(CR) Gosick

[Dist]

I watched the first episode and .. I'm not sure what I just wasted 20 minutes on. Nothing really happened .. The first episode is the most important, it should pull you in as an interesting show .. but this didn't do that.

And so in overrall ... '' meh ''. I guess I'll watch atleast the second episode.

[witchfan]

I'm flattered the theory I pulled out my ass steers up so much discussion. :P

First off, to clarify: I don't think my theory has flaws that make it illogical (like not being able to open a lock by shooting it). I think it has a lot of flaws, such as the ones you pointed, that take a lot of previous assumptions, and would be poor conclusions based on the evidence given. But I do believe it *works*.

While that sounds plausible at first glance, there is one thing that is left unaccounted for.

The bullet the maid shot through the door lock.

Even if we assume that she had shot the fortune teller, had her located close to the door, closed the door with the possible duplicate key, hid the gun (or returned the same gun the maid used in it's place) and staged everything so the maid ends up being the one that looked like she killed the maid (or the man servant, as Grevil did consider him a suspect) that doesn't explain how the bullet the maid shot through the door and got through to the other side isn't present on the victims body (after all, the body was in alignment with the direction of the maids bullet, and since we do know that a bullet can get through the door, that would mean the victim would have two injuries, one in the head which killed her (the daughter's bullet) and the maids bullet which was inflected post-mortem (most likely in her chest going by her positioning) Btw, the maid was the one who was shown in the flashback trying to open the door, so that also debunks this theory.

Good observations!

- If they showed her trying to "force open" the door, then this debunks my theory, unless the testimony was inaccurate (not like there's any chance my theory's true in the first place though ;p). The scene I remember shows the maid only touching the door, not actually trying to open it (presumably the daughter acted convincingly enough that she wouldn't even bother). It could've very well be on impulse (I'm sure I did it plenty of times).
- As for the two bullets: first, since we're assuming the bullet would *not* pass through the lock, it could simply fall on the floor. Second, we're assuming this was a spontaneous (if clever) incident, rather than a well-planned one. The daughter hoped the servants would be too worried to note this, and won't bother looking at the floor once they see a corpse. I think the floor was also made of wood (or was it a carpet?) so there was no sound of metal when the bullet dropped. She could then remove the second bullet. If they did notice it, no harm done. The locked room is still there, right? It just means the maid won't be as suspicious.
(Also, if we're assuming the bullet *can* pass through the door, it will only pass in one narrow area. It should be easy to place her dead body - killed with a knife or somesuch to the eye - in that approximate location. We would then have to assume the body is pushed back a little by the gun, too, though. So this is a pretty piss poor solution).

But if she was the culprit, she wouldn't want to rais any further suspension to her right? Then she wouldn't give a detective a yacht with a suspension invitation to a secret society right?

I'm virtually writing my own mystery here . Since you understand this is already an outrageous theory: well, there are plenty of reasons a member of a secret cult (or whatever that rabbit thing is) would want to invite someone to their meeting. Here's one: she assumed the detective was clever (though not clever enough), and assumed the possibility of him discovering the letter on the yacht was high. She also assumed he might re-examine the incident and find further, "dangerous' evidence. So what's the best way to eliminate a detective? Give him a trail, a "mysterious invitation" to some secret society... and remove him from the world of the living, so to speak. No suspicion is placed on her (who knows where the detective found the invitation in? And besides, the invitation was not suspicious from a criminology perspective in the least), and the last hope for the truth to be found (or so she thinks), disappears.
(Alternatively, of course, she might've simply invited him because he seemed worthy. The yacht was a test to see if he'd bite).

As for the condition of the lock being apparent to the servants, you need to remember that according to the flashback, the maid understood nothing the granddaughter had said (a large hole in the accomplice theory, the language barrier between the two) and went by her own to get the gun. Going by the solution Vicotrique had given, it would make sense for her to know that the condition of the lock was bad enough for her to break it open by shooting it through.

She understood a little bit, I'm assuming, unless the police institute brought a translator who knows Arabic. At the very least, it's probable she could communicate, at least to an extent, or the interactions shown in the door scene would be unlikely. I've known a lot of foreign workers and was able to communicate with them in English (English isn't my native language, btw) and hand gestures, even though they were terrible speakers. The maid lived there for years - it's highly probable she would've at least picked up some language skills during her stay.

