battler was given a new name to hide her status, and lived as Jessica. Stifled at times under her strict supervision, Jessica developed a separate personality where she could do what she wanted without the shackles of her responsibilities as the next head - this is the personality called Battler.

I strongly dislike a theory that makes Battler the culprit, or dead before the game starts, but I would say that they do have as much or more going for them in terms of hints and foreshadowing as the Shannon = Kanon theory.

Yes, there can be more than one solution. I just really feel uncomfortable going into this territory. Denying the basis, even for a seemingly good reason, is something that I do not want to accept. Because it feels like I can't accept that I can't solve a crossword puzzle as it is presented to me, so I get upset and cross out the boxes that I can't fill in and say "there, I did it."

So unless I can find an example that suggests any red truth is not what it says at face value, I'm inclined to say that it should not be bent.

That "Battler is the culprit" theory is something I had in mind all this while and I am still strongly inclined to believe in that. It also solves the last puzzle given by Beatrice and should lead Battler to the correct answer, Battler is the only one alive at the end of EP4 and yet he was going to be killed, therefore, he was the Beatrice who was going to kill himself. It was never declared in red that his death wouldn't be a suicide or a murder by trap so the only logical outcome is that he kills himself. I have my doubts about Jessica being the daughter of Asumu (and Rudolf was by Kyrie's side when she gave birth to her child, if she was conscious enough to realize that, she should be conscious enough to know her son was given to Asumu, I don't really see Kyrie the jealous agreeing to that unless of course, she was indeed attached to the Ushiromiyas to raise money for her family, at least back then) but that holds for now.

[Archer]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

That "Battler is the culprit" theory is something I had in mind all this while and I am still strongly inclined to believe in that. It also solves the last puzzle given by Beatrice and should lead Battler to the correct answer, Battler is the only one alive at the end of EP4 and yet he was going to be killed, therefore, he was the Beatrice who was going to kill himself. It was never declared in red that his death wouldn't be a suicide or a murder by trap so the only logical outcome is that he kills himself. I have my doubts about Jessica being the daughter of Asumu (and Rudolf was by Kyrie's side when she gave birth to her child, if she was conscious enough to realize that, she should be conscious enough to know her son was given to Asumu, I don't really see Kyrie the jealous agreeing to that unless of course, she was indeed attached to the Ushiromiyas to raise money for her family, at least back then) but that holds for now.

Unfortunately, your theory has a glaring flaw that makes it fall apart at the seams:

Beatrice is not Battler.