Learning Japanese

[LiberLibri]

Spoiler for trivial knowledge:

In the late 19C and early 20C, the expression "zenzen" + positive statement was not regarded as an ugly slang for youngsters. Some great authors at that time employed it quite casually. For example, you witness it in Natsume Souseki's Greenhorn (坊ちゃん).

「一体生徒が全然悪いです。どうしても詫(あや)まらせなくっちゃ、癖になります。退校さしても構いません。」
「私は教頭及びその他諸君のお説には全然不同意であります」

Similar usage can be found in the works of R. Akutagawa, O. Mori, and T. Ishikawa.

It is an interesting point of chronological linguistics; the expression once declined to be obsoleted, and revived again after a century, everybody being unaware of the history.

[rio]

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

Spoiler for trivial knowledge:

In the late 19C and early 20C, the expression "zenzen" + positive statement was not regarded as an ugly slang for youngsters. Some great authors at that time employed it quite casually. For example, you witness it in Natsume Souseki's Greenhorn (坊ちゃん).



Similar usage can be found in the works of R. Akutagawa, O. Mori, and T. Ishikawa.

It is an interesting point of chronological linguistics; the expression once declined to be obsoleted, and revived again after a century, everybody being unaware of the history.

i didn't know that. that is interesting

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

Spoiler for trivial knowledge:

In the late 19C and early 20C, the expression "zenzen" + positive statement was not regarded as an ugly slang for youngsters. Some great authors at that time employed it quite casually. For example, you witness it in Natsume Souseki's Greenhorn (坊ちゃん).



Similar usage can be found in the works of R. Akutagawa, O. Mori, and T. Ishikawa.

It is an interesting point of chronological linguistics; the expression once declined to be obsoleted, and revived again after a century, everybody being unaware of the history.

Neither did I, learn something new everyday but I still refuse to acknowledge it, it just hurts my brain. :\
I barely can get your native language down with the hundreds of grammar rules as it is, not gonna break them for slang just yet.
Maybe in 2-3 years time.
What you should do tho libri is show that to some teachers in Japan, see what they say.
(I know a few that'd disregard it as obselete) >.>

But that's gonna be yet another sentence for the tonal gang. I've heard (on j-drama too)
zen-zen heiki da yo! (I'm not fine at all!)
Now we're supposed to deal with:
zenzen heiki da yo! (I'm totally cool)


By 'tonal gang' I mean we are only gonna be able to tell the difference via the context and tone of their voice.
(As if this lang isn't complicated enough) ;_;

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by Mystique

What you should do tho libri is show that to some teachers in Japan, see what they say.
(I know a few that'd disregard it as obselete) >.>

Today nobody employs "sad" to mean "serious" (as in Shakespear's era), or "fast" for "still"; if I re-invent such usage, it will surely be regarded as inapropriate choice of term, and you will advise me not to use it. Contemporary rules overwrite historical heritage. I do not oppose to practical Japanese teachers teaching "zenzen + positive" as a slang. But it is also fun to dig up ancient strata on a holiday, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Mystique

But that's gonna be yet another sentence for the tonal gang. I've heard (on j-drama too)
zen-zen heiki da yo! (I'm not fine at all!)
Now we're supposed to deal with:
zenzen heiki da yo! (I'm totally cool)

I would also be confused

As I wrote in previous posts, dialects in general preserve ancient terminology better than standard Japanese. Young urban girls these days seem to regard dialects as more charming (even though they have no connection to the areas in which dialects are spoken), and often mix them freely within their daily conversation. Once I was surprised to find girls' guide to dialects. Most conspicuous point is the first person pronoun; they often use "uchi / ウチ", which has been considered as Hiroshima dialect. I believe that zenzen implying something affirmative has been (re-)introduced into non-local scenes from some dialects by youngsters, which is why the tone is distinct from that of standard Japanese. Or it might happen He confused our language to punish unbelievers building a tower of animes.