Yes, but we also noted that these possibilities had more holes in them than the one Victorique had given as well (the maid and granddaughter being accomplices doesn't work out because of the language barrier, the granddaughter being the one who killed her in a passionate moment doesn't work because the maids bullet isn't around, and it wasn't someone from outside because the room was locked completely) Remember that she had given a possible solution from the information she had been given, and it wasn't her who was so convinced it happened this way, Grevil was the one who had took what she said and was already in the elevator even before she finished telling him about the motive. If anything, the one who was dump and rash was Grevil for not waitng or at least thinking about what she had said.

I think she said very clearly that the maid is the culprit. She left no room for doubt. The theory I'm going with now is extremely far-fetched, and I'm going with for my own amusement, but I'd still say it's not less plausible than the actual (well, 99%) solution. I don't even see how her theory *works*, given what we've pointed out (rooms can't be opened with gun shots, let alone someone's eyeball; the maid had to know the fortune teller would cooperate and make absolutely no sound; she had to know nobody would open the door by force; she had to be confident she'd succeed, etc...). I can't see how Victorique could be so confident in a theory as ridiculous, if not more ridiculous than my own.

By the way, I'd like to say that it's your assumption that an outsider as culprit is impossible. Nothing about there being a single key was stated, as far as I remember. They gave us so few details we're assuming things to make it more plausible, that's how bad it is.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by thesebzgal

Don't forget Sunako now. The character sucked, but Yuuki (Aoi, not Natsuno) didn't

Apologies for the oversight.

Hmm ... I also thought she did a good job as Mio in TWGOK - shoulda mentioned that as well!

****

Am still waiting for the first 2 LN to arrive, but have read a few chapters of the manga....

Perhaps the thing that has stood out to me the strongest between comparing the two medium (anime and manga) is the difference in presenting how Victorique and Kazuya initially got to know each other.

Maybe it should be no surprise that the anime had a much faster (rushed?) presentation, perhaps so they could get right to the meat of the story - 24 episodes worth, no doubt, although I wonder if it will be one long story or a series of little stories?

The manga chapters show it more gradually (and perhaps the LNs do as well? - can anyone who has already read these give feedback on this point of comparison), and this is more to my personal taste, mainly because one of the elements in a story I ... erm ... "savor" the most is the growth of relationships (romantic or otherwise) between the characters.

Therefore the only thing I wished was done different in the anime was more length to the initial development of the relationship between the main characters - but to be fair maybe there was so much story material that Bones wanted to present they kinda rushed through this part?

Anyone else have any thoughts or heard about this aspect of the story?

[SuzushinaYuriko]

I read the light novels a while ago, so I don't remember all the details, but what I do remember is that Kazuya knew Victorique and Grevil from the start and that Avril (Kazuya's friend) told him about the Queen Berry instead of him reading it from a book.

[Dop]

Originally Posted by Haak

Just out of curiosity, was this series supposed to be called "Gothic" except Engrish screwed it over? Or is it actually supposed to be called "Gosick".

I think that if you phonetically transpose 'Gothic' to Japanese, and then phonetically transpose it back, you get 'Gosick'. I'm no expert, but I don't think Japanese has the 'th' sound, which is why "Thank you" is often said as "Sank you".

[Deathkillz]

I dunno about you guys but the first 30 secs of the OP sounds like the OP of Gurren Lagann for me

[Kismet-chan]

Originally Posted by Dop

I think that if you phonetically transpose 'Gothic' to Japanese, and then phonetically transpose it back, you get 'Gosick'. I'm no expert, but I don't think Japanese has the 'th' sound, which is why "Thank you" is often said as "Sank you".

You're 100% right. Technically the title is "Gothic" for anyone who wants to be exact about it.

Now as to why the creator called it that/did it that way, I have no idea.

[Wolfwood2]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

A hilarious moment with Kazuya messing around with the luggage so they had something manageable. If he had to drag all that stuff (if that was even possible) they'd never have gotten anywhere.

I expect that at some point in episode 2, they'll end up needing one of the pieces of gear Kazuya insisted on leaving behind. Probably the compass.

