Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Shinn Kamiyra]

Originally Posted by Tak

But we have no evidence to suggest that Lacus knew the extent of Dully's manipulation. At that time, Meer was probably nothing but a celebrity imitation, which is not at all uncommon. If anything, the only thing she could do at the time was to press charges for copyright and defamation issues.

As hilarious as that would be, that's not the point. It would've been enough to know that Dullindal was at least playing some part in manipulating the public to his advantage through Meer; this having just come to light in the aftermath of Junius 7.

Clearly this was by no means a coincidence, and I don't believe Lacus is naive enough not to see the truth, or at least a part of it, behind it all.

Originally Posted by Tak

We also don't know how long Meer had assumed that role. One thing for sure, when she meet Athrun for the first time, it was shown that she was very well into that pretense, even down to wanting a piece of Athrun.

Perhaps, but this was also her very first meeting with Athrun, in a crowded place no less, so she had little to no choice but to play it out as she believed Lacus would have. In addition to that she made little to no effort to hide her true identity from Athrun, who near saw through her from the very beginning, when they were alone

She was well into her role, as you say, but I wouldn't go so far as to say she was all that much into it.

Originally Posted by Tak

We don't know that, and personally I believe it would have been useless. At the end, she was nothing more than bait to lure Lacus out, and it was an accident that she was shot.

A fundamental difference in opinion then. Truth be told we don't have any way of knowing one way or the other whether things could've been different, though I certainly believe they could have.

Originally Posted by Tak

What about Lacus' mother? What about Mwu's mother, what about Murre's mother? A mother is not necessary to foster character development. Its not necessary, imo.

Murre and Mwu's characters were far better developed than Lacus, IMHO, so that's a moot point. I'm simply putting forth that Lacus' mother could've been used as a strong developing force for her character that she never really seemed to get.

It may not be necessary, but it was unused material that could've made Lacus far more appealing than she was.

Originally Posted by Ta

All these suggestions were fine and dandy, but by the time Lacus and Kira entered the fray, a good chunk of the series had already been done and over with. Everything else were unfortunately, missed opportunity.

- Tak

This whole series was a culmination of missed opportunities, IMO. No argument there.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra

As hilarious as that would be, that's not the point. It would've been enough to know that Dullindal was at least playing some part in manipulating the public to his advantage through Meer; this having just come to light in the aftermath of Junius 7.

The only thing they saw from Meer was an imitation concert. At the time, she was not yet making any sort of political commentary, statement, or taking sides. This is like saying, George W. Bush declared war on Iraq, and a few days later a Michael Jackson imposter held a concert, suddenly the dots are connected.

Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra

Perhaps, but this was also her very first meeting with Athrun, in a crowded place no less, so she had little to no choice but to play it out as she believed Lacus would have. In addition to that she made little to no effort to hide her true identity from Athrun, who near saw through her from the very beginning, when they were alone

She was well into her role, as you say, but I wouldn't go so far as to say she was all that much into it.

She was into it enough to have slept with him (well, sans the sex). Personally, I believe she had a crush on Athrun. How did that develop is another story. Nonetheless, to have an excuse to stick by Athrun, it meant Meer had to play the role of Lacus. Moreover, lets not kid ourselves, that four-timer Athrun never told Meer he was no longer engaged to Lacus. I think he was enjoying a bit of pretense himself.

- Tak

[Shinn Kamiyra]

Originally Posted by Tak

The only thing they saw from Meer was an imitation concert. At the time, she was not yet making any sort of political commentary, statement, or taking sides. This is like saying, George W. Bush declared war on Iraq, and a few days later a Michael Jackson imposter held a concert, suddenly the dots are connected.

Unless Michael Jackson took part in a previous war and became a rallying force of peace for peoples everywhere, it's not the same thing.

During his first discussion with Meer, Athrun himself made it clear as to Dullindal's intentions behind why he wanted Meer up on that stage, in order to seize hold of Lacus' power to influence the people for his own purposes.