[Tri-ring]

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

As I wrote in previous posts, dialects in general preserve ancient terminology better than standard Japanese. Young urban girls these days seem to feel dialects more attrative (even though they have no connection to the area in which dialects are spoken), and often mix them freely within their daily conversation. Once I was surprised to see girls' guide to dialects. Most conspicuous point is the first person pronoun; they often use "uchi / ウチ", which has been considered as Hiroshima dialect. I believe that zenzen implying something affirmative has been (re-)introduced into non-local scenes from some dialects by youngsters, which is why the tone is distinct from that of standard Japanese. Or it might happen He confused our language to punish unbelievers building a tower of animes.

I believe this is not a new fad either.
Yokohama-ben an obscure dialect for most left a foot print in Japanese since they usually closed the sentence with "~sa" so to my knowledge "de sa" and/or "Sorede sa" is a relic of Yokohama ben.

[RandomGuy]

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

As I wrote in previous posts, dialects in general preserve ancient terminology better than standard Japanese. Young urban girls these days seem to regard dialects as more charming (even though they have no connection to the areas in which dialects are spoken), and often mix them freely within their daily conversation. Once I was surprised to find girls' guide to dialects. Most conspicuous point is the first person pronoun; they often use "uchi / ウチ", which has been considered as Hiroshima dialect. I believe that zenzen implying something affirmative has been (re-)introduced into non-local scenes from some dialects by youngsters, which is why the tone is distinct from that of standard Japanese. Or it might happen He confused our language to punish unbelievers building a tower of animes.

Uchi? Hiroshima? I hear my female students use it all the time, and they swear up and down that it's Kansai-ben. Or maybe it's both?

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

Uchi? Hiroshima? I hear my female students use it all the time, and they swear up and down that it's Kansai-ben. Or maybe it's both?

Yes. In Kansai Dialect, which by itself signifies a cluster of various dialects, the first person pronoun "uchi" has been commonly used among young girls. Hiroshima dialect has also adopted "uchi" not only as lassies' but also as a mature women's term. I am not sure which influenced more strongly on the linguistic behaviour of minor females speaking standard Japanese.

You can trace the pseudo-dialect back to the beginning of 21C, when Ojamajo Doremi was so popular among children (average viewing figure: 10.4% !!). Thus some authors insist that babies mimicked Aiko's vocabulary.　

[Mueti]

Anybody else taking the JLPT this year (specifically: level 1)? I'd just like to have someone to share the pain of failing with.

[Shindesu]

Shitsureeshimasu~
Don't know if anyone corrected these, Just caught my eye so...
Btw I sometimes go off topic...

おはいよ　or おはいよございます。
Ohayoo or ohayoo gozaimasu- In the Morning**
こにちわ
Konichi wa- Greeting in the Afternoon**
こんばんわ
Konban wa- Greeting in the Evening**
さよなら
Sayonara- only say if you wont be seeing them for a long period of time.
しつれします
Shitreishimasu- Bye
ざゃまた
Jya mata- bye(Literal translation:: well then, again)

If someone asks you a yes or no question- Hai is a answer you can give but hai from the context of whats asked can just mean that you understand whats going on but it wont mean Yes. Instead try to use aa more so then hai.
＊＊Q: シンさんは　かんごくじんだすか。
Q: Shinsan wa kangokujin desu ka?
Shinsan are you korean?
＊＊A: ええ、そです。
A: aa, so desu.
Yes, I am.
＊＊Q: シンさんは　アメリカじんですか。
Q: Shinsan wa americanjin desu ka?
Shinsan are you american?
＊＊A:　いいえ、そじゃありません。
A: eei, soja arimasen.
No, I am not.

watwashi and boku. Watashi and boku aren't split into female and male. Boku is only used by boys but it is just used by adolescent boys, kinda like slang and it is unsightly for girls to use. You should be using watashi if you are a guy and your over 19 or 18 in US. Boku is a kids word so let the kids use it!!!

bokuwa kawaii desu ka?
ぼくは　かわいですか。

ex. If someone goes::

A. Sumimasen, O nameawa nandesuka?
＊＊A:すめません　お　なまえは　なんですか。
B. (hemitsu**last name) Shin desu. (you dont have to use watashi because your talking about your self)
＊＊B:＊＊ひみつ＊＊　シンです。

ex2.(where you would use it)

＊＊A:すみません　ともだちの　なまえは　なんですか。
A. Sumimasen tomodachi no nameawa nandesuka?
***mental thought:: Why do you want to know his name!!! I'm cuter!!!***
＊＊Ｂ：ステイーブンです。でも　わたしの　なまえは　シソです。
B. Stevesan desu, demo watashino nameawa shin desu.


