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Old 2010-01-13, 09:21   Link #2361
CWW
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If Akane falls for Akaishi because of his looks then she's incredibly shallow. Kou is in a similar situation, but fortunately, he manages to avoid the pitfall and appreciates Akane for what she isn't. Namely not Wakaba.
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Old 2010-01-13, 09:24   Link #2362
DragoonKain3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauraleye View Post
Well, we - the watchers - are probably hardly mistaken. The unsettling point is that the folks in the show do not seem to realize the difference between the two as well as we do
I'm pretty sure it is intentional on Adachi's part.

Us watchers, like Kou and Aoba, have very intimate knowledge about Wakaba. And us, like Kou and Aoba, are able to distinguish the two apart. Sure there's a ton of similiarities (as said as much by the two), but Akane and Wakaba have enough differences that Kou and Aoba treat them as separate entities for the most part BECAUSE those two knew Wakaba so well.

Contrast this with everyone else, who either didn't know Wakaba well enough (aka Akaishi) or intentionally blind themselves due to love (aka Tsukishima dad), that they keep treating Akane as if Wakaba rose from the grave.

(Of course, Akane being practically Yamato Nadeshiko personified, does not confront this issue head on or is simply too nice to not mind it much at all. But I digress...)

So really, it has more to do with Adachi using Tsukishima dad as a foil to Aoba (family love), and Akaishi as a foil to Kou (romantic love). And I say Adachi did wonderful in this regard... but of course, it doesn't seem like everyone else thinks so in this forum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CWW
If Akane falls for Akaishi because of his looks then she's incredibly shallow. Kou is in a similar situation, but fortunately, he manages to avoid the pitfall and appreciates Akane for what she isn't. Namely not Wakaba.
I think this is the biggest reason that I do not at all ship AkaishiXAkane. Forgive me to those who ship it, but as CWW says, its as shallow as KouXAkane. Even shallower arguably, since the relationship is only based on Akane's skindeep resemblance to Wakaba, until the time Akaishi starts seeing Akane for who she really is (which is not the case right now).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemuru
he second thing that irritates me is when people treat an anime OP/ED as canon..
Yeah no kdding, especially when OP/ED usually are misleading. Take H2 for another work of Adachi's for example...
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Old 2010-01-13, 09:42   Link #2363
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Quote:
So really, it has more to do with Adachi using Tsukishima dad as a foil to Aoba (family love), and Akaishi as a foil to Kou (romantic love). And I say Adachi did wonderful in this regard... but of course, it doesn't seem like everyone else thinks so in this forum.
Personally I think more people agree with this statement than is apparent. I happen to agree with you to an extent, that both papa Tsukishima and Akaishi are able to effectively personify what it is for people who have yet to truly distinguish between the two, but are still stuck on the tragedy of her death and are unable to move on effectively.

In a way it lets them live on a certain fantasy. In Akane they see some sort of way to regain what they lost years ago, even if they don't admit it to themselves. They can relive in the present what they couldn't do in the past, even if they are unconsciously using a different human being as a replacement. I'm not here to judge them for it, I just find it really sad for both of them.
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Old 2010-01-13, 13:18   Link #2364
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Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Contrast this with everyone else, who either didn't know Wakaba well enough (aka Akaishi) or intentionally blind themselves due to love (aka Tsukishima dad), that they keep treating Akane as if Wakaba rose from the grave.
Akaishi sure knows Wakaba... (I can't say that he knows Waka better than Kou... but he might..)
He paid attention to very little details of her from a far.
...even remember her hand writing while Kou doesn't.
Akaishi once said he was surprised by how Kou can't tell the differences between those two (even Kou and Waka were so close). This means he knows the differences.
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Old 2010-01-13, 13:26   Link #2365
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See one thing I like about Adachi is the subtlety. Know that when Adachi has Akaishi mentioning he has only having pictures of Wakaba from the side or from far away, while Kou has the close ups, means more than the literal pictures themselves.
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Old 2010-01-13, 13:36   Link #2366
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And sometimes, people get too close could overlook some important details while people who watches from distance can see overall pictures clearer.
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Old 2010-01-13, 15:53   Link #2367
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2 more episodes till I catch up! I had it stalled after episode 2, and was going to wait until it got over, but I ended up watching it in 2 days This anime is good enough to get me out of lurking and post I thought it would be ok and just something to pass time(also considering I barely know anything about baseball), but it has quickly become one of my favourites! I should have not stalled it, but then again I am glad I did or else I wouldn't get to watch so many back to back

