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Old 2014-01-22, 12:05   Link #9621
Sylux
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I think he could have won with hi QCQ pretty fast, because i think it was said that his martial arts are on pair with his masters and remember the fight agains Lina( I think it was V9 C7).
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Old 2014-01-22, 12:06   Link #9622
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Tatsuya says Phalanx would create a situation in which they would stalemate. Decomposition destroys a shield but Phalanx just remakes it.

I said above why I'm unsure on if he can really get through CTGD and why shields in general seem to be his problem.

Quote:
I think he could have won with hi QCQ pretty fast, because i think it was said that his martial arts are on pair with his masters and remember the fight agains Lina( I think it was V9 C7).
His martial arts is definitely in another dimension. He is likely better than Yakumo in pure Martial Arts. He was fighting Tomitsuka with one hand and easily evading all the attacks of a guy going all out. Even up to the end Tomitsuka never got a solid hit on Tatsuya.
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Old 2014-01-22, 12:10   Link #9623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadtheGuy View Post
Tatsuya says Phalanx would create a situation in which they would stalemate. Decomposition destroys a shield but Phalanx just remakes it.
That was what was said in the early volumes .. this is interesting in that it is contradicted by a concept that was re-emphasized in Vol 12 during his battle with Tomisuka:

Quote:
If Gram Demolition was artillery, then Tomitsuka’s Contact-Type Gram Demolition was a wall of steel. Furthermore, that wall was not built from information and was only a massive amount of psions haphazardly wrapped around him. Even for Tatsuya, breaking through this line of defense to directly affect Tomitsuka with magic was no easy task.
In that regard, using the phenomena brought on by magic to attack could not be stopped by psion armor.
Yet, so long as Tatsuya still held onto the handicap of not utilizing attacks through the Idea, then he was a deficient Magician who could not use magic that directly influenced physical phenomena.
..Which implies that Tatsuya can potentially target something through the IDEA and therefore avoid any barriers?
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Old 2014-01-22, 12:12   Link #9624
BadtheGuy
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That goes back to all my posts and why I'm so confused. What exactly does the handicap line mean? Does it imply Tatsuya is holding back and he really can target through a shield or does it just mean that Tatsuya is disadvantaged by nature.

I'm leaning towards he's just disadvantaged and anything that guards the personal information of an opponent either by shielding or concealment is the weakpoint of decomposition.

Honestly, weakpoint isn't even accurate. It's more like the advantage/strength of defensive magics versus offensive magics. You need to peel away or circumvent the effects of the defense to apply your offense.
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Old 2014-01-22, 12:19   Link #9625
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I always assumed it referred to Tats giving himself a handicap so as not to expose his true abilities.
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Old 2014-01-22, 12:44   Link #9626
BadtheGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animeisinteresting View Post
I always assumed it referred to Tats giving himself a handicap so as not to expose his true abilities.
You and a lot of people. What is the handicap though? As for showing his true abilities, he used Far Shot/Gram Dispersion/Mist Dispersion and I think Flash Cast. Though it was made obvious no one could tell what he was really doing for any of them.

Honestly it's unrealistic to think he would use Mist Dispersion even if he could. Pretty obvious he used it because it wouldn't take effect.

But the question remains if he could have found a way? If he could, he obviously wouldn't go through with it and that would make sense as to what his handicap was.

But I'm not convinced he could without first making a weakness in the shield.

On another note. I remember someone suggesting using Material Burst on a much smaller scale for anti-personel purpose. That seems ridiculous considering conversion of a drop of water blew that ship to hell and then some.

How small would the mass have to be for anti-personal use? Is it even possible?
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Old 2014-01-22, 12:47   Link #9627
bietchie11
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Originally Posted by iCloudz7 View Post
Actually Phalanx is not a problem for Tatsuya, the only counter to Tatsuya is Parade.

Quick question: Can Tatsuya overwrite CTGD just using a Psion Wave? Like Using his GD on Tomitsuka CTGD using more psions?
He can and he did it: High density Psion block that can shred through his armor even if it recovers.
Fight fire with fire.
-------------------
Newly-introduced concept often is perceived to have infinite strength in their area of expertise.
For example:
-People often think body armor, whose job is block bullets, will definitely protect them from bullets when they first heard about it. Assuming they have infinite strength in "blocking bullets". That's laughable.