[DezoPenguin]

Originally Posted by Mycanid

Am still waiting for the first 2 LN to arrive, but have read a few chapters of the manga....

Perhaps the thing that has stood out to me the strongest between comparing the two medium (anime and manga) is the difference in presenting how Victorique and Kazuya initially got to know each other.

Maybe it should be no surprise that the anime had a much faster (rushed?) presentation, perhaps so they could get right to the meat of the story - 24 episodes worth, no doubt, although I wonder if it will be one long story or a series of little stories?

The manga chapters show it more gradually (and perhaps the LNs do as well? - can anyone who has already read these give feedback on this point of comparison), and this is more to my personal taste, mainly because one of the elements in a story I ... erm ... "savor" the most is the growth of relationships (romantic or otherwise) between the characters.

Therefore the only thing I wished was done different in the anime was more length to the initial development of the relationship between the main characters - but to be fair maybe there was so much story material that Bones wanted to present they kinda rushed through this part?

Anyone else have any thoughts or heard about this aspect of the story?

The LNs did have the Roxanne mystery presented on the first meeting. However, I will note, for what it's worth, that Kazuya and Victorique spent 12 pages talking together before the mystery came up, and the mystery part only took 11 pages in the chapter.

Spoiler for Spoiler concerning the first LN and the nature of the scenes of the first anime episode:

For those who think the mystery took too little time--a complaint I'm seeing a lot from people whose first exposure to the series is not via the LNs!--the murder of Roxanne is by no means a complete story. In essence, it's an "introduction to Victorique's deductive powers"; the same way that in, for example, The Hound of the Baskervilles Sherlock Holmes makes a number of deductions about Dr. Mortimer from Dr. Mortimer's stick, which he'd left behind in the room. The point of the scene isn't really to present any great and clever mystery; it's to show the audience that the detective really has great powers of observation and deduction so that we know what to expect when she confronts the "real" story. When you realize that the first light novel is being adapted over a series of several anime episodes--not sure how many, though an animejet article suggested 4?--you'll see why things got a little rushed.

To answer another question that's been obliquely asked, that is, why a Japanese teenager as the hero in a European country, there are probably plenty of reasons but the obvious one is that, as the Watson of the story, he serves as the "proxy" for the audience. In the same was as Dr. John Watson represented the ordinary, middle-class English reader of the Strand Magazine, Beeton's Christmas Annual, and other publications in which Sherlock Holmes appeared, so does Kazuya represent the Japanese teenagers who are the people actually reading the light novels. He's someone that they can immediately understand and identify with, and gives them the chance to see the setting via a character whose reactions and thoughts would be at least somewhat similar to their own.

[Same_Shark]

Originally Posted by yukirosuzuka

I read the light novels a while ago, so I don't remember all the details, but what I do remember is that Kazuya knew Victorique and Grevil from the start and that Avril (Kazuya's friend) told him about the Queen Berry instead of him reading it from a book.

Yep! You're rght about that and honestly, the lack of Avril is the only thing that bothered me about the first episode.

Also, you all have to remember, the story of Gosick was not limited to Gosick, but the the GosickS series. All of the volumes of GosickS takes place before, after, or between the different volumes of Gosick.

[FlareKnight]

The lack of Avril was a bit strange, but guess they will introduce her later. Was in the OP so not like they eliminated her or anything.

Originally Posted by Wolfwood2

I expect that at some point in episode 2, they'll end up needing one of the pieces of gear Kazuya insisted on leaving behind. Probably the compass.

Isn't that how life always seems to work ? I'm sure many of the things she packed had useful properties to them. But in reality can't carry that much stuff. We'll see if he gets burned by his rash unpacking.

[Same_Shark]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

The lack of Avril was a bit strange, but guess they will introduce her later. Was in the OP so not like they eliminated her or anything.
Isn't that how life always seems to work ? I'm sure many of the things she packed had useful properties to them. But in reality can't carry that much stuff. We'll see if he gets burned by his rash unpacking.

He most likely will. Victorique ALWAYS gets the last word.

[Qikz]

That was really suprisingly entertaining. I love the kind of mystery things. Especially when the mysteries remind me of a Sherlock Holmes story.