I like Aoba with Kou(they are so well matched) but I like Azuma very much as well and will feel sad for him... heck I already do I love all the characters so much. I thought there was no way I would like Aoba because I was strictly WakabaxKou. And after the first episode I was mad at them for it always being about Aoba That Aoba is now my favourite character(with Kou and Azuma) shows how well the characters are made. I do not like Akane very much but she certainly drives the story forward. Anyway, I really want it to have a clear end. I read Mitsuru Adachi is known for open endings...

Only 10 more episodes. I should have waited... I am going to have to watch it weekly now But is this anime going to have an end? The manga is ongoing and on a break right? I hope it gets a second season, but I am definitely reading the manga once it(this season?) ends

And where the hell is the soundtrack! Such a nice soundtrack. 40 episodes and no ost release? Do we at least have a release date? Or did it get released and I am blind?

P.S. I love Nomo awww
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Old 2010-01-13, 16:08   Link #2368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poko-kun View Post
And sometimes, people get too close could overlook some important details while people who watches from distance can see overall pictures clearer.
At the very least, Adachi thinks that adage is hogwash....

Spoiler for manga bit I'm pretty sure was in the anime already, but not 100% sure:
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Old 2010-01-13, 18:17   Link #2369
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Those were some good points that were brought up that AkaishixAkane seems kind of shallow. Never really thought about it that way. Well at the very least, we might be finally getting some answers in the next episode as to who Akane likes... will it be Akaishi? Will it be Kou? (please no) or will it be Yuhei? (part of me wants to see YuheixAkane although the series doesn't really support that pairing with the way it's presented.)

Also I'm almost sure that Aoba is sticking with Seishu till the end (just my opinion), however I would not be surprised if she shows up to the woman's practice for another episode or two. Although with the episodes counting down, can they really afford to deviate from the main storyline any further?

Also, here is my review/synopsis for episode 40 those interested.

P.S. Junpei was awesome this episode.
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Old 2010-01-13, 19:58   Link #2370
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Like I said last episode. The most interesting thing is that Akane believes in destiny. She's convinced herself that she was supposed to move there so that she could take Wakaba's place. Or at least ease everyone's pain, or something.

Maybe she thinks Wakaba is behind it, or something. But Akane was pretty clear to Kou that she felt it was destiny that she moved there.

Now I find that a bit creepy, and sweet, and creepy, all mixed up into one creepy/sweet mess. However, it also make this very interesting.

The "Replacement Fantasy" has a long history. As such it's been deconstructed about how bad it is, the pressure it puts on the replacement, and so forth.

Adachi has gone and reconstructed the fantasy in a more pleasing fashion. Akane (the replacement) has a strong sense of self, and so is not threatened by Wakaba, as she doesn't show signs of feeling she has to "live up" to Wakaba (at least so far). Akane is also very kind and gentle, and patient. And she believes in destiny, and seems to think that looking like Wakaba and moving into the area must have some kind of higher purpose. And so she's accepted the replacement role rather goodnaturedly. It helps that the Tsukishimas are really nice people.

Adachi has taken this a further step and then deconstructed his own reconstructed trope. Aoba's father and Akaishi represent those who are accepting the Reconstructed fantasy, but Kou and Aoba have not. Kou and Aoba are feeling the brunt of the negative effects of a Replacement. This despite the way they both like and enjoy Akane's company.

In a way that's making it worse for them.

Adachi reminds me of Tolkien, in that both of them are obsessed with death- and it shows in their writings. So far, all of the works by Adachi that I've read have dealt with and explored the issues surrounding the death of a loved one.

Another thing that I've noticed in Adachi's works is the importance of choice. Very often his characters face a decision, they think about it and then make a choice, and then might struggle with temptation to change course. Adachi seems to encourage the idea of making a decision, and then not regretting it. This has come up with Aoba's temptation by the female national team, and will likely play a role in how the romance all works out.