Originally Posted by Tak

She was into it enough to have slept with him (well, sans the sex). Personally, I believe she had a crush on Athrun. How did that develop is another story. Nonetheless, to have an excuse to stick by Athrun, it meant Meer had to play the role of Lacus. Moreover, lets not kid ourselves, that four-timer Athrun never told Meer he was no longer engaged to Lacus. I think he was enjoying a bit of pretense himself.

- Tak

That is completely open to interpretation. However, as a matter of fact, Athrun did no such thing; and any enjoyment that he may or may not have had wasn't made clear to the viewers as far as I've seen.

Indeed, he didn't go out of his way to tell Meer that he was no longer engaged to Lacus, however that should've been made a matter of public record during the incident in the original GS. Personally I believe Athrun was simply playing along so as to deduce the truth behind what was going on; and neither his words nor his actions give me enough evidence to suggest otherwise.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra

Unless Michael Jackson took part in a previous war and became a rallying force of peace for peoples everywhere, it's not the same thing.

I am quite certain Lacus was suspicious, but to what extent? To suddenly connect Meer with the dropping of Junius 7, an act not associated with Dully himself, would have been more than just a stretch. Furthermore, if a mere imposter was enough to connect the hearts and minds of PLANT after the incident, Lacus probably thought there were some positive merit behind it and therefore not worth the suspicion.

Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra

During his first discussion with Meer, Athrun himself made it clear as to Dullindal's intentions behind why he wanted Meer up on that stage, in order to seize hold of Lacus' power to influence the people for his own purposes.

And its quite funny how he failed to inform Lacus & Kira about the existence of Meer until after a few key battles. Nor did he bother informing those closer to him in ZAFT. Hell, when Dully, in a rare occasion of honesty, informed Athrun of his intentions with Meer, warning lights did not go off in Athrun's tofu-of-a-brain, instead, he joined FAITH!

Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra

That is completely open to interpretation. However, as a matter of fact, Athrun did no such thing; and any enjoyment that he may or may not have had wasn't made clear to the viewers as far as I've seen.

The point is Meer's attitude, not Athrun's.

The fact is, Meer was very well into her role, so much that she'd sleep with Athrun in order to appear authentic, which in turn led me to believe that even if Lacus attempted to persuade her early on, it would have accomplished little. Worse, it might have backfired.

Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra

Personally I believe Athrun was simply playing along so as to deduce the truth behind what was going on; and neither his words nor his actions give me enough evidence to suggest otherwise.

After Faith, whatever purpose to deduce the truth seemed lost. He was almost too happy to be in his new position.

- Tak

[rakusukira]

Athrun has a brain a size of a tofu?? lol!!

but i agree.. if not, Athrun has to be one of the dumbest characters in GSD. Dully hires a Lacus imposter, Dully assassinates Lacus,.. and still... he joins back to ZAFT. I mean.. WTF!?!

and yes, it kinda puzzled me why Athrun didn't tell Meer that he and Lacus broke up. Heck, I'm surprised the WHOLE PLANTs doesn't know . don't tell me the WHOLE PLANT wasn't aware of the civil war between the Zala and Clyne faction back in SEED?? i mean.. dammit! the scene where Athrun woke up with Meer beside him was hilarious!

"Lacus... wouldn't do this! NEVER!" -- okay this line was totally epic.

memories came haunting huh Athrun? that she ditched you for your best friend.. poor thing..

I'm surprised Dully became so dumb at the end of the series especially in the episode where Lacus finally revealed herself to the public. did Dully really think a couple of grunt ZAFT forces could wipe out Lacus from the face of the universe ?? totally stupid.

if Dully were smart enough, he could have recruited Kira through a blackmail

[aeriolewinters]

Suddenly connect Meer with the dropping of Junius 7, an act not associated with Dully himself

I think the Destiny Astray manga has evidence that in some way or form, Gil was involved with 'Break the world'.

Athrun's tofu-of-a-brain

Well, for what it's worth, at least he wasn't replaced with a whole new character.
see: Cagalli Yula Attha

[Amuro Ray]

Originally Posted by D-KLAC

overall really i'm assume they got something plan for it 10yrs special in next year.

oh boy, will you cry next year ^^'

[GN0010 Nosferatu]

Decided to finish SEED and start Destiny. On episode 30 of SEED at the moment.