Psion armor can block magic. Yeah, theoretically, with infinite information strength.
Just like shield can block sword if they have infinite hardness.
But that's never the case: Wooden shield can't block sharp sword since its hardness is low.
Same goes for Phalanx and Psion armor.
-Phalanx: people don't think eachof his attacks can pierce through many barriers and he can fire faster than shields created.
-Gram Demo: they broke spells since they have higher information strength. But against spell that has higher information strength (another GD for example), it will fail.
-Parade: Tatsuya can see fake and real information body. But he didn't have enough "perceptiveness" to tell the differenccs. If he has, parade will fail.

In conclusion, "defense" is a counter to "attack". Well, isn't that the universal truth?
But it doesn't mean it always success. Strength plays a major part = attrition battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadtheGuy View Post
Tatsuya says Phalanx would create a situation in which they would stalemate. Decomposition destroys a shield but Phalanx just remakes it.
Tatsuya said "attrition war", which is strength vs strength. Not "stalemate", which is equal.
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Last edited by bietchie11; 2014-01-22 at 19:55.
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Old 2014-01-22, 13:04   Link #9628
Hokoga
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I wonder what would happen if Tatsuya lost Regrowth.?
Would he be able to perform other types of Magic, if so how powerful do you think he would be?
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Old 2014-01-22, 13:05   Link #9629
bietchie11
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Originally Posted by BadtheGuy View Post
You and a lot of people. What is the handicap though? As for showing his true abilities, he used Far Shot/Gram Dispersion/Mist Dispersion and I think Flash Cast. Though it was made obvious no one could tell what he was really doing for any of them.

Honestly it's unrealistic to think he would use Mist Dispersion even if he could. Pretty obvious he used it because it wouldn't take effect.

But the question remains if he could have found a way? If he could, he obviously wouldn't go through with it and that would make sense as to what his handicap was.

But I'm not convinced he could without first making a weakness in the shield.

On another note. I remember someone suggesting using Material Burst on a much smaller scale for anti-personel purpose. That seems ridiculous considering conversion of a drop of water blew that ship to hell and then some.

How small would the mass have to be for anti-personal use? Is it even possible?
May be he just aimed at his armor to test it and not his body?
May be because of the duel rules? As in "not severely harm your opponent" and "no martial arts, only magic"?
Maybe he, being a mad scientist, just try to make use of the opportunity to test new things? Which makes sense why he wouldn't use his effective methods/handicap since there is no point in testing,he knows it will work? Which makes sense why he uses Mist Dispersal right away since he wants to confirm his assumption?

May be you should check out some of the previous post( around page 468) since we are going to repeat same things again and again.
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Old 2014-01-22, 13:08   Link #9630
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Actually.
May be we should all be in Tatsuya shoe and make decision.
I think that will be easier to understand.
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Old 2014-01-22, 13:29   Link #9631
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its not like we overrate Tomitsuka.
and, yes, it is very overrating anyone if we compare them with Tatsuya, who has Regrowth, MB, and ES.
which is at the very top of Defense (more to immortality, LOL), Attack Power (that Nuke), and Information (you cannot hide almost everything)

i agree for it is just bad matchup for Tatsuya Againts Tomitsuka in this duel (in this duel only, in real battle tomitsuka wont even have a chance )

Quote:
Quick question: Can Tatsuya overwrite CTGD just using a Psion Wave? Like Using his GD on Tomitsuka CTGD using more psions?
Quick Answer: wont it become a clash of Psion, just like u said. and i suppose the one with more psions win
like a Brute clash againts another brute
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Old 2014-01-22, 13:31   Link #9632
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Basically this is just another a story of Spear and Shield....

Well if a gun cant pierce trough the shield then go cut it with a sword?
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Old 2014-01-22, 13:36   Link #9633
ahmadyazidozi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokoga View Post
I wonder what would happen if Tatsuya lost Regrowth.?
Would he be able to perform other types of Magic, if so how powerful do you think he would be?
He will only be a Demon then
Hahahhaa,

He would still be all Powerful i suppose, its just that he lose his awesome and immortal defense
and any tactics he would use will be all-out-attack-even-before-the-war-starts Nuke
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Old 2014-01-22, 13:44   Link #9634
BadtheGuy
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Quote:
May be you should check out some of the previous post( around page 468)
I did and it didn't really answer me. Like your post just now those posts leave too many maybes and not a convincing answer.

Maybe he just can't target Tomitsuka with Mist Dispersion without getting rid of the shield.

I already said he wouldn't actually use Mist Dispersion even if he could but the thing is we have really no indication that he can. We do have an indication that he can't since the one time he used it, it fizzled against the shield. Now you can say he only targeted the shield... but that isn't convincing.