I suspect that in the romance area it's Kou who is going to have to make a choice- which will be a huge step for him because his whole life he's been letting Wakaba make the decisions for him. I expect that getting to Koshien plays a big part in that, in that Kou feels he can't make his own decisions until he fulfills Wakaba's last dream. In several ways Aoba has been "filling in" for Wakaba in ordering Kou around, ever since he joined the baseball team. But Aoba isn't Wakaba, no more than Akane is, and she isn't likely to tell Kou that he needs to buy her an engagement ring at age 20.

Interesting though that Aoba is starting to get pushed towards making a choice herself. (How do you feel about Azuma, Aoba?). Aoba will have to face a choice too.

Strangely enough, at this point I don't where Adachi plans to take the choices.

The H2 series what most people thought was the red herring I assumed was the official couple. And since I had gotten spoiled that the official couple didn't get together, I was rather pleasantly surprised by the ending.

But in this one... I don't know what Adachi has planned.

On the stalker, I thought that Aoba having a stalker was previously mentioned, so it was conservation of detail when it turned out that it was the same stalker- and was symbolic of how Aoba's admirers are shifting to Akane?

At least that's what I got from it. Wakaba overshadowed Aoba when they were younger (not that Aoba minded), and now Akane comes along and is filling in the hole that Wakaba had left- that up until then Aoba was (unknown to herself) filling.

That and it allowed the large display of mixed signals from both Kou and Aoba towards each other.

My main quibble was the Senda scene with Aoba kicking him in the face with spikes. Just felt off to me.

The Akane = Wakaba scenes were creepy, but I felt it was intended to be creepy.
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Old 2010-01-14, 01:56   Link #2371
HitagiIsHot
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Great post Sackett.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
Another thing that I've noticed in Adachi's works is the importance of choice. Very often his characters face a decision, they think about it and then make a choice, and then might struggle with temptation to change course. Adachi seems to encourage the idea of making a decision, and then not regretting it. This has come up with Aoba's temptation by the female national team, and will likely play a role in how the romance all works out.
I just want to add...
Akane tells Aoba regarding the baseball team, to choose the path without any regrets.
Junpei tells Aoba regarding who she likes, that it should be very easy. (You either like someone or you don't). Which can also be seen as choosing someone that you will not regret.
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Old 2010-01-14, 07:42   Link #2372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
At the very least, Adachi thinks that adage is hogwash....

Spoiler for manga bit I'm pretty sure was in the anime already, but not 100% sure:
Koh certainly knows what makes Aoba tick...but it's the other characters (and the viewers) that are reading into what that implies.
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Old 2010-01-14, 07:54   Link #2373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
At the very least, Adachi thinks that adage is hogwash....

Spoiler for manga bit I'm pretty sure was in the anime already, but not 100% sure:
In the anime, it should be the conversation between Kou and Akane at the beginning of episode 37 (roughly from minutes 3:00 to 5:00).
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Old 2010-01-14, 08:00   Link #2374
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If Akane falls for Akaishi because of his looks then she's incredibly shallow.
I do not understand at all how anyone could come up to that conclusion.

It has been established that Akaishi is a scary looking guy. Even Kō affectionately called Akaishi something like "ugly face" or "butt face" a few episodes ago, after the kabuki date. Unless Akane is into some weird fetish, Akaishi is not the typical teenage female fantasy.

Secondly, how could "you look like my grandfather" be seen as a sign of infuatuation based on looks? It was most certainly some kind comment from a considerate Akane trying to show she honestly appreciated Akaishi's personality, even though he was trying to drive her attention towards Kō.

And finally, we are talking about Akane, of all people! Why the hell would she be shallow about this? Since her introduction, she has consistently shown that she is a kind, clever and understanding person. She never complains about the constant references to Wakaba, she tries to be as supportive of Aoba as she can, she seems to have a very good grasp of the complex relationship between Kō and Aoba.

Therefore, it is fairly safe to assume Akane understands the situation for Akaishi as well; the reasons behind his commitment to Kō and the fact that he is probably being too nice for his own good. She understood he is a good guy and she wants him to be happy. Hence the compliment. Hence the gift. She already cares for him.