I gotta say...for some reason...Cagalli seems like my favorite character.

[Om Nerabdator]

I want more shinxluna moments!!

[rakusukira]

Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu

Decided to finish SEED and start Destiny. On episode 30 of SEED at the moment.

I gotta say...for some reason...Cagalli seems like my favorite character.

in SEED, you've got to love Cagalli's moments and words (especially the conversation with Athrun) and her badassness..

in Destiny.. she's not that interesting.. and was a little problematic and concerned with her love life.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

I think the Destiny Astray manga has evidence that in some way or form, Gil was involved with 'Break the world'.

Probably, but doesn't change the fact that every main character (aside possibly himself), did not know the truth behind the incident.

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Well, for what it's worth, at least he wasn't replaced with a whole new character.
see: Cagalli Yula Attha

Originally Posted by rakusukira

in SEED, you've got to love Cagalli's moments and words (especially the conversation with Athrun) and her badassness..

in Destiny.. she's not that interesting.. and was a little problematic and concerned with her love life.

In SEED, Cagali was direct, straightforward and willing to fight for what she believed in.

In Destiny, due to Morosawa's meddling, Cagali became whinny & passive, and cries more than a newborn. This unfortunate side effect led to Kira's infamous justify-all punchline "CAGALI IS CRYING!!!!!!!!!!"

Kira turned Savior into scrap metal, why? CAGALI IS CRYINNNNGGG!!!
Kira went all-out on ZAFT, why? CAGALI IS CRYINNNNNGGGG!!!
Kira stole your fiance, why? CAGALI IS CRYIIINNNNNGGG!!!

Since Cagali was effectively rendered inept, this meant Athrun too, was affected. Athrun in GSD became lost again, with no self, purpose and no objective. He was so happy when someone gave him something to do, even if that man might have been the culprit behind several evil deeds.

The result? Gundam's stupidest couple, Cagali x Athrun.

- Tak

[Shinn Kamiyra]

Originally Posted by Tak

I am quite certain Lacus was suspicious, but to what extent? To suddenly connect Meer with the dropping of Junius 7, an act not associated with Dully himself, would have been more than just a stretch. Furthermore, if a mere imposter was enough to connect the hearts and minds of PLANT after the incident, Lacus probably thought there were some positive merit behind it and therefore not worth the suspicion.

I'm not saying that Lacus should've connected Meer with the initial dropping of Junius 7, but with the aftermath in which she was used to unite the people under Dullindal's leadership and guidance; which she did quite well, by the way.

Regardless of whether there was positive merit behind it or not, the fact remains that an imposter was being used to rally and unite the people together in the face of an unimaginable horror. Now while that may sound all well and good at face value, if Dullindal was willing to resort to such methods, or at the very least be involved with them, then it begs the question of what else he's willing to do in order to exercise his will.

You know the old saying in that the path to hell is paved with good intentions, and that's exactly the mindset Lacus should've kept in mind when she considered all this. To simply toss aside all of this with the thought that Dullindal has good intentions behind it is pure and simple naivety.

Originally Posted by Tak

And its quite funny how he failed to inform Lacus & Kira about the existence of Meer until after a few key battles. Nor did he bother informing those closer to him in ZAFT. Hell, when Dully, in a rare occasion of honesty, informed Athrun of his intentions with Meer, warning lights did not go off in Athrun's tofu-of-a-brain, instead, he joined FAITH!

This is true, but then again I feel the character of Athrun was pwned near throughout the whole of GSD, so... yeah... >>

Originally Posted by Tak

The point is Meer's attitude, not Athrun's.

The fact is, Meer was very well into her role, so much that she'd sleep with Athrun in order to appear authentic, which in turn led me to believe that even if Lacus attempted to persuade her early on, it would have accomplished little. Worse, it might have backfired.