Anata*** Try not to use this unless your really buddy buddy.
Also in groups you wont be using anata anyways so get into the habit of just using: Name-san/chan/kun/sama/sensei

*useless fact* in most Asian countries your already 1 when your born so add one to your americagin age


Wa and no Particles
Bad example because of the actual sentence but selecting one that people seem to know.

あなたの　なまえは　なんですか。
Anatano namea wa nandesu ka?
your name is?

No is used to recognize relationships between nouns in the sentence where as Wa is used to identify subject (someone or something).

** ano is japanese for Umm (just a filler try not to use it but~~~ i still like it when onnanohito's use it... kawaii desu yone.... )

Katakana- Just memorize frequently used words.
Kanji- memorize about 3000-4000 of them to read newspapers... rofl... TT.TT
Hiragana- created by women because it was easier then Kanji... <3 thank you so much TT.TT

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by Mueti

Anybody else taking the JLPT this year (specifically: level 1)? I'd just like to have someone to share the pain of failing with.

...
I'm borderline with lvl 2, 1 is freaking hardcore i-learn-more-grammar-than-any-native-will-ever-know insane.
Also you must be a genius of some sort (that or chinese/korean) xD
Well good luck, i'm guessing you're doing it in december

Originally Posted by Shindesu

Shitsureeshimasu~
Don't know if anyone corrected these, Just caught my eye so...
Btw I sometimes go off topic...

Ohayoo or ohayoo gozaimasu- In the Morning**
Konichi wa- Greeting in the Afternoon**
Konban wa- Greeting in the Evening**
Sayonara- only say if you wont be seeing them for a long period of time.
Shitreishimasu- Bye
Jya mata- bye(Literal translation:: well then, again)

shitsurei shimasu = more like 'excuse me' (When knocking on the door and entering a room to a superior)
Or when leaving a room too, it's the same 'excuse me' kinda sense.

If someone asks you a yes or no question- Hai is a answer you can give but hai from the context of whats asked can just mean that you understand whats going on but it wont mean Yes. Instead try to use aa more so then hai.

Q: Shinsan wa kangokujin desu ka?
Shinsan are you korean?
A: aa, so desu.
Yes, I am.
Q: Shinsan wa americanjin desu ka?
Shinsan are you american?
A: eei, soja arimasen.
No, I am not.

aa, is similar nuance as 'aaah' in english, if someone asks us 'are you korean' we're not likely to go 'aaah, yes i am' (sounds like you're unsure)
In the negative sense... hmm naturally at least when thousands of japanese ask if im i'm american x.x - i usually reply, "iie/chigaimasu, igirisujin desu'
simply 'nope, i'm british'
but grammar wise, it isn't wrong as such..

watwashi and boku. Watashi and boku aren't split into female and male. Boku is only used by boys but it is just used by adolescent boys, kinda like slang and it is unsightly for girls to use. You should be using watashi if you are a guy and your over 19 or 18 in US. Boku is a kids word so let the kids use it!!!

Just outta curiousity, where are you quoting from (or who rather)
I hear uni girls use 'boku' all the time, it isn't reccomended, but as changing society goes, girls are getting less feminine over there. Boku is generally used over 20 or if they're somewhat cooler (imo, lol) they use 'ore'
but this is in a casual situation, in a workplace i figure they'd use 'watashi'

A. Sumimasen, O nameawa nandesuka?
B. (hemitsu**last name) Shin desu. (you dont have to use watashi because your talking about your self)

yep, the more japanese you know and hear, the more you'll notice pronouns aren't used much anyways.

A. Sumimasen tomodachi no nameawa nandesuka?
***mental thought:: Why do you want to know his name!!! I'm cuter!!!***
B. Stevesan desu, demo watashino nameawa shin desu.