If Akane falls for Akaishi romantically, it will not be for a shallow reason. It will be because she will have preferred his personality to Kō's and/or becasue she decided that she doesn't feel Kō truly loves her but loves someone else instead. It could be either Aoba or, more disturbingly, the "real" Wakaba. Or Azuma, if she is secretly into that kind of thing! Errm...

Two traits of Akane are often forgotten when her behavior is discussed. As Sackett explained eloquently, she believes in destiny: it is possible she was "meant to" replace Wakaba, not only for Kō but also for the whole Tsukishima family. And the other under-appreciated point is that she has always dreamt of a sister like Aoba. This is what helps her understanding and accepting so patiently the illusion that Wakaba is back. It is inevitable that the illusion will crash at some point. Otherwise, the whole story will have been extremely dumb (or at least in my opinion). But you have to give all these characters time.

I have never been in such a situation (losing a sibling or my first love) so I have no idea how realistic their behaviors are. Of course, I want to scream at them whenever they blur the identities of Wakaba and Akane. But I honestly have no idea how it feels. We need to remember this is an extraordinary situation; the characters are not supposed to know how to deal with it. Most of them were not supposed to deal with Wakaba's death in the first place.

As outside observers, we are in a comfortable situation to judge how unsettling their relationship to the whole Wakaba/Akane spiel is. But their struggle is merely a more profound variation on the usual romantic trope "everyone knows the main protagonists are made for each other, except the main protagonists themselves". When something affects you directly, you are rarely the best judge of the situation. Which brings me to this quote from poko-kun:

Quote:
sometimes, people get too close could overlook some important details while people who watches from distance can see overall pictures clearer.
This is the whole premise of the show.

Aoba cannot see herself for who she is and what she is worth. Aoba and Kō clearly don't have a full understanding of their relationship and still don't deal about it openly. Akaishi still pretends to himself that he wants to see Akane with Kō, instead of admitting that he wants Akane to himself.

Whenever an outside character (Junpei, Azuma, Ichiyo) comments on these topics, they have a much better picture of the situation - which is why we are under the impression they are so "cool" and "level-headed". But I am convinced that, as soon as you dig into such characters more deeply, you will realise they face similar issues and do not fully grasp their own situation. We are seeing hints of this with Azuma (although he does seem much more mature and level-headed than other characters in general).

Just look at how Aoba, Kō and Akaishi have such a better judgement of situations which do not involve them directly. Kō understands Aoba's internal struggles perfectly and knows what is going through Akaishi's head, yet he seems puzzled by his own relationships with Akane and Aoba.

This is why Akane exists. When she appeared, I was so surprised that I wondered if this was decided by Adachi on the spur of the moment, i.e. that he didn't like where the original plot was going. It felt like a superficial addition and a cheap trick. But as soon as the theme behind the story became clearer, precisely when Akane answered "so you understand then" (Ep. 37 - around 05'00"), I became convinced this was the plot he planned all along.

Just like when reading/watching Touch years later (another Adachi series with an important change/twist), you realize the first part was only a patiently crafted set-up for the real topic of the story.

Of course, I completely understand if someone finds the topic grating, or not interesting, or poorly handled (although I would disagree on that last point). But I don't understand someone liking the story despite the Akane/Wakaba situation. The characters' struggle is the whole point of the plot and what make this series something a bit more profound than a random teen romance show.
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Old 2010-01-14, 12:38   Link #2375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HitagiIsHot View Post
Those were some good points that were brought up that AkaishixAkane seems kind of shallow. Never really thought about it that way. Well at the very least, we might be finally getting some answers in the next episode as to who Akane likes... will it be Akaishi? Will it be Kou? (please no) or will it be Yuhei? (part of me wants to see YuheixAkane although the series doesn't really support that pairing with the way it's presented.)
...............

Also, here is my review/synopsis for episode 40 those interested.

P.S. Junpei was awesome this episode.
It’s quite clear that the anime presents Akane x Kou stronger than any other couple in this series. Akaishi I don't see happening, it’s almost a foregone conclusion. Personally I rather not see the anime head towards a "bring happiness to everyone" where some miraculous event where everyone is partner up..