Admittedly there were plenty of insinuations to suggest that she might be willing to do so, but until she makes an honest-to-goodness attempt, which she never did, then that's up to personal speculation. Therefore I still believe Lacus had a very real chance of bringing her to her senses.

Originally Posted by Tak

After Faith, whatever purpose to deduce the truth seemed lost. He was almost too happy to be in his new position.

- Tak

I wouldn't go so far as to say he was happy with what was going on, though he certainly didn't seem to take much initiative, if any at all, once he was in FAITH; that's for sure.

[Washu-Chan]

Fukuda claimed in a 2003 interview that he liked Turn A Gundam.

Which elements of Turn A appeared in both SEED and SEED Destiny?

Here's what I can think of:

• Fossil of a space whale
• Lacus draws a Turn A Gundam-like moustache on her navy-blue Haro
• Copernicus City being designed after one of the cities in Turn A (Gaingnham)
• One of the mecha grunts from Turn A (SUMO) appeared in Destiny
• Kira, aside from bring the Amuro of the series, is also partly based on Loran Cehack (e.g., his relationships with Flay and Lacus are similar to Loran's relationships with Sochie and Dianna, respectively)

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Fossil of a space whale

FATKuda FAIL! Whenever that Space Whale appeared on screen, I immediately think of this guy (no joke):

Spoiler for Baaaaaassaaarrraaaa!!!:

And that OVA where he was actually chasing after a... ... ... ... space whale.

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Kira, aside from bring the Amuro of the series, is also partly based on Loran Cehack (e.g., his relationships with Flay and Lacus are similar to Loran's relationships with Sochie and Dianna, respectively)

This is another FATKuda fail. Either that, or I just can't see it.

Dianna is indeed comparable to Lacus in some ways, but Sochie to Flay? She was not even remotely a psycho, never mind that Loran, in my opinion, never felt sorry for Sochie about anything, aside from choosing Dianna at the end.


He also stated that Lacus drew inspiration from Lynn Minmei.

- Tak

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

Dianna is indeed comparable to Lacus in some ways, but Sochie to Flay? She was not even remotely a psycho, never mind that Loran, in my opinion, never felt sorry for Sochie about anything, aside from choosing Dianna at the end.


He also stated that Lacus drew inspiration from Lynn Minmei.

- Tak

Didn't he say that Lacus was also based on Audrey Hepburn? I can't see her resemblance to Hepburn. The two homages to Hepburn that I can see are Relena and Mineva (aka Audrey Burne).

And, IMO, Relena has expies of her own in Dianna, Lacus (who's also partly based on Lalah), Cagalli (also of Sayla), and Marina.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Didn't he say that Lacus was also based on Audrey Hepburn? I can't see her resemblance to Hepburn.

That he did, and nope, I can't see the resemblance either.

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

And, IMO, Relena has expies of her own in Dianna, Lacus (who's also partly based on Lalah), Cagalli (also of Sayla), and Marina.

Relena was naive to the 90th degree, and too much to my liking. Dianna and Lacus were indeed idealistic, but neither of them ruled out retaining a functional military organization.

- Tak

[aeriolewinters]

Didn't he say that Lacus was also based on Audrey Hepburn? I can't see her resemblance to Hepburn.

one of her dresses resembles a Hepburn dress she used, but the comparison is moot otherwise.

[GN0010 Nosferatu]

How...how the hell did Kira get to PLANT in episode 31?

It's like he was just teleported there....

[Rising Dragon]

Malchio brought him along when he went up to the PLANTs.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Tak

In SEED, Cagali was direct, straightforward and willing to fight for what she believed in.

In Destiny, due to Morosawa's meddling, Cagali became whinny & passive, and cries more than a newborn.

Well, in SEED, Cagalli was a rebellious and naive "princess" who couldn't believe that her father might have betrayed Orb's ideals and she had no problem with fighting in a war.

In Destiny, she realized that being involved in the political scene meant that upholding your ideals isn't always easy to do. And since she can't fix her problems by just shooting at people, thus we get her current state in Destiny.

People may not like her character in Destiny, but it's not like the change in character was unmerited.