Quote:
Same goes for Phalanx and Psion armor.
-Phalanx: people don't think eachof his attacks can pierce through many barriers and he can fire faster than shields created.
-Gram Demo: they broke spell since they have higher information strength. But against spell that has higher information strength (another GD for example), it will fail.
-Parade: Tatsuya can see fake and real information body. But he didn't have enough "perceptiveness" to tell the differenccs. If he has, parade will fail.

In conclusion, "defense" is a counter to "attack". Well, isn't that the universal truth?
But it doesn't mean it always success. Strength plays major part = attrition battle.
I'm primarily talking about Decomposition. Specifically Mist Dispersion. Note that Trident might make the diference in all these situations.

Your speculating on how Phalanx would match with Decomposition.

What was said was it would be attrition warfare but that as soon as Tatsuya removed a shield it would be replaced and the battle would be endless. Hence Decomposition vs Phalanx is essentially a stalemate and other factors will determine the outcome of that fight.

Tatsuya can indeed see through Parade if he abandoned his senses and solely focused on it. This is also dangerous. I don't think I said anything implying Parade was a perfect counter? You just have to get around it's effect.

As for Contact-Type Gram Demolition... that is the current discussion. Him using Far Shot has nothing to do with him using Decomposition.

Quote:
But it doesn't mean it always success.
I'm looking at it from the perspective that the shields prevent instant defeat and create a disadvantage for Tatsuya who is otherwise an unmatched badass that can one shot everyone. In that sense they all succeed in creating a situation that isn't normal for him.

That said I don't mean the defenses are perfect. No shield is really a perfect counter just like Decomposition isn't a perfect attack. The shields exist to be broken or gotten through. That is why I said it isn't really a weakness of Decomposition but the advantage of defensive magic.

You can't damage the target until you deal with the shields. Decomposition can't just blow through defenses and kill flawlessly like it does against non magicians or magicians without powerful defenses. Tatsuya has to either remove them or correctly identify in the case of Parade which is difficult.

TLDR: The point I was making is that Tatsuya has to get rid of Defensive Magic before he can use Decomposition. So he probably can't just target through the shields like people suggest.

Quote:
He would still be all Powerful i suppose, its just that he lose his awesome and immortal defense
I guess depending on his interference strength he'd be like Miyuki or someone at best. Or maybe even worse. I'm glad he has his OP abilities. He's the best protag to come out of japan is god knows how long. In Volume 12 when he went to grab Mayumi and actually made a point to not do something cliche and indecent like grab her tits, I was like... "This is why you're the best".
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Old 2014-01-22, 13:54   Link #9635
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Quote:
I guess depending on his interference strength he'd be like Miyuki or someone at best. Or maybe even worse. I'm glad he has his OP abilities. He's the best protag to come out of japan is god knows how long. In Volume 12 when he went to grab Mayumi and actually made a point to not do something cliche and indecent like grab her tits, I was like... "This is why you're the best".
yeah, He is awesome because he is the way he is.
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Old 2014-01-22, 13:58   Link #9636
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Indeed, I'd read 50 volumes of Tatsuya schooling kids and just being Tatsuya.

Even after he gets more broken, I'll just love him even more.
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Old 2014-01-22, 16:37   Link #9637
BW95
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Good news.

Quote:
Volume 12 Epilogue - Today. Dreyakis (talk) 15:22, 22 January 2014 (CST)
Bad news is, there really isn't anything we don't already know.
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Old 2014-01-22, 16:40   Link #9638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadtheGuy View Post
In Volume 12 when he went to grab Mayumi and actually made a point to not do something cliche and indecent like grab her tits, I was like... "This is why you're the best".
Yes, I though for a moment that he would grab her tits (Though that being him could have been hilarious... Imagine Kasumi expression LOL). But his baddaness can't be measure that's why for me he's the most awesome MC I've ever read.
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Old 2014-01-22, 18:30   Link #9639
babbo3d
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I love tat's because if I wanted to see someone struggle i'd watch any other story.
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Old 2014-01-22, 19:24   Link #9640
BadtheGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babbo3d View Post
I love tat's because if I wanted to see someone struggle i'd watch any other story.
Ain't that the truth. Even if he's OP, shit still feels tense and the story/battles flow well and are interesting.

On another note. I don't believe it was ever explained in non vague terms but what do people think is exactly happening when a Magician overuses their magic and dies?
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