[Essa Maneira]

Originally Posted by Dop

I think that if you phonetically transpose 'Gothic' to Japanese, and then phonetically transpose it back, you get 'Gosick'. I'm no expert, but I don't think Japanese has the 'th' sound, which is why "Thank you" is often said as "Sank you".

the word "Gosick" makes a double meaning, the"th" sound will be voice out when the tip of the mouth is pointing upward beyond the tooth. but this case, the "thi" sound translate in jap will be "shi" which is the mouth is pointing upward but deeper below the gumline. (try it for yourself).

and why the title called Gosick if the original was Gothic, what is the connection between that title in the main story?...

take note: some of the japanese VA's i heard "si" sound..

[felix]

Originally Posted by Essa Maneira

and why the title called Gosick if the original was Gothic

So Japanse people can read it easily.

[aeriolewinters]

Spoiler for A shoutout to Rozen Maiden.....:

/end cool pic

[DragoZERO]

Awesome! I really loved the first episode. So many things to complement. Oh man. This will probably be the #1 for this season.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

The LNs did have the Roxanne mystery presented on the first meeting. However, I will note, for what it's worth, that Kazuya and Victorique spent 12 pages talking together before the mystery came up, and the mystery part only took 11 pages in the chapter.

Spoiler for Spoiler concerning the first LN and the nature of the scenes of the first anime episode:

For those who think the mystery took too little time--a complaint I'm seeing a lot from people whose first exposure to the series is not via the LNs!--the murder of Roxanne is by no means a complete story. In essence, it's an "introduction to Victorique's deductive powers"; the same way that in, for example, The Hound of the Baskervilles Sherlock Holmes makes a number of deductions about Dr. Mortimer from Dr. Mortimer's stick, which he'd left behind in the room. The point of the scene isn't really to present any great and clever mystery; it's to show the audience that the detective really has great powers of observation and deduction so that we know what to expect when she confronts the "real" story. When you realize that the first light novel is being adapted over a series of several anime episodes--not sure how many, though an animejet article suggested 4?--you'll see why things got a little rushed.

Hmm ... okay - good to know. I guess it's that "11 pages worth of talking before the mystery came up" that I see reflected in the manga chapters somewhat.

Ah well, different mediums of the arts are more conducive to different modes of presentation of a subject.

Originally Posted by Same_Shark

Yep! You're rght about that and honestly, the lack of Avril is the only thing that bothered me about the first episode.

Also, you all have to remember, the story of Gosick was not limited to Gosick, but the the GosickS series. All of the volumes of GosickS takes place before, after, or between the different volumes of Gosick.

Avril also pops up very early on in the manga chapters - thanks for mentioning it, I was kinda wondering about that as well, especially as Avril briefly shows up in the Opening credits.

***

Anyhoo, thanks for the feedback.

Now if only the volumes would finally ARRIVE I could have seen this for myself....

[Arabesque]

I apologise if some of my comments below are not really that thought out, I'm a bit tired today.

Spoiler for alternative theories:

Originally Posted by Saturn Beaver

However, now that I think about it again, it makes a bit of sense, I guess. After all, like you said Grevil is the one who rushed, and Victorique really doesn't have too much to go on than what Grevil has just informed her. I think Grevil doesn't really ask for advice, just checking that he doesn't miss anything (and boy did he missed it) by running it through a smart third party. In that case, Victorique just mentioned things that she felt is suspicious and Grevil has missed, and not bothering to mention things that Grevil also missed but ultimately doesn't matter that much anyway (disproving the other suspects).

Well, the thing is I think Grevil sort of thought about the case for all of a second, gave up and ran to Victorique afterwards >_> Another problem is that Grevil (being the actual detective here) should've been the one to point out all of these holes and try and engage in an actual discussion to try and see if this theory was sound. But he didn't, and that's the real problem here.

Originally Posted by witchfan

I'm flattered the theory I pulled out my ass steers up so much discussion. :P

First off, to clarify: I don't think my theory has flaws that make it illogical (like not being able to open a lock by shooting it). I think it has a lot of flaws, such as the ones you pointed, that take a lot of previous assumptions, and would be poor conclusions based on the evidence given. But I do believe it *works*.