In that sense its watashi + no = my.

Anata*** Try not to use this unless your really buddy buddy.
Also in groups you wont be using anata anyways so get into the habit of just using: Name-san/chan/kun/sama/sensei

the amount of times i get caught out on forgetting peeps names and i can't go 'you' xD - but yes, it's usually their names you refer to.

Wa and no Particles
Bad example because of the actual sentence but selecting one that people seem to know.

Anatano namea wa nandesu ka?
your name is?

No is used to recognize relationships between nouns in the sentence where as Wa is used to identify subject (someone or something).

there are many many uses for those particles, but on a simple basic case, those are more or less correct.

** ano is japanese for Umm (just a filler try not to use it but~~~ i still like it when onnanohito's use it... kawaii desu yone.... )

Katakana- Just memorize frequently used words.

agreed.

Kanji- memorize about 3000-4000 of them to read newspapers... rofl... TT.TT

actually get 1000 down, learn 5000 vocab and you can more or less read newspapers and magazines not too badly

Hiragana- created by women because it was easier then Kanji... <3 thank you so much TT.TT

kinda find that hard to believe, but hey, feel free to academically prove me wrong

[Shindesu]

ごめなさい。
Gomenasai~
I should of explained all my explainations
I was just using shitsuree shimasu to be cute. TT.TT
literal translation for shitsuree shimasu:: I'm going to bother you.

Originally Posted by Mystique

...


Just outta curiousity, where are you quoting from (or who rather)
I hear uni girls use 'boku' all the time, it isn't reccomended, but as changing society goes, girls are getting less feminine over there. Boku is generally used over 20 or if they're somewhat cooler (imo, lol) they use 'ore'
but this is in a casual situation, in a workplace i figure they'd use 'watashi'



kinda find that hard to believe, but hey, feel free to academically prove me wrong

**background info I am Korean and I have relatives in Korea and Japan and plan to live in both countries after I'm done with school. So I'm brushing up on my にほんご and かんごくご.**
My Aunts said the same thing with what you said about Boku but then I talked to my professors thats the info they gave me. . Also I was Born there, lived, and just lived there for a bit and I understand times have changed and I know girls use boku. Just so you know I use boku and anata just because I'm horrible with names and dont mind it but I believe everyone should have that I info. Just throwing out information so people would not make simple mistakes thinking that they can use it anywhere or at the very least at least you know that what your saying and not just saying it.

So If I say anything that might be incorrect I won't post it but I'll post on anything that might pertain to the subject so that people can have a better understanding.

Heian Period (794-1192) as simplified forms of whole kanji that conveyed sound rather than meaning. Hiragana was often used by women, who were denied the education in Chinese classics afforded to men and, as a result, Hiragana came to be known as onnade (or women's hand).

One more thing

aa, so desu. doesn't sound like Ah, so desu.
ええ　そです。　Not　あ　そです。
eh so desu not ah so desu
Just fyi. I don't know if thats what you meant by it sounding like your unsure.


Arigato Mystique-san I look forward for your replies from now on.

ありがと　メスチクさん。
あの、 メスチクさんは　にほんいくですか。　

[WanderingKnight]

Anybody else taking the JLPT this year (specifically: level 1)? I'd just like to have someone to share the pain of failing with.

Whoa, level 1?!

As in, 2000 kanji?!

Good luck there, bro. You've more than earned my respect though by just being able to be anywhere near that level.

[LiberLibri]

ぼく is in principle for males who regards themselves as physically or mentally young and fresh. However, since 1960s also young girls have sometimes employed ぼく as the first person pronoun. At first the phenomenon began in schools for girls from upper class, and then it spread out into large communities. (I suspect the influence of Hagio Moto and her colleagues, though unproven).

They cherished ぼく because it sounded to them sexually neutral. You know some children in puberty cannot accept their given sex/gender so that they refuse to be treated in masculine/feminine ways. In general, such tendency is more conspicuous in girls because of, I think, the rapid physiological change. It also has some relation with the gender inequality still left in our society. Anyway, some girls began to use ぼく to express their refusal to accept feminine-self.

