2011-12-26, 02:28 | Link #26622 | |
Intellectual Rapist
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2011-12-26, 03:13 | Link #26623 |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Did you ever wonder why Beatrice started that epitaph game in the first place?
I am inclined to think that "Love" was the cause. It's "Without love in cannot be seen" thing. She want to kill off the other persona with the Epitapt game. But someone in love with other persona reacted by killing people. Last edited by unsuspectingvisitor; 2011-12-26 at 05:08. |
2011-12-26, 22:54 | Link #26624 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
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In our case however, Love refers to our trust in R07 and that he gave us a mystery that is solvable. So, in any case, Love is a key component to figuring out the answer. Rule Z acts in opposition to that by disguising Rule X and Y which would lead us to the answer. Quote:
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2011-12-27, 03:42 | Link #26625 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Furthermore, Bern's speculations on Rule Z weren't some kind of Red-Text semantics game. All you have to do to make "a love answer for Rule Z" fit Bern's speculations (as you interpret them) is consider that Rule Z isn't defined as "love" precisely, but is instead defined by the old phrase "without love it cannot be seen", or whatever. Quote:
Also IIRC Zepar and Furfur weren't breaking the 4th wall; they were talking to characters who questioned why the love duel had to happen. |
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2011-12-27, 07:43 | Link #26626 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Plus a player is allowed to move his piece as he prefers and the game can't move without the player either (When in Ep 3 Battler stopped playing he stilled the game). Also we are told the GM has to fight the risk of logic errors. Most likely the difference between the GM and the player is that the GM can move more than one piece at time while the player can move only one at once, plus the GM created the setting in which the piece moves. As a result it's easier for the GM to influence the play than for the player but the GM still has not complete control (which I guess is what makes this a play between two people and not a play against himself/herself) |
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2011-12-27, 13:26 | Link #26628 | |||||
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Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
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With that said, it would be a miracle if you can make a Love answer for Rule Z considering that Love, by how its defined in the phrase, acts completely different from how Bern speculates Rule Z to act. Bern says, and I qoute, "For now, I assumed that Rule Z is a maze- like existence putting haze over the truth. In other words, a maze to not let me come close to Rules X and Y." How can Love, which is supposed to give you insight to the truth, be a rule that prevents you from getting close to it? Quote:
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1) Erika takes direct control of her piece and changes the events of the game. 2) Erika just sits and watches as the game unfolds. Again, that depends on your interpretation of how the game is played. |
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2011-12-27, 14:12 | Link #26629 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
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Not that I think Genji doing anything is all that credible, but still. No reds can be applied to R-Prime, if it exists.
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2011-12-27, 14:59 | Link #26630 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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And why Beatrice would be surprised about Sakutaro in EP4? If she believed Sakutaro was the only one in the world, then she wouldn't create a gameboard where he isn't. And then nothing could prevent her from completing the red. So what kind of situation didn't allow her to finish her sentence if not the real situation in Rokkenjima Prime? Quote:
If we go by the definition of love we've seen so far from the beginning to the end, then love is what makes you think a grey sky is blue, that magic exists and that nobody is a culprit.
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2011-12-27, 15:35 | Link #26632 | |
Dribble.....SHOOTOH!
Join Date: Feb 2006
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I don't think this is correct either, just for the record. I just think it's interesting and want to see how far I can take it. |
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2011-12-27, 15:39 | Link #26633 | |
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If you want my personal opinion as to why that contradiction appears to exist, I'm going with "Ryukishi didn't think it out very well and intended for some reds to apply to the 'real world' in ep4 that ultimately would be declared inapplicable or essentially pointless (but not necessarily wrong)." Hell, I don't even know how that whole Asumu/Kyrie/Battler thing could be independently verified at all. Even if Beatrice believed Battler was Kyrie's son, how exactly did she know it to be true? We have nothing anywhere that gives us any reason to believe it's true short of the narrative leading us along that path. Even if it is true, where did that information come from, how did it get to the people who would use it, and how did they verify it enough to be confident in its status as a red truth?
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2011-12-27, 16:12 | Link #26634 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
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That red applies to such things, along with arc 7 having Yasu's life depicted as a book, makes me certain that there is no "absolutely prime reality" in Umineko's world.
I don't understand even trying to avoid that conclusion by now... |
2011-12-27, 17:23 | Link #26635 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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And the main question here is: "if Beatrice could attempt using red for something related to the real world (which appears to be the case in EP4), and if trying to use it for something that is false would make you choke, even when you believe you are right... then wouldn't that mean she had virtually the power to check the veridicity of all things?!" Hell... she could have tried to say 'God exists'...