Well, not to say that I didn't know that this had at least some sort of crack theory somewhere in it , but I don't like to just say ''the solution the story gave was stupid, I can give a different solution and it'll be the same as it'' and then leave it at that. It's best to always check before making judgments.

I don't think that your theory is illogical (it requires a higher suspension of disbelieve than Victorique's, but it could be valid) however I think that your theory is less plausible than the one she gave (i.e. the one she presented was the one most consistent with the evidence) while yours has some flaws (such as the second bullet) that make it less likely.

Originally Posted by witchfan

- As for the two bullets: first, since we're assuming the bullet would *not* pass through the lock, it could simply fall on the floor. Second, we're assuming this was a spontaneous (if clever) incident, rather than a well-planned one. The daughter hoped the servants would be too worried to note this, and won't bother looking at the floor once they see a corpse. I think the floor was also made of wood (or was it a carpet?) so there was no sound of metal when the bullet dropped. She could then remove the second bullet. If they did notice it, no harm done. The locked room is still there, right? It just means the maid won't be as suspicious.
(Also, if we're assuming the bullet *can* pass through the door, it will only pass in one narrow area. It should be easy to place her dead body - killed with a knife or somesuch to the eye - in that approximate location. We would then have to assume the body is pushed back a little by the gun, too, though. So this is a pretty piss poor solution).

If we assume that the bullet didn't pass through the hole then that means it should still be in the door lock right? But since we do know that if they investigated into the key hole, they wont find the bullet the maid had shot, then that brings us back to square one. Now if you say that the culprit (in this case the granddaughter) then she couldn't have done it without being noticed (and also, it becomes unlikely that she even thought of that if this plan was on the fly like you assume). There is also the blood splatter from the eye of the victim on the key hole that well be compatible with Victorique's solution.

Now if we do assume that the bullet passed, but like you said simply fell to the floor (in a stroke of luck) and she picked it up, we have the issue of her not being able to pick the bullet quickly due to the temperature of the bullet, and that the bullet wouldn't be intact much (it logically would shatter into several pieces in this case)

(Also, the wound is a bullet wound, knife wounds are different)

Originally Posted by witchfan

I'm virtually writing my own mystery here .

I noticed All I have to say about your theory about the granddaughter sending Grevil that invitation to remove him from the world is that would cause her more harm than good (she would be attracting attention again) however the one about her possibly ''rewarding'' him into joining this society is more plausible.

Originally Posted by witchfan

By the way, I'd like to say that it's your assumption that an outsider as culprit is impossible. Nothing about there being a single key was stated, as far as I remember. They gave us so few details we're assuming things to make it more plausible, that's how bad it is.

Having an outsider being the culprit though makes any other theory even more difficult to prove *_* I mean, they couldn't have known that the maid would shoot the door in the first place for example.

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

I dunno about you guys but the first 30 secs of the OP sounds like the OP of Gurren Lagann for me

Yeah, this was mentioned a couple of times. And yeah, the opening is very Gurren Lagann sounding funny because I can't imagine anything resembling this show to that one.

Spoiler for oh and future episode talk:

Originally Posted by Same_Shark

Yep! You're rght about that and honestly, the lack of Avril is the only thing that bothered me about the first episode.

Also, you all have to remember, the story of Gosick was not limited to Gosick, but the the GosickS series. All of the volumes of GosickS takes place before, after, or between the different volumes of Gosick.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

The lack of Avril was a bit strange, but guess they will introduce her later. Was in the OP so not like they eliminated her or anything.
Isn't that how life always seems to work ? I'm sure many of the things she packed had useful properties to them. But in reality can't carry that much stuff. We'll see if he gets burned by his rash unpacking.

We sort of talked about this earlier in the thread, and thanks to the list that duckroll posted, we know that the reason they removed her from the events of the first novel was because the next events (starting at episode 4, the first novel is going to end at episode 3) will be the story of the drama CD (GosickS: The reaper comes in spring) and it's the story of when Kujo first meet Avril. I would like you guys though to keep these sort of things under spoiler tabs though, as courtesy for the non-novel readers.

[FlareKnight]

Have to say a pretty nice job done with the OP/ED. Not overly fancy, but solid with some nice music for both. Also that's some teacher Kujo has. Think with the history of that nickname that 100 friends is a bit of a lofty goal .