Today the use of ぼく by girls become so usual that you cannot think everyone with the pronoun has such sensitive thoughts. In fact it is just a fashion; there are plenty of girls using ぼく in animes and mangas, and most of them do so only to make themselves distinguishable from others. In other words, it is nothing but what is so-called 属性 (zokusei), a pretty tag sticking to a character.

In short, many girls now use ぼく which ever in reality or in fictions, but you should not regard it as regular / authentic / proper custom.

I opened the visitors board. You may write Japanese sentence there. I will correct it when I have time.

[Ottocycle]

Hello guys, elementary learner here. I come with a question:

It's about the format (location)(particle)(verb). E.g. 電車に乗る、家で食べる、バスを降りる

Right now the information I have isn't clear enough on which particle to use when, へ aside of course. Would someone be kind enough as to give me a guideline or two?

[RandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Mueti

Anybody else taking the JLPT this year (specifically: level 1)? I'd just like to have someone to share the pain of failing with.

I'm taking Ikkyuu this year, but I'm doing my darndest to actually pass the thing. I'm using the remainder of this month to get my kanji up to speed, then October and November to fill in the gaps in my vocabulary and grammar. A cursory glance at the grammar stuff seems to indicate that, aside from some tricky nuance things, a lot are based on Classical Japanese turns of phrase, which I'm fortunate enough to have studied on my own a while back. So while I still may end up taking it again next year, at least I'll be that much closer to passing.

Originally Posted by humbug23

Hello guys, elementary learner here. I come with a question:

It's about the format (location)(particle)(verb). E.g. 電車に乗る、家で食べる、バスを降りる

Right now the information I have isn't clear enough on which particle to use when, へ aside of course. Would someone be kind enough as to give me a guideline or two?

As a general rule, に is interchangeable with へ except when there would be confusion over the location being the destination point of an action or simply where something is. に vs. で works in that に is where something or someone is, while で is where (or the means by which) an action takes place. を is just the direct object, though it doesn't always line up with the Indo-European conception of such.

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by humbug23

Hello guys, elementary learner here. I come with a question:

It's about the format (location)(particle)(verb). E.g. 電車に乗る、家で食べる、バスを降りる

Right now the information I have isn't clear enough on which particle to use when, へ aside of course. Would someone be kind enough as to give me a guideline or two?

yep yep, to add to randomguy's stuff:

電車に乗る
I get on/board the train.
the ni, is used when going somewhere, passing from one location to the other, the main reason is bolded below.
部屋に入る
heya ni hairu = I enter the room.
An easier way is to just auto attach 'ni' to 'noru' as we can only get in or out of transport anyways.

家で食べる
I eat at home.
The で in this sense is to place an action at a location, in other words it's "at"
I do something at somewhere.
あそこで食べた = I ate over there.
Also...
電車で来ました = I came by train.
(another use for 'de')
You often hear in anime この手で。。。= with/by these hands (i did something)

バスを降りる
I get off the bus.
Yeah i know it sucks. Why is 'getting on' = ni, but 'getting off' = wo
It just is (is what my teacher said)
Hence she told us to memorise it.
Whenever you're entering another space, then think of 'ni'
But when you're leaving somewhere;
家を出る = I leave the house.
バスを降りる = I get off the bus.

Then 'wo' is used. It's not doing something to the object, this 'wo' seems to be for when you exit out of somewhere.
（Just to let you know, particles in japanese have many many uses, but for basics, these are the main rules)

As for へ (e), well once i passed beginners Japanese, tbh i stopped using it, since 'ni' is perfectly fine as well. へis only mainly used with 'ikimasu', so it's your choice.

I kinda like the beginners questions, takes me back many years which i often find i need a crash course on basic stuff anyways, so it's nice to be reminded ^^

[Ottocycle]

Many thanks, both of you. Though there's a little something I'll bring up...

What about ～に勤める？I'm quite sure 'ni' is used for it, but it does mean "I work at..."

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by humbug23

Many thanks, both of you. Though there's a little something I'll bring up...