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2011-12-27, 20:01 | Link #26637 | |||||
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Bern moved her Erika piece in EP 5 in attempt to corner Natsuhi, though Lambda moved the Battler piece to stop her (Battler wasn't playing so I guess Lambda could move his piece). Erika moved her own piece so as to create a logic error in Ep 6. Of course the player can also sit and just let the gamemaster move his own piece too. I guess it's sort of like playing Sims (a PC simulation game). You can control only one piece at time while the pc hands the others. However if you don't move your own piece the program will force it to move on its own. Of course, though you can let the computer move it for you... well, at this point you aren't playing anymore. Quote:
Also which was the difference between making Battler lose due to a trap or lose due to quitting? Plus Virgilia apparently came up with the Sun and wind strategy afterward. She needs Battler to accept her as a witch to be able to declare his loss. If he leaves without accepting her he merely stills the game same as she does when she leaves without making him recognize her as a witch. Quote:
Battler could have said, 'sorry, I didn't let your piece kill anyone' and he could have added 'sorry, but I didn't let your piece close the door of the room I was in so I can get in and out and you can't notice'. No, Erika needs to have the possibility to move her own piece when she wants to or there's no game, she just watches Battler playing a solitarie. Quote:
In Umineko though they often don't bother providing evidence, in fact Beato says when she uses red she needs no proofs. However it could be she have proofs, she's merely not showing them to Battler (sort of like when we're told that Erika in Ep 5 actually colllected proofs for her red truth but the narrator wouldn't bother telling us the details of it). Quote:
It's possible that, after the Rokkenjima incident, people discovered Rudolf switched the babies or believed him to have switched the babies so much it became a truth. I wonder if the Sakutarou problem was caused by something similar. When the meta game began the person playing it in his mind believed there was only one Sakutarou but then he discovered either there were more or that Sakutarou could be reincarnated into another vessel as long as it had certain characteristics.... Last edited by jjblue1; 2011-12-27 at 20:12. |
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2011-12-27, 22:26 | Link #26638 | ||||
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
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Now, the Sun and Wind scheme was made- up before the game started. Beatrice knew that Battler would quit on her at some point during the game because he was annoyed at the brutal deaths of his family. So she requested the aid of her former mentor to act as Battler's helper, leaving a seed of good impressions for the witches. This seed will grow once Battler sees Beatrice's regret and acts of compassion and sacrifice, so then by the time the game was over, he would believe that witches were good and would naively sign a contract stating that he believes in them, thus forfeiting the game. Quote:
And contrary to what you believe, the GM can't just retract moves once they are said in done, especially considering that he/she was the one that wrote them in. Quote:
Pretty much, its the idea that Umineko is actually comparing the literary arts, specifically those of Detective Ficton, to games. Authors are called Game Masters and Readers are called Players, characters in the story are referred to as "pieces." Speculations had popped after EP5 and some had taken the form of the Author Theory which had strengthened after EP6. The theory pretty much states that the Players, contrary to popular belief, don't take control of the pieces rather the Game Master writes a mystery for the Player to solve and the Player uses observations provided by a chosen detective piece to solve it. People had came to some of these conclusions through several observations: #1) People have made attempts to try and give the characters set functions like the pieces in chess. However, the nature of the characters change with each game and, even moreso, develops. People have figured that this was odd if it was to be a game. #2) At the beginning of every episode, except EP1 and EP2, Beatrice had to make preparations for the game. Some saw that this was odd because a game would be easy to set up since the pieces are usually set up in a certain way. People had began to conclude that the pieces are being changed around with each game. This observation was placed more in- depth in EP6 when Battler also had to make preparations. #3) Some had found it odd that Battler, who should have direct control of his piece, should be able to just move his piece around and make it so that his piece would be located to the next murder or, considering that he doesn't like to see his family die as well as not wanting to blame anyone, could've made it so that a murder couldn't have happened. Naturally, people have thought it was because of his own incompetence, though some had struck it especially odd when his piece never left the cousin's room in EP4 until the end of the game. #4) The court scene in EP5 had pretty much confirmed each of the games to be Mystery novels when it introduced Knox's Decalogue and had made comparisons to other mysteries in regards of whether Beatrice follows those rules or not. This confirmation was strengthened when Ikuko was introduced in EP6 stating that she had written some of the episodes. That's a few of them, I think there's more, with #4 being the biggest since that was where the Author Theory came from. Like I said, its not really a theory, its really just a collection of speculations, I just putting them together to make my point. |
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2011-12-28, 03:20 | Link #26639 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Personally, I think the amount of control the player has over their piece is just something that R07 didn't think about too much. It's kind of all over the place, so you're probably better off not thinking about it.
In E2, Battler and Meta-Battler practically seem to be the same entity. Meta-Battler starts to accept Beatrice at the same time as Battler does, Battler presents theories that Meta-Battler proposes, and so on. There's even a point where it's heavily suggested that Rosa actually hears something Battler intended for Beatrice (the 'You stay silent!' line). Then in E3 and E4, all evidence points to Meta-Battler having absolutely no control over Battler, and his role is only to argue with Beatrice in the separate meta-world. In E5 and 6, Erika and Meta-Erika actually seem to be exactly the same being, like Battler and Meta-Battler. The piece Erika in E6 is even shown talking to Dlanor and popping in and out of the game board to confirm red truths and such. Plus Erika can do things without Meta-Battler's knowledge. E6 gives much more of an impression of an even footing between Battler and Erika, actually, as they seem to have a fairly equal amount of control over the game board. Battler's piece in these games is also weird, as it seems like Bern and Lamba are constantly switching control over it in E5. In E6, Meta-Battler seems to have direct control over it. Then E8 doesn't even bother trying to differentiate between the meta and the game board. I really don't see how you could possibly come to a consistent conclusion about the rules of the game with all this conflicting information. You're probably better off just enjoying each episode as it is. |
2011-12-28, 03:54 | Link #26640 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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In this case I'm talking about romantic love of Shannon/Beatrice for Battler, you know; not the "without love it cannot be seen" kind of love. Quote:
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Also, as I was trying to say earlier, just say the rule is "love is needed" and the logic contradiction that you are claiming is suddenly no longer valid. Quote:
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