Quote:
Originally Posted by poko-kun
And sometimes, people get too close could overlook some important details while people who watches from distance can see overall pictures clearer.
I'm just going to highlight this on a whimsical note... pondering if
Spoiler for irrelevent -- ~~~:


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rumblefish
I do not understand at all how anyone could come up to that conclusion.
I think the statement is fine, as we're not deliberating the alternative but simply evaluating a scenario, If Akane fell for Akaishi because of his looks then Akane can view as shallow. I believe you can apply this to any two people.

Quote:
If Akane falls for Akaishi romantically, it will not be for a shallow reason. It will be because she will have preferred his personality to Kō's and/or becasue she decided that she doesn't feel Kō truly loves her but loves someone else instead. It could be either Aoba or, more disturbingly, the "real" Wakaba. Or Azuma, if she is secretly into that kind of thing! Errm...
To an extent if Akane chose someone else because her true love (kou) love someone else then that itself can be shallow as its devoid of romantic feelings for the other person but merely a means of escape.

Last edited by Nemuru; 2010-01-14 at 12:51.
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Old 2010-01-14, 12:52   Link #2376
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you really haven't been watching the show have you? You clearly are an inexperienced adachi veiwer but seriously nemeru, it's quite obvious what the "official" couple is going to be, even though azuma really likes aoba. I mean if you think about all the hints and quips between the two aoba and kou are into each other that is beyond just a superficial connection due to wakaba. Even wakaba knew how aoba felt, I really don't think we've been watching the same show.
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Old 2010-01-14, 12:56   Link #2377
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
you really haven't been watching the show have you? You clearly are an inexperienced adachi veiwer but seriously nemeru, it's quite obvious what the "official" couple is going to be, even though azuma really likes aoba. I mean if you think about all the hints and quips between the two aoba and kou are into each other that is beyond just a superficial connection due to wakaba. Even wakaba knew how aoba felt, I really don't think we've been watching the same show.
I think you misunderstand my position im only support a character not because I believed they will end up together but for valid reason it can work as the event and evidence suggest there is romantic feelings outside of being a wakaba clone.. how is it obvious? in exactly what way can you support this statement then offering kou admiration to the platter? unless your denying Akane x Kou as a possibility as many of the posters here are. I believe thats where our views differ because I can see a possibility while many outright reject it.

I have nothing against Aoba x Kou im more rather against akane possibly ending up with someone else besides kou or rather akane would move away and not be paired up with Akaishi or the rather bemusing yuhei as another possibility.
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Old 2010-01-14, 13:13   Link #2378
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how is akane x akaishi so implaussible, I'm pretty sure akane is quite aware of akaishi's wingman nature with kou, hence the little figurine of him, and the fact that he looks like her grandfather was her way of telling akaishi that he shouldn't just think about others and over think the situation. Also if akane were to be with akaishi it wouldn't be about looks, as it's a running gag that everybody and even akaishi veiws akaishi as a monster, ugly, butt face type of character.
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Old 2010-01-14, 13:21   Link #2379
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I, for one, have absolutely no problem with Akane ending up with Akaishi. In fact, I've been advocating that very possibility for quite a while. But I digress...
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Old 2010-01-14, 13:44   Link #2380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
how is akane x akaishi so implaussible, I'm pretty sure akane is quite aware of akaishi's wingman nature with kou, hence the little figurine of him, and the fact that he looks like her grandfather was her way of telling akaishi that he shouldn't just think about others and over think the situation. Also if akane were to be with akaishi it wouldn't be about looks, as it's a running gag that everybody and even akaishi veiws akaishi as a monster, ugly, butt face type of character.
Its more along the line of Akaishi understanding his own position as a support for Akane and her endeavor while Akane herself hasn't shown any romantic interest in him. I don't see the justification of the figurine provided an example of affection the romantic kind. Akane is generally nice to those around her, Akaishi did drive that hoodlum away from her and giving someone a gift in return isn't out of the ordinary considering someone of Akane nature. Crafting a figurine that took longer because she wanted the get the perfect details is something that suggest she likes Kou. Even Kou realises this and forcefully told himself not to tell Akaishi about it.

I believed we're are already clear its not about looks, but if a statement only propose a scenario based on looks we can view it objectively. If Akane is going to end with Akaishi it won't be based on the current episodes count at 40 but somewhere further.
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