What about ～に勤める？I'm quite sure 'ni' is used for it, but it does mean "I work at..."

I know by nature that's its 'ni' - but that doesn't help if i can't explain 'why' so I had to research a little to find a textbook reason, anyone else can feel free to add to this.

勤める
more info

勤める(P); 務める(P); 努める(P) 【つとめる】 (v1) (1) to serve; to fill a post; to serve under; to work (for); (2) to exert oneself; to endeavor; to be diligent; (3) to play (the part of)

Sure it may "literally mean" serve, but how often would the most natural translation of a sentence using 勤める include "serve"? Usually taken in the sense of 'to work'

つとめる (which can be rendered as 勤める、努める、務める、勉める、力める）has various meanings:

私 (わたし) の父 (ちち) は外務省 (がいむしょう) に勤めている。
My father serves in the Foreign Ministry.

実 (じつ) は来春 (らいしゅん) から東京 (とうきょう) に勤めることになったのです。
To tell the truth, from next spring I'm going to work in Tokyo.

I suspect the reason is probably that 勤める is somewhat similar to 通う - the に is there because you go there to work / attend school. Either that or because に with 勤める is often denoting who you are working for - and that would not be marked with で

通う 【かよう】 (v5u) (1) to go back and forth; to ply between; (2) to commute; to attend (school, church, etc.); (P)

彼 (かれ) は一週間 (いっしゅうかん) も学校 (がっこう) に通えないでいる。
He has not been able to attend school for a week.

* There are some examples of the opposite usage ~ 1/40 as common.

私は千葉 (ちば) 県民 (けんみん) ですが、東京で勤めています。
I am citizen of Chiba, but work in (at) Tokyo.

And this i missed, gomen~

Originally Posted by Shindesu

One more thing

aa, so desu. doesn't sound like Ah, so desu.
ええ　そです。　Not　あ　そです。
eh so desu not ah so desu
Just fyi. I don't know if thats what you meant by it sounding like your unsure.

Arigato Mystique-san I look forward for your replies from now on.

ありがと　メスチクさん。
あの、 メスチクさんは　にほんいくですか。　

I meant the general use of ああ or ええ - still sounds like a filler to me, it's used to soften a sentence or agree quietly, but to answer a simple question of 'are you korean' - we'd naturally answer 'yes' or 'no' - so the nuance seems off to me for that example is all I'm saying. "sou desu" is generally translated as 'that's right, so it feels more natural to be preceded by 'hai, sou desu'.

And "douitashimashite"
Any other questions you wanna personally ask me, send a PM or write on my message profile board, English or Japanese is fine eitherway

[Mueti]

Originally Posted by Mystique

...
I'm borderline with lvl 2, 1 is freaking hardcore i-learn-more-grammar-than-any-native-will-ever-know insane.
Also you must be a genius of some sort (that or chinese/korean) xD
Well good luck, i'm guessing you're doing it in december

I believe it is held globally on the first sunday of december. And thanks. I can also assure that I am not a genius of any sort.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Whoa, level 1?!

As in, 2000 kanji?!

Good luck there, bro. You've more than earned my respect though by just being able to be anywhere near that level.

I think that I'm still about 200 Kanji away from mastering the amount technically required by level 1. There might very well come up some compound-questions where I'll have to guess. But the reading and listening comprehension parts shouldn't pose much of a problem either way. And thanks to you as well, of course.

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

I'm taking Ikkyuu this year, but I'm doing my darndest to actually pass the thing. I'm using the remainder of this month to get my kanji up to speed, then October and November to fill in the gaps in my vocabulary and grammar. A cursory glance at the grammar stuff seems to indicate that, aside from some tricky nuance things, a lot are based on Classical Japanese turns of phrase, which I'm fortunate enough to have studied on my own a while back. So while I still may end up taking it again next year, at least I'll be that much closer to passing.

Oh, of course I'll do my best to pass it as well. But I don't really have any specific reason for passing - I'd just like to know whether or not I can do it. Or, as it said in the test guide that came with the application form:
[x]自分の実力が知りたい

[Kang Seung Jae]

I Admit I'm stumped at translating this.... Anyone able to help?